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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > Solid-State Generators > Partnered Output Coils
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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils  (Read 384907 times)
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img  PhysicsProf
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #75 on: 2015-01-28, 21:44:45 »
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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-01-28, 21:41:52
@ALL

Verpies has shown one of the things to look for! Over Look Nothing! Take Nothing for Granted! Trust Experiment!

Kind Regards

   Chris Sykes - hyiq.org
   To Reach New Horizons!
-------------------------------
 

I have great respect for you guys - Chris, Itsu, Verpies, Smudge et al. and wish you all the best success.
Trying to catch up on what you're doing here... is there an introductory or summary paper or video?
   
img  verpies
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #76 on: 2015-01-28, 22:05:10 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2015-01-28, 20:03:58
Well I am really talking about delay within the core material and I have certainly measured such delay.  I have also artificially increased such delay by adding coils shunted by capacitors at intervals along the core to create a magnetic delay line.  
Yes, I saw a photo of this experiment. Wasn't this like 20 years ago?

Quote from: Smudge on 2015-01-28, 20:03:58
I have applied this to a transformer using a ring core with a small primary winding on one side and a similar small secondary winding diametrically opposite.  When driven at a frequency where the time delay from pri to sec is a half cycle the output is in antiphase to what it should be, and you won't find that in your transformer handbook.  When the time delay is a quarter cycle the thing acts like a typical quarter wave transmission line transforming impedance but not by turns ratio, an open circuit secondary reflects as a low impedance input and a shorted secondary reflects as a high impedance input.
Yes, that is very indicative of the propagation delay.

Quote from: Smudge on 2015-01-28, 20:03:58
I have in my garage an old  HP 105 scope with a Time Domain Reflectometer plug in.  I used this in my professional career to examine the time delay between coupled coils in air.  It has a rise time specced at 150pS but actually around 50pS so it can resolve spatial separations down to below 1 cm.  
So what propagation speed did you get in ferrite cores?  I assume it was c in air ...which means GHz frequencies for centimeter distances :(
   
img  verpies
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #77 on: 2015-01-28, 22:21:28 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2015-01-28, 18:22:23
I tried to measure the flux coming out perpendicularly out of the core between the 2 partner coils with a Hall Effect sensor, but was not able to detect any field.
Only "in" the airgap of the C-cores i can detect a signal.
So the coils were too close to each other or the Hall sensor must have been either insensitive or oriented perpendicularly to the core.
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #78 on: 2015-01-28, 22:23:14 »
Group: Guest
@Itsu,

If I may say, I don't use the term Bucking Coils as much as Partnered Output Coils.

There is a reason for this!

Bucking Coils are not the only method that works, Bucking Coils is a term too loosely used for real meaning. It does however give rise to the meaning of Magnetic Fields from Each Coil that Oppose each other! To Buck, repel or eject each other... So from this point its a good term to use  :)

Quote from: Itsu on 2015-01-28, 18:22:23
I tried to measure the flux coming out perpendicularly out of the core between the 2 partner coils with a Hall Effect sensor, but was not able to detect any field.
Only "in" the airgap of the C-cores i can detect a signal.

An alternative method to check if my coils are in bucking mode or not was presented by MileHigh on my youtube channel
He proposed to probe the both partner coils with 2 probes with the ground leads at the center point.
He states:   "The outputs should be in phase for bucking mode and 180 degrees out of phase for normal mode."

See here the screenshot of this setup which shows both signals in phase, meaning in bucking mode.

Regards Itsu

I certainly do not want to come to this forum and Criticise others, but if I may say, MileHigh, does not understand, what is going on in these devices! Although he is a smart guy, if I may suggest, that what he says is taken with just as much weight in the other direction  :) I am sorry and I hope this is not taken the wrong way!

A Loose Coupling is Necessary, many do not understand why! Verpies and only a few others here do. It is to allow the Magnetic Fields Time to Build!

Did you try the Circuit I posted?
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:10:05 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #79 on: 2015-01-28, 22:24:39 »
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@ION,

Quote from: ION on 2015-01-28, 18:42:13
When the coils are in "bucking mode" the measured inductance (of the connected pair) will be significantly less by orders of magnitude than when they are in "aiding mode". Just a matter of phasing.

Yes, some work is required to get the best results.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:10:28 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #80 on: 2015-01-28, 22:33:35 »
Group: Guest
@Suudge and ALL

Such a delay does exist and can be increased.

Quote from: Smudge on 2015-01-28, 20:03:58
Well I am really talking about delay within the core material and I have certainly measured such delay.  I have also artificially increased such delay by adding coils shunted by capacitors at intervals along the core to create a magnetic delay line.  I have applied this to a transformer using a ring core with a small primary winding on one side and a similar small secondary winding diametrically opposite.  When driven at a frequency where the time delay from pri to sec is a half cycle the output is in antiphase to what it should be, and you won't find that in your transformer handbook.  When the time delay is a quarter cycle the thing acts like a typical quarter wave transmission line transforming impedance but not by turns ratio, an open circuit secondary reflects as a low impedance input and a shorted secondary reflects as a high impedance input.  This clearly demonstrates that magnetic delay along a core can seriously affect normal transformer operation, so it is not surprising that it also affects bucking coils wound on a common core.

I have in my garage an old  HP 105 scope with a Time Domain Reflectometer plug in.  I used this in my professional career to examine the time delay between coupled coils in air.  It has a rise time specced at 150pS but actually around 50pS so it can resolve spatial separations down to below 1 cm.  I am in no doubt about the near-field time delay even in air.

Smudge  

A common name is: "Delayed Lenz Effect" - http://www.vasantcorporation.com/downloads/Delayed_Lenzs_Law_04-27-2014.pdf

This is not only at High Frequency, it can be at low Frequency also. By Design!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:10:51 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #81 on: 2015-01-28, 22:51:43 »
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@Jeg and All,

Quote from: Jeg on 2015-01-28, 21:01:38

Propelanttech, it is also a fact that by winding all layers starting from same side, the intrinsic capacitance is more evenly distributed between layers.


Yes, this can sometimes seen on the bench, it can make a difference  :)

Quote from: Jeg on 2015-01-28, 21:01:38

Personally I find Itsu's question very important. It has to be studied how E fields can add up. From Emjunkies drawing of the A- vector, I understand that when both secondary coils are the one next to the other in series, then E fields are add up with cw and ccw direction. When they are the one next to the other in parallel, both need to be the same direction cw or ccw. If I am wrong please correct me.


This "Next is to to be sure that the E-field add up....." is key! Very important! I have seen three Coil Configurations work, I have only gone into two of them for reasons of simplicity! Partnered Output Coils can be 1:(CW/CCW) or 2: (CW/CW) in this configuration, one Coil needs to be flipped over relative to the first! This method is possibly easier to start with now looking back on how I have shown what I have shown. I did present this as the First Coil Configuration in my pdf: http://www.hyiq.org/Downloads/Guidelines%20to%20Bucking%20Coils.pdf - P.34

Quote from: Jeg on 2015-01-28, 21:01:38

Yesterday I experienced something which exited me enough. In a yoke core, 200 turns per each secondary, one primary 10T, one feedback coil 10T connected in series with both sec through a diode (Meyer). Mosfet driving at about 5Khz (the lower the stronger), 24V dc power sup. 150mA consumption.
Output without load 1400V dc, (KHz pulses) imposed by the self vibrating frequency of the backing coils. When a cap of 11nf is connected at the output and a small spark gap placed in parallel with cap, then a high rate discharging happens but without affecting the input's consumption. Same behavior like on lower voltages. It is really cool to see it. When spark gap doesn't fire then the stress on secondary coils is high and easily inter arcing! I already destroyed my coils twice. I need to find better way for winding on this specific TV yoke cores as I have plenty of them from recycling. Any suggestions welcomed! :)
    

Jeg, be careful mate  8) Don't damage yourself or your equipment! If I were you, I would increase your input coil turns and drop your Input V down to say 10-12 V. Up to you though! As you say you have already seen other effects that may not be visible at lower freq and Input values.

It really is about "Playing" and "Learning" - I could sit here all day explaining stuff, but at the end of the day, I am learning still also! I don know all this yet. So, nice Work Jeg  O0
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:11:11 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #82 on: 2015-01-28, 23:12:22 »
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Hey Itsu,

I am sorry, I missed something! You said: "No vibration or humming anymore of the C-core halfs" - This is right, you should get exactly the "vibration or humming anymore of the C-core halfs" as you said!

I went back, watched your second video again and I did hear the Vibration, this is good! Sorry, I turned the Sound up more  :-[

Quote from: Itsu on 2015-01-28, 21:22:37

Ok,  tried that configuration, but its no improvement.

No vibration or humming anymore of the C-core halfs, also low voltage still on the output across the 10 ohm resistor.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr_4EgpBE7g&feature=youtu.be


Regards Itsu


In my first device that I stumbled onto these effects, see my output voltage across the coils:
[youtube]iJsVSMQqCOM[/youtube]

My output Voltage was 10.5V

This may sound silly and trivial, but would you mind trying something for me, can you turn 20-30 turns of small AWG wire on the end coil, furthest away from the Input, and add a 1K resistor. Adjust the resistor down and see if this helps? maybe lowest say 20 Ohms.

I wonder if we are seeing an issue in the Core Material. I have seen this before and doing the above did help me.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:11:30 by EMJunkie »
   
img  Propellanttech
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #83 on: 2015-01-28, 23:17:16 »
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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-01-28, 22:51:43

Yes, this can sometimes seen on the bench, it can make a difference  :)

Kind Regards

   Chris Sykes - hyiq.org
   To Reach New Horizons!
-------------------------------

Chris,

Well.....I know you are replying to a lot of people, so I thought I would throw this out for the people interested in making layer separated coils. It is the term I came up with, just to have a nomenclature for the design.

The first image is the spool to wind. Just make sure every time you reach the end you come out and go around the peg the same direction every time(Always go under). When you return to winding, keep going in the same fashion as before.......don't worry it all works out in the end(the spool will always turn the same direction while winding). After you're done...mark the under side wires with a sharpie, and cut the loops. you can then ohm the bundles to see which ends meet which. You could then wire up each similarly directional layer (all odds) in parallel or series. It would take some work....but gives a lot of options on the wiring.

The second image is what the layers are after the loop is cut. Notice they are actually different in winding direction.

James

   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #84 on: 2015-01-28, 23:22:32 »
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@PhysicsProf

Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2015-01-28, 21:44:45
 

I have great respect for you guys - Chris, Itsu, Verpies, Smudge et al. and wish you all the best success.
Trying to catch up on what you're doing here... is there an introductory or summary paper or video?


Welcome! Welcome to everyone here!

Not even up to 5  Pages yet and the contributions are huge already! Thank You Everyone!  :D

@PhysicsProf - I have tried to get it down in the first post: http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2760.msg44707#msg44707

@ALL - Please PM Me if you see any mistakes you can see in my documentation. I have tried to do the best I can to get it right.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:11:45 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #85 on: 2015-01-28, 23:27:52 »
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@James,

Quote from: Propellanttech on 2015-01-28, 23:17:16
Chris,

Well.....I know you are replying to a lot of people, so I thought I would throw this out for the people interested in making layer separated coils. It is the term I came up with, just to have a nomenclature for the design.

The first image is the spool to wind. Just make sure every time you reach the end you come out and go around the peg the same direction every time(Always go under). When you return to winding, keep going in the same fashion as before.......don't worry it all works out in the end(the spool will always turn the same direction while winding). After you're done...mark the under side wires with a sharpie, and cut the loops. you can then ohm the bundles to see which ends meet which. You could then wire up each similarly directional layer (all odds) in parallel or series. It would take some work....but gives a lot of options on the wiring.

The second image is what the layers are after the loop is cut. Notice they are actually different in winding direction.

James



If you don't mind, just for the moment, can we keep this for later on! I really want to keep this subject/topic at its simplest form until we get others getting some good results. Its really important we are making sure we don't over complicate the topic at hand  ;)

This topic/subject can be very hard to grasp! I don't know why  :D

Nice Pics!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:12:03 by EMJunkie »
   
img  Propellanttech
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #86 on: 2015-01-28, 23:30:17 »
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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-01-28, 23:27:52
@James,

If you don't mind, just for the moment, can we keep this for later on! I really want to keep this subject/topic at its simplest form until we get others getting some good results. Its really important we are making sure we don't over complicate the topic at hand  ;)

This topic/subject can be very hard to grasp! I don't know why  :D

Nice Pics!

Kind Regards

   Chris Sykes - hyiq.org
   To Reach New Horizons!
-------------------------------

No problem EMJ.

I think I'll make this information in a new thread just for search possibilities. That way it will be archived for easy access.

Now......please continue!!    :)

James
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #87 on: 2015-01-28, 23:45:38 »
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@ALL,

Any Two Coils that have Opposing Magnetic Fields as a result of our drawing Current is what we need! Fields must Buck! The more Current the More Buck  :) (Goodness can I say there here?)

Try to forget about all other ideologies  ;)
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:12:22 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #88 on: 2015-01-28, 23:56:04 »
Group: Guest
@James,

Quote from: Propellanttech on 2015-01-28, 23:30:17
No problem EMJ.

I think I'll make this information in a new thread just for search possibilities. That way it will be archived for easy access.

Now......please continue!!    :)

James

Its a great idea! Good work, yeah  :)

Keep the coils simple folks, just for the moment. We can explore after we get results!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:12:36 by EMJunkie »
   
img  Groundloop
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #89 on: 2015-01-29, 00:07:52 »
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All,

I have made my two Partnered Output Coils. I did try to make two identical coils,
but it was difficult. One coil is 91.85mH and the other is 91.94mH (Without any
core in them.) I did wind one coil CW and the other coil CCW and did mark the
winding direction with an arrow symbol. Now the question, what way must I
put the coils onto the core to get the correct canceling of the magnetic field?
(WhatWayA.gif or WhatWayB.gif)???

GL.
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #90 on: 2015-01-29, 00:22:34 »
Group: Guest
Hey Groundloop,

Quote from: Groundloop on 2015-01-29, 00:07:52

I have made my two Partnered Output Coils. I did try to make two identical coils,
but it was difficult. One coil is 91.85mH and the other is 91.94mH (Without any
core in them.) I did wind one coil CW and the other coil CCW and did mark the
winding direction with an arrow symbol.


Very Nice! No need to be 100% Close enough for the first try will be fine.

Quote from: Groundloop on 2015-01-29, 00:07:52

Now the question, what way must I
put the coils onto the core to get the correct canceling of the magnetic field?
(WhatWayA.gif or WhatWayB.gif)???


You want to aim for Max Output but at the same time have Magnetic Fields Oppose.

Why is it complicated to grasp... Well each individual Coil will have two fields associated with it in one Cycle. Magnetic Field from the Input and its Own Lenz Law Field. Its this Lenz's Law field that one needs to work with! At the same time one must not Choke off the Input!

Work with Low frequencies! With the Partnered Output Coils Connected to a Load, at low frequencies you should hear a Chatter! Disconnect the Load and the Chatter will go away, or nearly disappear.

Like Verpies said, distance between the coils can be adjusted for better results. I mentioned before also, on ou.com: ou.com thread

Quote

separating the Partnered Output Coils by a small distance is enough!


All devices are a bit different, its hard to exactly pin it all down. One sort of has to "Bring the device to Life" not so much "Expect it to live"  ;)
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:12:58 by EMJunkie »
   
img  Hanon
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #91 on: 2015-01-29, 00:25:03 »
Group: Guest
Hi all,

I don´t have any scope. What can I test with just and ampmeter and a multimeter? Is there any possible test to do with just this equipment?

As for bucking coil concept a very simple example is what Garry Stanley used in his motor. He called it anti-lenz coil  http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5911-garry-stanley-pulse-motor-2.html

Quote
The basis of this motor is effectively a centertap coil with one half removed and refittied the other way round this changes the direction of current flow in the half turned around so it can function as it did, this also most importantly changes the direction of induced flow in this coil which means that the 2 halves of the coil are now opposing each other in the induction or generator mode and thus they cancel each other out equally to nothing.
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #92 on: 2015-01-29, 00:34:31 »
Group: Guest
Hey Hanon! Welcome  ;)

Quote from: Hanon on 2015-01-29, 00:25:03
Hi all,

I don´t have any scope. What can I test with just and ampmeter and a multimeter? Is there any possible test to do with just this equipment?

As for bucking coil concept a very simple example is what Garry Stanley used in his motor. He called it anti-lenz coil  http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5911-garry-stanley-pulse-motor-2.html


You don't need a scope, all this can be done without a scope. Go by feel and gut. Feel the pulsing Coils. Make improvements by feel and by watching the Load and increasing the load. Keep the Load Resistive, not inductive. Try to use loads with minimal Capacitance also.

Yes Sir! You're exactly right. Garry Stanley is another example of the potential of this Technology! So many have achieved amazing results, but I now know why many have not, its not as simple as one thinks. Takes a bit of learning!

Some Coils just don't work! They Choke off the Effect, stop the Charge Carriers from Moving, we need to encourage the Flow of Charge Carriers! "Bring the Device to Life"
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:13:15 by EMJunkie »
   
img  verpies
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #93 on: 2015-01-29, 01:32:06 »

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Quote from: Hanon on 2015-01-29, 00:25:03
I don´t have any scope. What can I test with just and ampmeter and a multimeter? Is there any possible test to do with just this equipment?
Yes, with this equipment you can measure average current and average voltage if you are withing the frequency range of these meters*, but you cannot multiply them together to get the average AC power.
Multiplying average Amps times Volts to obtain average Watts is OK only for DC.  
For AC it is not OK because instantaneous values must be multiplied - not the average ones.
avg(i) * avg (v) <> avg(P)

* Ask Itsu to show you a video what happens when the frequency of the signal is out of range of your meters.
   
img  Groundloop
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #94 on: 2015-01-29, 01:36:41 »
Sr. Member
****

Posts: 336
All,

This configuration works best for me. I use a small oscillator with an output coil on the toroid
to drive the input coil situated between the partnered coils. The partnered coils are wired
as the attached drawing. A 3,5 Watt 12 Volt LED lamp is connected to the partnered coils.
The oscillator itself has a 0,5 Watt 12 Volt LED bulb. I get a little light in the big LED lamp.
So it is easy to try out several coil configurations to see what work best. It's a start...........

GL.
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #95 on: 2015-01-29, 01:57:41 »
Group: Guest
@ALL,

I am going to ask you all to please try the following:


Description:
Two Identical Coils, one Coil flipped over from the other.

The CW/CCW Configuration does work, also CW/CW - Try both configurations - My Drawings were not clear, I apologise!

So the second configuration in my pdf Document is Preferred and the First Configuration is another that can work also!

Point is, please try both configurations to see the differences!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:13:50 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #96 on: 2015-01-29, 02:02:04 »
Group: Guest
@Groundloop,

Nice work! You've got it working, nice to see.

Can you please also try the second configuration. Posted here: Initial Configuration
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:14:04 by EMJunkie »
   
img  Groundloop
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #97 on: 2015-01-29, 02:21:30 »
Sr. Member
****

Posts: 336
Chris,

I will try it tomorrow. It's 0330 at night now, and I need to sleep. :-)

GL.
   
img  Wistiti
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #98 on: 2015-01-29, 02:29:43 »
Group: Guest
Hi all! First,I am realy glad to be here with you. It seem to be a place where people can share with respect.
@Hanon dont worry your not the only one! :) Until now i am testing with some multimeter and a ac/cd clamp meter for the amp... For shure it will not be full proof equipement (more hazardous at high frequency) but it can give a prety good idea if a modification improve the result! O0

I am testing the output of the partnered coil via a bridge rectifier and a 12v 1w incandescent bulb....  Chris does it is ok to rectify the output before the resistive load???

What i find until now is max volt and amp output on load is obtain when:

1-the right frequency is apply to the primary (or trigger coil) First small ferrite yoke from tv, primary: 100t/21awg  each partnered coil: 400t/30awg-------- is best output frequency: 223hz. The second bigger ferrite yoke, primary: 200t/21awg  each partnered coil: 600t/21awg----is best output frequency: 63hz.

2-paper and tape gap the 2 part of the yoke (around 3mm both end) it give to me near 15% more output.

3- the partnered coil connection. I dont know exactly why but for me the big difference is there... The first way Chris show (partnered connect in the middle and the output at the begining and end) did not give me a remarquable output. But the last one he show (yes i have try it before) give me a better output and some strange thing.

Until now i cant not say i have more out than in but i can say that at the right frequency the amps draw on the primary when the load is connected. :)
I have to find a way to lower my primary consuption...

ps: sorry for the mistake in my phrasing...  ...as you can see English is not my mother tong! ;)

Ciao!
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #99 on: 2015-01-29, 02:32:28 »
Group: Guest
Hey Groundloop,

Quote from: Groundloop on 2015-01-29, 02:21:30
Chris,

I will try it tomorrow. It's 0330 at night now, and I need to sleep. :-)

GL.

Yes, please, sleep. Nite  ;) Nice Work GL!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:14:24 by EMJunkie »
   
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