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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > Solid-State Generators > Partnered Output Coils
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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils  (Read 384914 times)
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img  Itsu
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #50 on: 2015-01-28, 09:57:29 »

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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-01-27, 23:19:01
Hi Itsu,

Nice Work again!

from what I can see it looks right! But the output is low so something is wrong!

Two things to try:

1: Try the output connected like so in the attached Circuit.
2: Please try the second configuration in the next Picture. Two Coils identical, one flipped over to the other, wired so E-Field add's.

You should be getting much higher Output. I cant say on output Amps as it depends on the device, V/R = I but this depends on the Output Impedance!

Kind Regards

   Chris Sykes - hyiq.org
   To Reach New Horizons!

Thanks Chris, 

i have the present coils as in the bottom picture upper configuration.
I have some crossover coils on order which are wound the same direction for which i can try the lower configuration.

Regards Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #51 on: 2015-01-28, 10:02:06 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2015-01-28, 09:10:17
What is the distance (D) between these bucking coils?



If these coils really are in opposing mode then a Hall sensor placed between them will sense the flux coming out perpendicularly out of the core as depicted on the diagram above.  However if these coils are in aiding mode then most of the flux will stay inside the core and will not come out.


Distance between the bucking coils is one blue spacer = 1.5mm

I can try the Hall sensor trick tonight,  thanks.

Regards Itsu 
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #52 on: 2015-01-28, 10:08:28 »
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@ALL

This is a little trivial, but I would like to express Point of View!

We all know this Quote from Nikola Tesla:

Quote

Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by a power obtainable at any point of the universe. This idea is not novel. Men have been led to it long ago by instinct or reason; it has been expressed in many ways, and in many places, in the history of old and new. We find it in the delightful myth of Antheus, who derives power from the earth; we find it among the subtle speculations of one of your splendid mathematicians and in many hints and statements of thinkers of the present time. Throughout space there is energy. Is this energy static or kinetic! If static our hopes are in vain; if kinetic — and this we know it is, for certain — then it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of nature.


And so, here we see, Nikola Tesla uses a defined term for those looking for more information, we can study closer the definition of Kinetic:

Quote

Kinetic energy is an expression of the fact that a moving object can do work on anything it hits; it quantifies the amount of work the object could do as a result of its motion.


Nikola Tesla is talking about Electrical Energy, all related to Motion, Velocity = Distance Travelled / Time, Time Rate of Change...

Quote

Electric generators can be called energy converters, as they convert kinetic energy (energy from motion) into electrical energy. The theory behind an electric generator is that the variation of a magnetic field produces an electric current through a wire loop.


We know from experiment that its the Lorentz Force that is involved in the Separation of Charge Carriers.

Here I show the Lorentz Force:
[youtube]kckxzBUxTHg[/youtube]

Here I show Induction Principals, and how the angles of the Lorentz Force Separate Charge Carriers and how a Short Circuit can be achieved if the Conductor sees Force incorrectly:
[youtube]P3Enr6_d3yU[/youtube]

These principals are directly related to the last Post, see the Videos there: http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2760.msg44816#msg44816

We need to think about the Negative effects that an "Electric Generator" experiences, primarily Lenz 's Law and how it can be over come.
 
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:06:54 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #53 on: 2015-01-28, 10:11:39 »
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@Verpies,

Ok. Please feel free to comment on what you think  ;)
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:07:08 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #54 on: 2015-01-28, 10:13:33 »
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@Verpies and All

This is a really good point and adjusting this gap can make a difference depending on your configuration!

Excellent Point Verpies! Have you done this before?  ^-^
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:07:25 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #55 on: 2015-01-28, 10:15:01 »
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Hey Itsu,

Excellent! Thanks  ;)

Verpies is right, sometimes the Gap can change things but you have already tried that, I saw in your Video.

I think the answer to your Coils is the Circuit. I think this will solve the issue.


« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:07:43 by EMJunkie »
   
img  verpies
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #56 on: 2015-01-28, 13:21:16 »

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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-01-28, 10:13:33
Excellent Point Verpies! Have you done this before?  ^-^
Yes, the spacing between opposing coils greatly affects the shape of the magnetic flux between them.
Larger spacing also makes it possible to put sensors between the coils.

This spacing between the coils should not be confused with the core's air gap, which is an entirely different parameter.

P.S.
The Lorentz force will spatially separate positive and negative charges, such as electrons and positrons.  Something has to be moving for this to work - either the charges or the magnetic field.  The strongest charge separating machine is the MAGVID.
Note that, electric current in wires does not consist of opposite streams of electrons and positrons.
   
img  ion
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #57 on: 2015-01-28, 13:49:51 »
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It's turtles all the way down
If we expect charge separation between the bucking coils, capacitors should be used between the bucking coils to allow the charge to accumulate. A direct connection as shown in the prior schematics will kill the charge separation.

I have long pondered this method as a possible explanation for the SM devices. He stressed creating the "worst case scenario" which I interpreted as out of phase windings.

But how then to explain the DC output of his devices? I can only add that an acoustic movement of the coil wires is the key, as this provides the rectification. (an AC signal on bucking coils produces two mechanical pushing (separation) forces in the same direction per cycle, there is no attractive force).

e.g


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img  verpies
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #58 on: 2015-01-28, 13:57:28 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2015-01-27, 23:07:52
What kind of current should we expect through the partner coils?
i = V/(R1 + R2 + 2π*f*LT)

where LT is the total combined inductance:
LT = L1 + L2 – 2*k*(L1*L2)0.5

The closer the coils are, the higher is their coefficient of coupling (k).  When coils are intertwined with each other in the same space then the their coefficient of coupling (k) is the highest (almost 1).
The higher the k, the lower their combined inductance (LT), because coils are in opposition and their individual mutual inductances subtract.
« Last Edit: 2015-01-28, 14:45:34 by verpies »
   
img  Smudge
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #59 on: 2015-01-28, 16:36:41 »

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I wrote a paper in 2012 about the Osamu Ide converter that he presented at the 2012 SPESIF conference.  This used bucking coils, and my original paper considered the effect that a magnetic propagation delay between the two coils would have on the fast transients involved. I concluded that the flux v. current would trace a loop that is traversed clockwise, hence representing an energy gain.

In light of this present discussion I have updated that paper to include an analysis for sine waves.  Surprisingly, taking the classical formula for the inductance of a pair of coils in series that includes the mutual coupling between them, and simply including a propagation delay in that mutual coupling path, the presence of that delay creates a series resistance in the equivalent circuit.  For series-aiding type coupling that resistance is positive indicating an energy loss, and it is well known that such magnetic core effects (magnetic viscosity) produce loss for normal coils where mutual coupling between turns is series-aiding.

However for series-opposing the same analysis produces an effective negative resistance, indicating an energy gain.  This supports EMJ's finding that bucking coils have a unique characteristic, and hopefully my paper will help others in the search for OU.  It also applies to single layer bifilar bucking coils where adjacent turns carry current in opposite directions.  Wound on a core with significant magnetic viscosity these will exhibit energy gain.  Whether that gain cools the core material, or comes from the quantum domain that drives the atomic dipoles remains to be seen.  And whether that gain is sufficient to overcome other losses also remains to be seen, although there seems to be enough evidence that it does.  Hopefully my paper will help in the search for the truth behind all this.  I intend to extend that paper to include the variation of the mutual coupling in respect of separation distance to allow some optimisation of the negative resistance.  Using my derived formula the resistor value is zero at zero separation (because the delay is zero) and is also zero at large separation (because the mutual-inductance coupling is zero), so obviously there is an optimum separation distance.

Smudge 
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #60 on: 2015-01-28, 16:41:33 »

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For those interested here is Osamu Ide's presentation at the 2012 SPESIF conference.
   
img  verpies
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #61 on: 2015-01-28, 17:02:46 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2015-01-28, 16:36:41
I...simply including a propagation delay in that mutual coupling path, the presence of that delay creates a series resistance in the equivalent circuit.  
The mere demonstration of propagation delay in a near-field induction, would be a significant development.  I have never seen it measured.
The far-field propagation delay is already well known and a yawner.

[youtube]4rsu582YjEw[/youtube]
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #62 on: 2015-01-28, 17:56:16 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2015-01-28, 16:41:33
For those interested here is Osamu Ide's presentation at the 2012 SPESIF conference.
The waveform that Ide shows could be an indication of positive EMF or conventional underdamped transient LCR oscillation.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #63 on: 2015-01-28, 18:22:23 »

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I tried to measure the flux coming out perpendicularly out of the core between the 2 partner coils with a Hall Effect sensor, but was not able to detect any field.
Only "in" the airgap of the C-cores i can detect a signal.

An alternative method to check if my coils are in bucking mode or not was presented by MileHigh on my youtube channel
He proposed to probe the both partner coils with 2 probes with the ground leads at the center point.
He states:   "The outputs should be in phase for bucking mode and 180 degrees out of phase for normal mode."

See here the screenshot of this setup which shows both signals in phase, meaning in bucking mode.

Regards Itsu
   
img  ion
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #64 on: 2015-01-28, 18:42:13 »
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It's turtles all the way down
When the coils are in "bucking mode" the measured inductance (of the connected pair) will be significantly less by orders of magnitude than when they are in "aiding mode". Just a matter of phasing.


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img  Propellanttech
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #65 on: 2015-01-28, 18:58:10 »
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I would like to start off, and thank the people who helped get me here. I truly appreciate the effort. The last place will never be visited again.

I'm new with experimenting, but I've followed forums like this in the past. I've also read a lot of different information.

With that said, I had posted on the "other" place this question to EMJ, but I'm sure he never read it. Unfortunately while waiting for the message to be approved (really??) I found the answer, but I'll add to the question.

Last "place" post:
"
I do have a question aimed at EMJ:  Are the coils wound orthocyclic, one left hand, one right hand , and one to match a direction with less wire/bigger AWG to be the "drive" coil?

Orthocyclic to me is defined as: one layer wound (in this example moving to the left) and the following layer is wound back to the original starting point(for this example to the right),this would be stated as two layers and how ever many turns that have occurred. This cycle repeats until all layers and number of turns required are completed. A reverse othocyclic coil would be, in this example, started on the left and be moving to the right. These are only examples in this instance. A coil can be wound any direction, but the reverse would start on the opposite side.  "

Now the addendum: I see your coils are the typical othocyclic winging method, Have you ever tried a non-orthocyclic winding? I'm not sure it will do much, for I'm not positive that magnetic flux has a linear factor to it.  I would define non-orthocyclic as all right hand coils are separate from the left hand coils (every even layer would be connected, and every odd layer would be connected, for even layers are actually moving backwards through the field). But like I stated, no linear component of a magnetic field has been proven to this point (not to me at least).

I have figured a way to wind coils differently (non-orthocyclic), if anyone is interested, and my idea should be quite fast, and easy to modify your current arrangement quickly.

James


Sorry, ignore this post if it could possibly sidetrack the discussion.

« Last Edit: 2015-01-28, 20:02:25 by Propellanttech »
   
img  Itsu
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #66 on: 2015-01-28, 19:55:44 »

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Quote from: ION on 2015-01-28, 18:42:13
When the coils are in "bucking mode" the measured inductance (of the connected pair) will be significantly less by orders of magnitude than when they are in "aiding mode". Just a matter of phasing.


Thanks ION,

that confirms my coils are in bucking mode as the combined inductance measures 10.1mH.
When swapping over one coil leads it changes to 870mH.

Next is to to be sure that the E-field add up.....


Regards itsu
   
img  Smudge
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #67 on: 2015-01-28, 20:03:58 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2015-01-28, 17:02:46
The mere demonstration of propagation delay in a near-field induction, would be a significant development.  I have never seen it measured.
The far-field propagation delay is already well known and a yawner.

Well I am really talking about delay within the core material and I have certainly measured such delay.  I have also artificially increased such delay by adding coils shunted by capacitors at intervals along the core to create a magnetic delay line.  I have applied this to a transformer using a ring core with a small primary winding on one side and a similar small secondary winding diametrically opposite.  When driven at a frequency where the time delay from pri to sec is a half cycle the output is in antiphase to what it should be, and you won't find that in your transformer handbook.  When the time delay is a quarter cycle the thing acts like a typical quarter wave transmission line transforming impedance but not by turns ratio, an open circuit secondary reflects as a low impedance input and a shorted secondary reflects as a high impedance input.  This clearly demonstrates that magnetic delay along a core can seriously affect normal transformer operation, so it is not surprising that it also affects bucking coils wound on a common core.

I have in my garage an old  HP 105 scope with a Time Domain Reflectometer plug in.  I used this in my professional career to examine the time delay between coupled coils in air.  It has a rise time specced at 150pS but actually around 50pS so it can resolve spatial separations down to below 1 cm.  I am in no doubt about the near-field time delay even in air.

Smudge  
   
img  Jeg
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #68 on: 2015-01-28, 21:01:38 »
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Hi@all
Propelanttech, it is also a fact that by winding all layers starting from same side, the intrinsic capacitance is more evenly distributed between layers.

Personally I find Itsu's question very important. It has to be studied how E fields can add up. From Emjunkies drawing of the A- vector, I understand that when both secondary coils are the one next to the other in series, then E fields are add up with cw and ccw direction. When they are the one next to the other in parallel, both need to be the same direction cw or ccw. If I am wrong please correct me.

Yesterday I experienced something which exited me enough. In a yoke core, 200 turns per each secondary, one primary 10T, one feedback coil 10T connected in series with both sec through a diode (Meyer). Mosfet driving at about 5Khz (the lower the stronger), 24V dc power sup. 150mA consumption.
Output without load 1400V dc, (KHz pulses) imposed by the self vibrating frequency of the backing coils. When a cap of 11nf is connected at the output and a small spark gap placed in parallel with cap, then a high rate discharging happens but without affecting the input's consumption. Same behavior like on lower voltages. It is really cool to see it. When spark gap doesn't fire then the stress on secondary coils is high and easily inter arcing! I already destroyed my coils twice. I need to find better way for winding on this specific TV yoke cores as I have plenty of them from recycling. Any suggestions welcomed! :)



    
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #69 on: 2015-01-28, 21:05:33 »
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Hi Verpies,

Quote from: verpies on 2015-01-28, 13:21:16

Yes


Excellent, I am happy you're here then! Glad you're sharing your expertise also  ;)

Quote from: verpies on 2015-01-28, 13:21:16
the spacing between opposing coils greatly affects the shape of the magnetic flux between them.
Larger spacing also makes it possible to put sensors between the coils.

This spacing between the coils should not be confused with the core's air gap, which is an entirely different parameter.

This is exactly right! I made some posts over at the "other" forum on this topic. Most everything I said over there went un-noticed by many! Gapping the Coils is something that can be "Played" with  :)

Quote from: verpies on 2015-01-28, 13:21:16
P.S.
The Lorentz force will spatially separate positive and negative charges, such as electrons and positrons.  Something has to be moving for this to work - either the charges or the magnetic field.  The strongest charge separating machine is the MAGVID.

Yes Sir! This is EXACTLY how it works! All learning, Verpies knows what he is talking about! Get your Fields Up as High as you can in respect to the core! Current must be flowing! Reasonable Voltage must be obtained! Not too High so it is dangerous however!

MAGVID? can you please post a link Verpies?

Quote from: verpies on 2015-01-28, 13:21:16
Note that, electric current in wires does not consist of opposite streams of electrons and positrons.

I agree, look for the best output but its important that each Partnered Output Coil have Opposing Magnetic Fields! Concentrate of your Device and what it's doing!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:08:21 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #70 on: 2015-01-28, 21:18:30 »
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@IRON,

I hear what youre saying. I agree at a later stage we can look into ideas like this!

The Coils have a "Capacity" of their own. This is a Combination of the Magnetic Fields they each store as Energy: 1/2LI^2

As long as Current is Flowing, the device does already have a "Capacity" or its own.

As you've pointed out, this is something that may certainly increase the performance later however.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:08:35 by EMJunkie »
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #71 on: 2015-01-28, 21:22:00 »
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@Verpies,

Quote from: verpies on 2015-01-28, 13:57:28
i = V/(R1 + R2 + 2π*f*LT)

where LT is the total combined inductance:
LT = L1 + L2 – 2*k*(L1*L2)0.5

The closer the coils are, the higher is their coefficient of coupling (k).  When coils are intertwined with each other in the same space then the their coefficient of coupling (k) is the highest (almost 1).
The higher the k, the lower their combined inductance (LT), because coils are in opposition and their individual mutual inductances subtract.

This post is excellent! Thank You!

It extends my post and corrects it at the same time!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:08:51 by EMJunkie »
   
img  Itsu
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #72 on: 2015-01-28, 21:22:37 »

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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-01-28, 10:15:01
Hey Itsu,

Excellent! Thanks  ;)

Verpies is right, sometimes the Gap can change things but you have already tried that, I saw in your Video.

I think the answer to your Coils is the Circuit. I think this will solve the issue.



Kind Regards

   Chris Sykes - hyiq.org
   To Reach New Horizons!


Ok,  tried that configuration, but its no improvement.

No vibration or humming anymore of the C-core halfs, also low voltage still on the output across the 10 ohm resistor.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr_4EgpBE7g&feature=youtu.be


Regards Itsu
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #73 on: 2015-01-28, 21:37:43 »
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@Smudge

Beautiful! Thank You! I will read the paper today!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:09:07 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #74 on: 2015-01-28, 21:41:52 »
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@ALL

Verpies has shown one of the things to look for! Over Look Nothing! Take Nothing for Granted! Trust Experiment!

Quote from: verpies on 2015-01-28, 17:56:16
The waveform that Ide shows could be an indication of positive EMF or conventional underdamped transient LCR oscillation.


« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:09:42 by EMJunkie »
   
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