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Author Topic: Controller No5 With Protection - Looking for Explosions  (Read 231543 times)

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
With the TVS diode there, that shouldn't be a problem, unless I'm missing something.

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I'm thinking about the diode's reverse recovery part of the cycle. On very short pulse widths there may be a shoot-through, or similar, problem.
   

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What would you call an extended period of time stuck in the ON position, it was working fine and then BOOM  ;D
What i have always said is that the FET's fail cold.

I use an analogue Meter to monitor the current through the coil, and it always reads zero while running normally, the digital psu reads 1 or 2 mA under 10kHz depending on the fundamental frequency being driven at, if i go higher the more on time the higher the current.

My analogue meter has 3 taps 50mA, 500mA and 5 amp ranges, like a fool in the last test i did, i pulled the plug from the ammeter 5 amp range and plugged it into the 500mA range when it was running the result was KABOOM, it knocked the non delayed fet out again DOH Note i did not have the TVS across the Drain/Source when it blew for this test.

I thought this was quiet interesting, when i was a tv engineer, there are common failure causes, things we see all the time, with CRT based tv's the common ones are as follows

1) Dry Joint's
2) Overvolting Psu's due to leaking cap's
3) arcing mains plug pins due to double adapter use or extension lead use.

3 is interesting, here in the UK we use 3 pin mains plugs of quiet large size, double adapters and extension leads are quiet poorly made, they rely on each pin of the plug to push into a u shaped brass socket and when old or over used the pins of the plug get black arc spots on, this more often than not destroys the high voltage stage transistor eventually, any noise on the mains despite filtering causes big problems once the voltage gets stepped up to 32kv, i never did fully understand why because there is filtering for the mains then the psu has filtering and regulation and more filtering and then the high voltage circuits have protection as well, yet the poor old line transistor would always go short.
It became a matter of course to check for adapters and extension leads if the line transistor was short and the LOPTX was ringing ok and dry joints were not visible or could not be found.

Anyway going back to my last FET failure above, when i disconnected the Ammeter what possible conditions could i have had on reconnection to cause failure.
Well if the fet was on for 32nS 1000 times a second then current would have been drawn and i guess an arc could have formed on the plug just as i pushed it into the ammeter so why would this cause the FET to blow.?

« Last Edit: 2010-06-02, 11:01:05 by Peterae »
   

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Also my psu is only a 1 amp supply, if i was to turn the fet on forever i am still only driving it with 1 amp max which this fet should be able to handle, so apart from getting hot it should survive, although no doubt my psu has a reservoir cap which i guess for a short period of time could deliver much more current than 1 amp.

guys also the interesting thing was the FET blew as soon as the big sharp pulse appeared, not sure what it is but there is something magical about this pulse, it's either way higher voltage than my equipment shows and probably much sharper than we see also.

Also D's idea about resistor in series with the coil is good. we used this technique to fault find line stages in tv's, we use a 240v AC bulb in series with the primary coil, this loads the psu and allows the line stage to power up for fault finding
   

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WW if the reverse integral diode was burning, surely i would not be reading shorts across my gate as well as drain/source although i guess it depends if the diode is a separate part of the substrate.
   
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The intrinsic diode is not separate.

The problem with it is it may not conduct as soon as the fet turns off. On short pulses the diode may not turn off before the fet turns on.

Plugging the meter in is the same as connecting to the computer? KABOOM-wise?

On your 1A PSU.... on very short pulses the current output maximum can be in the kA.

If the big pulse is what I've said it was all all along, it is perpendicular to the first and delayed pulses. Replace the coil core with a short piece of wire and scope across that. Disregard the fact the short piece of wire appears to be a 'short circuit'. If your scope shows a high voltage pulse then replace the short piece of wire with a closed wire loop of a single turn. The fets should stop blowing.
 
   

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Also something i find interesting is that with the short pulse into the coil see picture below, the neo magnet wants to pull into the alignment shown in the picture if placed 90 degrees from it's pictured position, now i can understand this if i had a dc voltage across the coil, and i do know i am only pulsing it with dc, but such a short pulse pulls the magnet round slightly(Quiet a weak pull) as if there is no collapse of the field or reversal of field to null the pull on the magnet, also interesting is i can hear the fundamental frequency it's being driven at, it starts off quiet and gradually increase in level as the phase increases, which again makes sense as the phase progresses we end up with 2 times the on period as the pulses separate, but the appearance of the sharp pulse doesn't really seem to alter the pitch that much, which to me indicates the driven energy causing the noise does not seem to increase dramatically when the pulse is present.
   
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Increasing the 'effective on period' without increasing the energy required to do it would be OU.

   

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Now that's an interesting thought there WW, with a fundamental frequency at 5khz i can hardly measure any current so it would be hard to tell if the current goes down with the pulse, but maybe worth me trying a few things to see whats going on with the current, maybe try using my uA dig meter.
   

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Here's a video of phase delay, showing scope pulse and current.

I am using Controller 5 with TVS on drain/source but with no cap and resistor on gate.
The idea behind the test is to show current consumption during the pulse event, ok i know i shouldnt use a DVM for showing pulsed current but it's all relative  ;D
Scope shows pulse
DVM shows dc current uA scale
Pic shows phase delay nS

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B8marx-LRw[/youtube]
   

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Now this one is interesting.

This time i have plugged a mike into the laptop and adjusted the level so i dont get feedback and so the camera can record it.
The fundamental frequency is near 5kHz audible range.

Now listen to this  ;D Look at the way the noise increases with the pulse present, now using my ear with the magnet near to the coil i can hear the 5kHz gradually increase but nothing like the microphone is picking up especially the way it increases with the pulse, my ear does not hear this sharp increase only a gradual increase from 0 delay to 255 delay, so therefore the mike is picking up the fundamental frequency 5kHz by some other means other than sound waves.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXEtQWwXuv4[/youtube]
   

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OK The noise only seems present when i have the scope connected as well as the mike, so there must be a sort of feedback involved between the scope connected to the usb port and the strange sound picked up by the mike.
   

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Also something i find interesting is that with the short pulse into the coil see picture below, the neo magnet wants to pull into the alignment shown in the picture if placed 90 degrees from it's pictured position, now i can understand this if i had a dc voltage across the coil, and i do know i am only pulsing it with dc, but such a short pulse pulls the magnet round slightly(Quiet a weak pull) as if there is no collapse of the field or reversal of field to null the pull on the magnet, also interesting is i can hear the fundamental frequency it's being driven at, it starts off quiet and gradually increase in level as the phase increases, which again makes sense as the phase progresses we end up with 2 times the on period as the pulses separate, but the appearance of the sharp pulse doesn't really seem to alter the pitch that much, which to me indicates the driven energy causing the noise does not seem to increase dramatically when the pulse is present.

You can see it better with a compass.  On the most basic level of explanations, there is a force perpendicular to the wire.

Also, if you use 10kv and break the wire so that you can place the compass between the ends, the compass will align to be parallel to the wire rather than perpindicular to it.

Now, does the compass or magnet align itself because it is magnetic or because it is conductive?
   

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I have now started increasing the fundamental drive frequency and as before with controller 4 above 350-400kHz i do start getting the crashing at 50 volts, now this is good because now i maybe able to start the crackling if all goes to plan.

As before over 350-400kHz the first pulse sharpens dramatically to the size of the large pulse as the frequency increases.

I believe the sharpening of the pulses due to frequency drive increase is related to the crashing problem which leads to the explosions occurring.It's all down to getting sharp pulses and then moving them in nS delay steps to phase them.


   

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Now that's an interesting thought there WW, with a fundamental frequency at 5khz i can hardly measure any current so it would be hard to tell if the current goes down with the pulse, but maybe worth me trying a few things to see whats going on with the current, maybe try using my uA dig meter.

Keep in the back of your mind that "total current" includes all forms, not just "conduction current".  So, when you see OU based on measurement of "conduction current", the mystery goes away when you add in the other forms of current.  Moving space is the same as moving a charge and is therefore a current and can appear as both a conduction current and a displacement current.
   

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Now listen to this  ;D Look at the way the noise increases with the pulse present, now using my ear with the magnet near to the coil i can hear the 5kHz gradually increase but nothing like the microphone is picking up especially the way it increases with the pulse, my ear does not hear this sharp increase only a gradual increase from 0 delay to 255 delay, so therefore the mike is picking up the fundamental frequency 5kHz by some other means other than sound waves.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXEtQWwXuv4[/youtube]
'

is it a capacitive mic?
   

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It's an electret microphone, but as stated after that post the noise seems to be related to the scope being powered up in the laptop usb port, i am currently not sure why this is, it maybe because with the scope powered down but scope probes still connected puts some sort of different load across the coil, i know when i power up the scope i hear relays click and also when different ranges are selected also.
OR
it maybe just some sort of weird feedback.
   

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It's an electret microphone, but as stated after that post the noise seems to be related to the scope being powered up in the laptop usb port, i am currently not sure why this is, it maybe because with the scope powered down but scope probes still connected puts some sort of different load across the coil, i know when i power up the scope i hear relays click and also when different ranges are selected also.
OR
it maybe just some sort of weird feedback.


what if you change the switch on the scope probe to 10x?
   
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You can see it better with a compass.  On the most basic level of explanations, there is a force perpendicular to the wire.

Also, if you use 10kv and break the wire so that you can place the compass between the ends, the compass will align to be parallel to the wire rather than perpindicular to it.

Now, does the compass or magnet align itself because it is magnetic or because it is conductive?

I found this repeatable on my bench when you shared it a couple of years ago. I also found it true that the needle doesn't have to be a compass. You can use a spinning needle (conductor, magnetized or not) to map out charge fields between two points.

Peterae, what is the polarity of that magnet in the photo and which end of the coil is going to positive PSU?
   

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Right hand side of that picture with the coil goes to positive psu.
but i dont know which pole on the magnet is north, and i dont have a compass to hand, maybe another day.
   

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These pictures show how the first pulse sharpens up with different drive frequency's.

First one is a snap @ 100kHz
2nd one is a snap @400kHz

and the interesting thing is my lap top is doing weird things without any phase delay and just the sharp single pulse on above 400kHz, and when i carried on winding up i heard the coil start crackling until i lost my bottle and switched off LOL.

   

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does the noice change when the scope probe switch is changed from 1x to 10x?
   

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Here's a weird effect.
at 650kHz drive frequency the magnet starts banging against the coil, this was with the scope connected and powered by the laptop.

When i disconnected the laptop from the scope the noise level dropped and the magnet stopped banging against the coil but i could still hear the banging noise just much quiet, i then disconnected the scope probe from the scope and powered up and still had the quiet banging noise the same, but when i disconnected the unterminated scope probe from the coil end the noise stopped totally.

Interestingly with the scope connected to the laptop(Running on battery only) as in the video when i touched the heat sinks on the fets it stopped totally and the heat sink is isolated from the fet drain DOH very strange.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6MBs4ohGy4[/youtube]
   
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Interestingly with the scope connected to the laptop(Running on battery only) as in the video when i touched the heat sinks on the fets it stopped totally and the heat sink is isolated from the fet drain DOH very strange.

Not at all  ;D

Your body soaked up much of any charge collected by the heat sinks. The new discharge path through your body is providing a virtual ground. Your heat sinks are floating?

edit:

Just remembered... most folks tie one side of power bus to a chassis ground. I avoid that, personally, and connect heat sinks, transformer cores, etc. to chassis only.

Am I correct in stating -- The frequency of the 'clicks by magnet application' does not change with a change of magnet proximity to the coil? The only time this frequency changes is when you change the polar orientation between the magnet and coil?
   

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Quote
Your body soaked up much of any charge collected by the heat sinks. The new discharge path through your body is providing a virtual ground. Your heat sinks are floating?

My heatsinks are floating not connected to anything.

I have no grounding that i know of, but all my 0v lines are tied together, but the scope earth lead which is on one end of the coil, is connected to the scope which i guess is also connected to the usb metal or earth which is also connected to my laptop, so my laptop is in effect connected to one side of the coil  ::)

Quote
Am I correct in stating -- The frequency of the 'clicks by magnet application' does not change with a change of magnet proximity to the coil? The only time this frequency changes is when you change the polar orientation between the magnet and coil?

No the magnet has no effect on the clicks frequency what so ever it just makes them louder to my ear.

   
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