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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Theory and Learning Center > bemf > Flux Gate Interrupter, BEMF Redirector
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Author Topic: Flux Gate Interrupter, BEMF Redirector  (Read 335794 times)
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img  T-1000
Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #100 on: 2014-11-25, 19:32:22 »
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Quote from: gyula on 2014-11-25, 19:24:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYvP7VuFmNo

The http://youtu.be/WYvP7VuFmNo?t=1m32s is exactly what should be in your generator when the coil is shorted. So the iron bar will fly through the coil and magnet without any resistance... :)

Cheers!
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #101 on: 2014-11-25, 19:56:09 »
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Hi T-1000,

In the setup at 1:32 you refer to, the iron bar is attached to the left hand side magnet. So you mean that when there is a certain air gap between the left hand side magnet and the iron bar, then a similar neutral state is achieved between the two facing repel magnets, right?  If yes, I can agree with that, however I wonder why the coil is to be shorted? What benefit can a shorted coil give in such setup?  You meant a load which could be a short too?

Thanks,  Gyula
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #102 on: 2014-11-25, 20:02:44 »
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Correct, the iron bar has to be spaced betwen magnet and coil.
The shorted coil is due its Lenz reaction to become alternating magnet so you can find best distance from iron bar then. The open coil does not create any opposing magnetic field...
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #103 on: 2014-11-25, 20:44:18 »
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Hi T-1000,

Okay, I understand: you meant the short to find the best distance from the iron bar. This did not turn out from your previous post... and sorry that I am not a mindreader.  :D

Cheers
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #104 on: 2014-11-25, 23:56:42 »
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Quote from: gyula on 2014-11-25, 20:44:18
Okay, I understand: you meant the short to find the best distance from the iron bar. This did not turn out from your previous post... and sorry that I am not a mindreader.  :D


My understanding is that the iron bar "keeper" or magnetic shunt moves into position in such a way that it bypasses the magnet flux going through the coil from the stationary magnets which creates an EMF in the coils as they try to collapse.  This EMF then hits the electrical load and instantaneously creates a back EMF against the coils.  But where does this back EMF go?  It goes through the magnetic shunt, along with the flux from the stationary magnets.  And presto, change-o, you have eliminated Lenz Law on your generator.

If I'm mistaken in this mode of operation, please advise.
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #105 on: 2014-11-26, 00:48:26 »

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Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014-11-25, 23:56:42

My understanding is that the iron bar "keeper" or magnetic shunt moves into position in such a way that it bypasses the magnet flux going through the coil from the stationary magnets which creates an EMF in the coils as they try to collapse.  This EMF then hits the electrical load and instantaneously creates a back EMF against the coils.  But where does this back EMF go?  It goes through the magnetic shunt, along with the flux from the stationary magnets.  And presto, change-o, you have eliminated Lenz Law on your generator.

If I'm mistaken in this mode of operation, please advise.
Sooo many configs I want to try with this. Like does the neutral zone exist with non ferrous materials?
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #106 on: 2014-11-26, 09:39:17 »

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Quote from: gyula on 2014-11-25, 19:24:00
snip....

I mention all this because if you think there is a difference between the neutral zone created in front of a horse shoe and that of the setup you simulated, then could you simulate the horse shoe setup too? If you think there is no any difference, then no need for simulating the horse shoe magnet with the keeper in front of it.

I would certainly prefer using the horse shoe magnet setup (or substituting the horse shoe with two magnets + a soft iron yoke to reduce cost) because much less stray flux is created, compared to either the setups shown in the first video above or in your simulation.

Have you checked in your simulation or can the simulation indicate any neutral position for the iron when the soft iron armature has no induced poles at it edges (at a certain distance)?

Thanks,  Gyula

Hi Gyula,

The simulator I use is the free one (FEMM) and it is a 2D simulator.  IOW it actually simulates something that is infinitely long in the third dimension (into or out of the screen).  Although it is possible to create a horseshoe shape that horseshoe is infinitely thick.  It is not possible to examine something that is above or below the horseshoe, only something opposite the poles (and that something is also infinitely long on that third dimension).

It is certainly possible to adjust the spacing in my simulation to reach the point where there are no flux lines emanating from the "ends" of the ends of the soft iron, thus indicating a zero pole there, but how do you define the "end" since you will find flux lines near those ends.  In all these situations it is not possible to define a point pole, the "pole" is always spread out over a distance.  The observation of a zero pole depends very much on how it is being observed and that brings in the position and size of the other object near that pole (which could be another thin piece of iron or the pole face of another magnet).  Gary had his other object directly opposite the "end" and so deduced a zero pole there, but move that object to one side (like the shield being discussed in this forum) so that it is seeing more of the flat surface of the iron and then the zero pole condition is different.

Smudge
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #107 on: 2014-11-26, 12:14:12 »
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Dear Smudge,

Thanks for your kind answer, I disregarded a little bit the limitations of 2D simulators.

Regarding the definition of the ends: I meant as you wrote i.e. there would be no flux lines emanating from the very 'ends' of the ends of the soft iron when the soft iron is positioned exactly in the neutral line or zone.
It is okay that near the edges (i.e. moving a flux sensor probe from the very edge towards the centre of the iron lengthwise), more and more flux lines start to appear. I agree also that moving the 'object' (soft iron piece - or 'shield') towards one side, the zero pole condition changes.

Gyula
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #108 on: 2014-11-26, 14:05:03 »
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Hi Matt,

I think that the mode of operation could be very much like you have described.  However, I think we have to consider the back EMF flux as a possible Lenz-effect candidate because it comes back from the coil and should work against not only the induced flux in the soft iron but against the flux field in the air gap around the iron, the flux coming from the magnets in both cases. However, it seems (as I imagine) that the counter flux from the coil would be able to reduce the overall flux available from the magnets but this effect would influence the free passing of the soft iron through the coil only a little. This is why T-1000 mentioned above to tinker with distance between coil and soft iron (as well as with the size of the iron lengthwise I suppose).

Question is that this supposedly no Lenz (or low Lenz) setup is able to produce COP > 1 results. Only careful build and test can give a correct answer.

Gyula
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #109 on: 2014-11-26, 14:15:12 »
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Quote from: gyula on 2014-11-26, 14:05:03
Hi Matt,

I think that the mode of operation could be very much like you have described.  However, I think we have to consider the back EMF flux as a possible Lenz-effect candidate because it comes back from the coil and should work against not only the induced flux in the soft iron but against the flux field in the air gap around the iron, the flux coming from the magnets in both cases. However, it seems (as I imagine) that the counter flux from the coil would be able to reduce the overall flux available from the magnets but this effect would influence the free passing of the soft iron through the coil only a little. This is why T-1000 mentioned above to tinker with distance between coil and soft iron (as well as with the size of the iron lengthwise I suppose).

Question is that this supposedly no Lenz (or low Lenz) setup is able to produce COP > 1 results. Only careful build and test can give a correct answer.

Gyula

To use Lenz for your advantage the coil should go into kind of resonance state under load and - the iron bar should get opposite polarity from next magnet to it after covering coil core like in my drawing http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2678.0;attach=15567 So the magnetic pole change in coil will become again same as magnetic pole in iron bar which will start pushing it away and that will create rotor motive force if the current is less in the coil when iron bar approach it than when it goes to next magnet on opposite poilarity away from coil.
Also the magnetic source are still magnets and as soon as magnetic polarity change happens you might expect different polarity reaction in coil so with careful arrangement you should get generator-motor on same coils.

The explanations might not give you full view what will happen and the best asnwer is in actual build... "The seeing is believing" - and I agree with that :)
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #110 on: 2014-11-26, 14:36:02 »
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Quote from: gyula on 2014-11-26, 14:05:03
However, I think we have to consider the back EMF flux as a possible Lenz-effect candidate because it comes back from the coil and should work against not only the induced flux in the soft iron but against the flux field in the air gap around the iron, the flux coming from the magnets in both cases.

Something else I haven't fully thought through is the direction of the back EMF.

When the magnetic shunt moves into position between the inner static poles, it magnetically connects a north with a south.  This shunt also connects the back EMF flux from the coil, pole to pole.  What I don't know and can't quite visualize at the moment is if this shunt neutralizes a north/south from the permanent magnets with a south/north from the coil, or if it adds to the flux--both north/south in the same direction through the shunt.  Being certain of these two polarities would allow us to better understand its operation and how best to physically configure it.  My hunch is the two polarities meet at the shunt reversed from each other, which would mean the overall force effect on the moving shunt is zero when the coils are loaded.  When the coils are not loaded, we should see the cogging effect as the shunts try to lock in position between the inner stator poles, since this is a shorter and probably stronger flux path then going by way of two iron bars radially and through the outer stator ring.


What I do know is if I can get my hands on some sheets of silicon steel, I have a guy here locally that can cut these laminates with his water jet cutter.  I can do the CAD work to compose a couple designs and assemble a prototype generator.  All I need is the metal and some time and we will have our answer.  I have looked at modifying existing generators and have run into several roadblocks.  At the moment it appears building a prototype from scratch should be far easier and we can implement the concepts directly as we see them.  Then we can test and optimize until we have something that fully demonstrates what this concept is capable of.
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #111 on: 2014-11-26, 14:45:51 »
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Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014-11-26, 14:36:02
What I do know is if I can get my hands on some sheets of silicon steel, I have a guy here locally that can cut these laminates with his water jet cutter.  I can do the CAD work to compose a couple designs and assemble a prototype generator.  All I need is the metal and some time and we will have our answer.  I have looked at modifying existing generators and have run into several roadblocks.  At the moment it appears building a prototype from scratch should be far easier and we can implement the concepts directly as we see them.  Then we can test and optimize until we have something that fully demonstrates what this concept is capable of.

Yes, the build from scratch is the best option for process understanding.
You can take http://alt-nrg.org/files/selfrunning_free_energy_device_muller_motor_generator_romerouk_version1_1.pdf as the base then put magnets couples instead of coils in side disk with arrangement we are talking here and put keeper iron bars on rotor. The coils cores should be in the center between two magnetic poles on opposite side disk and the rotor iron keeper bars should cover coil cores first before locking in between two magnetic poles of magnets. The rest of stuff should be easy, when you will have coils mounted, add 2 diodes in series for one current direction on the 1 wire of coil and 2 diodes in parallel to opposite current direction to shunt 2 diodes in series. Make sure the current polarity match to flow over 2 diodes in series when iron bar is approaching coil. So that is the basics :)
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #112 on: 2014-11-27, 10:35:38 »

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Off my small coil I'm now getting 140v and using a MOT primary I'm dimly lighting a 12 0.1A incandescent. No noticeable bemf not measured yet I tried to but as you will see in the vid I'm currently uploading I had some err issues
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #113 on: 2014-11-27, 12:31:03 »
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Quote from: JimBoot on 2014-11-27, 10:35:38
No noticeable bemf not measured yet

Very good.  Sounds really encouraging.


I spent at least 20 hours working from these two base CAD drawings trying to find the right combination of where to put the magnetic shunts.  The blue hatch is the region where they go.  Getting closer to finding a good combination where the coils charge and then immediately get shunted without positions where there could be a lot of cogging.  BTW, the center hole isn't for a shaft, it's just a reference for the width of the poles.  Also, my idea for the output coils is to wrap them around the outside stator, fitted into the notches between poles.

By all means if you have some ideas, print these out, doodle on them and scan them back so we can have a look.
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #114 on: 2014-11-27, 12:48:49 »

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Thanks matt,
I think this has real potential. I need a better rig though.  Need to find a local laminated steel purveyor.

Tool up boys, this thing is real
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #115 on: 2014-11-27, 13:12:55 »
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Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014-11-27, 12:31:03
Very good.  Sounds really encouraging.


I spent at least 20 hours working from these two base CAD drawings trying to find the right combination of where to put the magnetic shunts.  The blue hatch is the region where they go.  Getting closer to finding a good combination where the coils charge and then immediately get shunted without positions where there could be a lot of cogging.

If you choose rotor ant stator amount of positions to be even/even there always will be cogging. In Muller design there is even/odd configuration which allows balancing of magnets attraction to both sides and you might modify cad drawing according to this.

Cheers!
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #116 on: 2014-11-27, 13:14:53 »
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Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014-11-27, 12:31:03
Very good.  Sounds really encouraging.


I spent at least 20 hours working from these two base CAD drawings trying to find the right combination of where to put the magnetic shunts.  The blue hatch is the region where they go.  Getting closer to finding a good combination where the coils charge and then immediately get shunted without positions where there could be a lot of cogging.  BTW, the center hole isn't for a shaft, it's just a reference for the width of the poles.  Also, my idea for the output coils is to wrap them around the outside stator, fitted into the notches between poles.

By all means if you have some ideas, print these out, doodle on them and scan them back so we can have a look.



Finally...someone sees light at the end of this song and dance.  The image you have is excellent.  My advice...weld that iron to the wound stator.  That's right, do not rotate the iron, use it to make a short circuit, then induce directly into it via strong magnets in your rotor.  The rotor field can move.  This gives you a transformer, where the primary (the rotor field, and secondary, the stator field, are isolated from one another via the iron.  You can pull from the coils without back drag, up till you reach saturation of the iron.  Once the iron is saturated, it behaves as if its part of the air gap, and you have drag reintroduced.

You can test this without modifying a single motor.  Grab your Bedini wheel, and spin it past a transformer, see for yourself.  This is not the way forward gentlemen, we should be investing this time and energy in comprehending Lenz.  I am called delusional when I make such comments so......to each his own.  



Regards
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #117 on: 2014-11-27, 13:26:51 »
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Quote from: Erfinder on 2014-11-27, 13:14:53
My advice...weld that iron to the wound stator.  That's right, do not rotate the iron, use it to make a short circuit, then induce directly into it via strong magnets in your rotor.  The rotor field can move.  This gives you a transformer, where the primary (the rotor field, and secondary, the stator field, are isolated from one another via the iron.
For MEG or similar there is complete different story and the most simple way for everyone to understand is in mechanics. Also the iron bar between 2 magnetic poles becomes alternating magnet when it switches from one polarity to another and in resonance it is possible to have the coil always deflecting that iron bar before each polarity change cycle on it. The main point there is to get something in middle between coil and magnet which will be changing magnetic polarities in way where net drag (same magnetic poles deflection and different poles attraction) between any of sides (magnet or coil) from that middle keeper goes down to 0 force...
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #118 on: 2014-11-27, 13:39:15 »
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Quote from: T-1000 on 2014-11-27, 13:26:51
For MEG or similar there is complete different story and the most simple way for everyone to understand is in mechanics. Also the iron bar between 2 magnetic poles becomes alternating magnet when it switches from one polarity to another and it in resonance it is possible to have the coil always deflecting that iron bar before each polarity change cycle on it. The main point there is to get something in middle between coil and magnet which will be changing magnetic polarities in way where drag (same magnetic poles deflection and different poles attraction) between any of sides (magnet or coil) from that middle keeper goes down to 0 force...


I take it you are serious, I am too.  I am not shooting off at the mouth, or from the hip.  I am speaking from experience.  Got the rig thrown up on the table, just for old time sake, no pics, this is old school, everyone should know this.  Back in my B+denini days, I built a pulse motor using a transformer as the motor coil, back then, like many are now, I was trying to beat the shit out of Lenz. Eventually I beat the fucker, but that's not the point, you got jack if you get rid of Lenz, we all have to cross that bridge.  Fact is, you can pulse an unmodified transformer, and the rotor will run like it does when you run your rotor past a standard solenoid.  I never told Tinman, but I considered this as a cheesy, lazy mans version of his L.A.G.  You can tune the remaining coil so that you can draw from it without reflection if that's your cup o tea....was mine, but then I started thinking about the bigger picture. 

Try dusting off an old MOT and giving this a twirl.....then if you like it and I am sure you will, who wouldn't, get you a steel tube and weld it to the inside of your induction motor's stator.  Fabricate yourself a decent rotor and be Lenz free till you saturate the steel.  There are better things to do with ones time and resources in this regard, but as I stated in my last post...to each his own.


Regards
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #119 on: 2014-11-27, 20:59:10 »
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Quote from: Erfinder on 2014-11-27, 13:39:15
... get you a steel tube and weld it to the inside of your induction motor's stator.  Fabricate yourself a decent rotor and be Lenz free till you saturate the steel.

This is definitely going to get some more of my attention.    O0

Starting with this image:
« Last Edit: 2014-11-28, 05:16:33 by Matt Watts »
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #120 on: 2014-11-28, 05:45:20 »
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Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014-11-27, 20:59:10
This is definitely going to get some more of my attention.    O0

Starting with this image:

Yup....nice one!  Before you invest in that direction....acquire the following.

1x MOT
1x rotor with magnets
1x scope
wire for making connections


Fabricate a stand for the rotor, position it over the MOT, give the rotor a spin, watch scope, drop your head in shame...because its that simple.  It's not the ideal method, this method doesn't aid one in ones comprehension of the law, you just delay your education till the iron saturates and you are forced to start looking for a solution to the problem that you didn't get to the root of the first time.  It gets your foot in the door, it does get you thinking.....it got me thinking.  All this talk about moving the iron between the magnet and coils is pure entertainment, its not necessary.  The law must be  understood, once it is, you recognize what you have done by placing the coils inside a magnetic shunt.

Only after you have played around with the rotor and MOT for a while, and are satisfied that a scaled up version in the form of a converted induction machine are the way to go, do your thing, always keep in mind, that Lenz cannot be ignored, and even here, this law will be, must be adhered to.


Regards
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #121 on: 2014-11-28, 10:47:10 »
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Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014-11-27, 20:59:10
This is definitely going to get some more of my attention.    O0

Starting with this image:
Looks good for 8/8 coils and magnets on stator. On top of that you will need 9 iron bars on rotor for balancing magnetic forces. ;)

@Erfinder
I think it would be good if you would create separate topic and put all your descriptions and drawings/scope shots there. So the things would not get mixed up in single thread...

Cheers!
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #122 on: 2014-11-28, 11:11:53 »

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Had some catastrophic collapses of my rig a few times but i can report lighting an incandescent brighter now and not seeing or hearing any extra load on the battery. I have two coils hooked up and im not measuring volts anymore just looking to see how bright i can get the bulb. I think im getting close to unity but will not get back to this now until sun night my time. Certainly very impressed with the results thus far. Still running coils perpendicular to rotor but ihave also added two steels to the stator running perpendicular that i plonk the coils on. This saw a  jump of 40% in volts.  I then get another boost when i connect the steels with a third  so they form a horseshoe  perpendicular to the the motor. I think another two or three coils and ill be ready for a self runner :)
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #123 on: 2014-11-28, 13:33:18 »
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Quote from: T-1000 on 2014-11-28, 10:47:10
@Erfinder
I think it would be good if you would create separate topic and put all your descriptions and drawings/scope shots there. So the things would not get mixed up in single thread...

Cheers!


No thanks... not interested in starting another go nowhere fast thread of my own....I have said what I wanted to say and the message was well received....
   
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Re: Flux Interrupter, BEMF Eliminator « Reply #124 on: 2014-11-28, 14:45:25 »

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