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Author Topic: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water  (Read 96840 times)
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img  Tommey Reed
Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #125 on: 2014-10-30, 22:44:56 »
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Hi Chet,

I understand, but I just want to keep people from jumping off the bridge and find it's a long way down to hit bottom.

Stirling is playing us all, he has a history of doing this. I talk to a friend that call Canada about this company. So far no information yet.

I'm not going to waste my time on this forum, but will do some future experiments on the James Hardy project.

Tom...
   
img  Tommey Reed
Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #126 on: 2014-10-30, 23:39:02 »
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Hi All,

This is a update on Stirling Allan web site.

http://pesn.com//2014/10/30/9602560_Role_of_Pelton-Wheel_in_GDS-Technologies-water-generator/

http://www.fourcea.com/category_s/1830.htm

Question, if Greg show the inside of the generator running, but the turbine was not spinning.

Tom
« Last Edit: 2014-10-31, 02:03:02 by Tommey Reed »
   
img  Tommey Reed
Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #127 on: 2014-10-31, 11:06:04 »
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Hi All.

Ok, I found enough data on the turbine to clear this up asp.

First of all if you seen the Video where Greg Potter was showing the system running with the top off, you can clearly see the turbine generator cooling fan not turning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEqSuTOKUEg

5:00 you can clearly see the turbine not turning.

This is the turbine:
http://www.fourcea.com/category_s/1830.htm

    
Micro Home Power Water PMA Generator and Pelton Wheel 1000-3000 Watts, 12-36 VDC eBay TALK: Get answers and conn
List Price: $864.77 Inc GST
Our Price: $540.48 Inc GST
Savings: $324.29
   

Pelton Wheel and PMA Generator set. These two products were designs to work with 1000 to 3000 watts output, from 12 to 36 VDC for charging batteries in Home Power systems. Note that this is an AC generator and you need to purchase your own 3-phase full wave rectifier to convert the AC output to DC for charging batteries. You can find 3-phase rectifiers and Charge Controllers on our site
Pelton Wheel Part Number ME0903.
PM Generator ME1016 Rev A.

The Pelton wheel has die cast aluminum cups for many years of product life.. There are 12 cups. The generator uses Ceramic magnets and has over 85% efficiency, much hither than a standard car alternator which is usually 60%. The Pelton Wheel mounts directly onto the PM Generator shaft with 4 x M5 mounting bolts (bolts not included but can be purchased from Us or a local hardware store).

Designed for use on your own Pico Hydro Projects. You will also need to build a water box and add a nozzle, plus you will need a 3-phase full wave rectifier and a charge controller.

Easily provides 1000 watts of power with one nozzle, 2000 watts with two nozzles. With one 3/4 inch nozzle and 28 PSI (65 feet), 80 gallons per minute, it provides 500 watts output. You can add up to 4 nozzles.

So if this generator produce 500w of power it says that you would need:
28 psi @ 80GPM = 500w output
But:
28psi x 80gal/1714 =1.3 hp or 974watts to produce 500 watts where is this free energy?

I see it this way, input 975w  and waste this energy to produce 500w output not something anyone would buy.

I will not comment on this GDS project any more, It's a waste of time.

Tom C.C
« Last Edit: 2014-10-31, 14:46:24 by Tommey Reed »
   
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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #128 on: 2014-10-31, 14:48:10 »

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Hi Tom

Don't think much of that site, all the model numbers are the same but have different description and price, and talking of price, I have seen the same for just under 200euros complete, whatever they are all made in China ;D

regards

Mike 8)


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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #129 on: 2014-10-31, 14:57:42 »

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img  Chet K
Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #130 on: 2014-11-03, 13:48:30 »
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@All
Spoke with Mr.Potter
He will allow a black box test of the device ,it will be arranged in Mid December.

Thx
Chet
   
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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #131 on: 2014-11-03, 15:13:46 »
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Quote from: Chet K on 2014-11-03, 13:48:30
@All
Spoke with Mr.Potter
He will allow a black box test of the device ,it will be arranged in Mid December.

Thx
Chet

Good work, Chet!  
Now we have the opportunity to plan WHAT TESTS could be done on a black box, to test for validity.
First, we would want to do a LONG run, say 10 hours, with a resistive load near capacity.  So if we are testing the 3kW machine, we would want to have (say) two 1500 W heaters running from it constantly for 10 hours.  The idea is to run longer than the batteries could POSSIBLY run invertors to run the heaters.

Of course, we would use an oscilloscope (or two) to monitor the output voltage waveform (e.g., does it look like it just comes from an inverter?)

I wonder if it is possible to have it "black box" as concerns all components covered and hidden from view EXCEPT for the batteries.  Then we can monitor each battery:

1.  Voltage before starting AND during the entire run.

2.  Current through the wire hooked to the battery.

3.  Temperature of the batteries, and of the hook-up wires.

If they won't allow this for some reason,  we could have wires hooked to the batteries that come out of the box so we can monitor the voltage continuously, and hopefully the current (to and from the battery pack).
We should also be allowed in that case a temperature probe ON each battery and the TK probe's wire coming out to our temperature monitors.

We can remind Mr Potter that our endorsement will go a long ways in establishing his credibility - and sales!

Any other ideas for DEFINITIVELY testing a "black box"?
   
img  Chet K
Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #132 on: 2014-11-03, 15:41:18 »
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Steve
Yes it is a very good sign ,and an opportunity for all of us .[the Planet]

The only thing I will ask here , since this is a public thread,  that the comments be kept
respectful and specific to the Task .[TEST PROTOCOL}

This test will be privately funded and will not be attached to any organization or special interest groups .

No agenda other than a fair and proper test.

respectfully

Chet
   
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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #133 on: 2014-11-03, 16:33:36 »
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It's turtles all the way down
The two heaters approach is a good idea provided they are priorly measured and characterized and can be run on the exact voltage they were measured at. Then you will only need a timer.

Short of that you will need a "kill a watt" meter for each heater since most "kill a watt meters" are only good for up to 15 amps (P3 International).

A 1500 Watt heater at 120 volts line will draw about 12.5 Amps.

Using two "kill A Watt" meters you don't need a separate timer unless there is a momentary power fail, upon which the P3's will not remember the elapsed kWhr. Other types have built in batteries for memory and can stay alive during a brownout.

Monitoring the battery voltage to observe rundown and estimate reserve capacity would be a good idea as suggested, but I doubt that it would be allowed.

It would be a good idea to get an rough estimate of the battery capacity before the test based on approximate size and kWhr rating.

Does anyone recognize the size / type / kWhr rating of those batteries?


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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #134 on: 2014-11-03, 17:20:01 »
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Try... https://lazycackle.com/Convert_from_Ah_to_KWh___Online_Calculator.html

I'm very familiar with the 4 & 8D. Two of the 8D's in series are used to start diesel generators up to and around 1200 hp.

Not something you will find on many workbenches.
   
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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #135 on: 2014-11-03, 18:20:57 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Yes , a pair of those 8D's will put out around 6.12 kW for one hour and run some of the small stuff seen in the video for much longer.

I use some of those big boys in my electric tractor.


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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #136 on: 2014-11-03, 18:31:16 »

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Quote from: ION on 2014-11-03, 18:20:57
Yes , a pair of those 8D's will put out around 6.12 kW for one hour and run some of the small stuff seen in the video for much longer.

I use some of those big boys in my electric tractor.

Dear ION.

I agree with your statement however I personally would say that on the wirings appearance only one of the two batteries is doing the hard work !

As an aside, It is great news that Mr Potter will allow some tests to be made, roll on December.  :)

Cheers Grum.


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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #137 on: 2014-11-03, 19:40:37 »
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Quote from: ION on 2014-11-03, 16:33:36
The two heaters approach is a good idea provided they are priorly measured and characterized and can be run on the exact voltage they were measured at. Then you will only need a timer.

Having done substantial testing for the USEPA, you will definitely need a baseline comparison running in real-time along with the test.  We use to create documents referred to as LOI (Letters of Instruction); in this document may I suggest we run two more identical heaters connected to grid power and use at least IR meters monitoring all four heaters.  Temperature checks need to be documented at least every minute.  A scanning protocol set in place where heater A, B, C, D is checked up to 15 seconds, then move to the next one and repeat the cycle until the test is completed.  It will be a tedious process, but if done properly will give indisputable evidence as to the performance of the device with a resistive load bank.
   
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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #138 on: 2014-11-04, 01:45:00 »
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It's turtles all the way down
For the DC side:

A clamp on DC amp meter would be useful to measure battery current, unless there is already a known value shunt in the battery line that can be measured.

Also, a quality DC meter to keep an eye on battery voltage.

A infra red laser type thermometer would be handy to read the temperature of the inverter and batteries and other objects in order to later calculate dissipation although contact measurement would be better.


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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #139 on: 2014-11-04, 01:51:23 »
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Quote from: ION on 2014-11-03, 16:33:36
The two heaters approach is a good idea provided they are priorly measured and characterized and can be run on the exact voltage they were measured at. Then you will only need a timer.

Short of that you will need a "kill a watt" meter for each heater since most "kill a watt meters" are only good for up to 15 amps (P3 International).

A 1500 Watt heater at 120 volts line will draw about 12.5 Amps.

Using two "kill A Watt" meters you don't need a separate timer unless there is a momentary power fail, upon which the P3's will not remember the elapsed kWhr. Other types have built in batteries for memory and can stay alive during a brownout.

I have a couple of kill-a-watt meters, but also two Intertek meters.  These do NOT reset with power failure; one has to push a recessed reset button.  Also, they read energy down to 0.001 kW-hours, which is pretty good.

Quote

Monitoring the battery voltage to observe rundown and estimate reserve capacity would be a good idea as suggested, but I doubt that it would be allowed.

It would be a good idea to get an rough estimate of the battery capacity before the test based on approximate size and kWhr rating.

Does anyone recognize the size / type / kWhr rating of those batteries?

I hope it would be allowed! to monitor the voltage across the terminals of EACH battery separately, during a muli-hour test.  I would push for that, even if GDS hooked up wires to the terminals, marked them, then brought them out through the casing/door of the "black box" so we could monitor the voltages.  I think we need that for sure, to do a definitive test - which should also be in the interest of GDS.

As mentioned before, temperature measurements would be very important.  I have both thermocouple and IR (non-contact) equipment.

--Steve

PS -- Is this the max we can expect for the pair of batteries?

Quote
a pair of those 8D's will put out around 6.12 kW for one hour and run some of the small stuff seen in the video for much longer.

So for TWO batteries, max is about 6.12 kW-hours? is that right?
   
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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #140 on: 2014-11-04, 02:00:48 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Yes if they are the 8D's rated at a max of 255 ampere hours, whether used in series or parallel it comes out to around 6.12 kWHr


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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #141 on: 2014-11-04, 16:38:26 »
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From a more critical viewpoint it would seem everyone is moving in the wrong direction.

Critical thinking:
Evaluate the information + Evaluate our Thoughts = a Refined Thought Process

What information?, the GDS system appears to be identical to the James Hardy system and following the time line we could assume the GDS is a copy of the Hardy system. A water pump driving a water turbine both connected to one another physically (water) and electrically(an electric current). Logically we should examine the Hardy system which may be the source of the GDS technology.

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." - Albert Einstein

Evaluating our thoughts, as Tommy pointed out when we see the system we see a motor driving a generator and our mind determines that it is no different than a motor driving a generator through a belt. However this is a false premise because water is not a belt, they are not the same so what is the "difference"?.

Critical Observations concerning the source, the James Hardy system
1) The water tank is turbulent and full of bubbles when in operation, the clear tube feeding the nozzle is white and filled with water and air bubbles. Thus we could assume air bubbles may play a role...How?
2)Cavitation, a water pump will cavitate cyclically under the influence of air unloading the motor driving it cyclically.
3)The turbine disk has the blades set a large distance apart...why?. If the blades are set a distance apart then the force from the water hitting the blades on the disk must be periodic ie cyclic.
4)Evaluating our thoughts and putting it all together, the pump cavitates cyclically due to the air bubbles unloading the pump physically which must then unload the generator driving it electrically. Thus we have two systems which are cyclic in their nature. A physical system of 1)a Pump, Water,Turbine and an electrical system 2)Pump motor, an electric current, Generator.

5)Creative Solutions:
Now if this system is no different than a motor driving a generator directly through a belt then logically we can assume it cannot work based on past experience and knowledge. So why has everyone completely ignored the simple observations made above in points 1 through 4?. Why has nobody evaluated there thoughts concerning the simple observations made above. The fact remains that a non-working system is pointless and yet everyone seems bound and determined to prove in their mind that it cannot work...Why?. Why would we not Observe critically, Evaluate the information we observe then Evaluate our thoughts concerning the information we have?.

Why wouldn't we promote creative thoughts to find a workable solution rather than negative thoughts to prove to ourselves it cannot work leaving us right back where we started?.

My creative solution is simple and obvious, Physically the pump cavitates due to the air bubbles in the tank and about the same time a slug of water strikes a blade on the turbine/generator. Thus Electrically the pump motor unloads due to cavitation increasing the voltage/lowering the current and about the same time the generator speed increases due to a slug of water striking a turbine blade which increases the voltage/increases current. It would seem we may have a cyclic condition whereby the pump motor unloads about the same time as the generator loads and in the next cycle the pump motor may load about the same time as the generator unloads. Electrically the phrase (about the same time) above relates to the phase differential at the motor and generator as well as the difference between them. I won't go into it here as it gets a little complicated however I imagine some here may understand what I'm getting at. Think of water impulses moving forward in the system which creates electrical impulses moving backwards in the system cyclically. This may explain why we need water in the system versus a simple motor driving a generator directly with a belt. Don't make this hard when it should be easy.

As I said it would seem to me most here are bound and determined to prove this wrong and fail in the process. This is not a solution in any sense of the word, we must Observe, Evaluate the information, Evaluate our Thoughts and Refine our Thought Process to find a creative solution.
To be honest I nailed down a pretty solid working premise within 15 minutes of first seeing the Hardy video, such is the power of Critical Thinking.

AC



« Last Edit: 2014-11-04, 17:03:43 by Allcanadian »


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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #142 on: 2014-11-04, 17:13:27 »
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Quote from: ION on 2014-11-04, 02:00:48
Yes if they are the 8D's rated at a max of 255 ampere hours, whether used in series or parallel it comes out to around 6.12 kWHr


OK - so we really need to know just what kind of batteries they are using BEFORE begin testing.
This should not be privileged info.

AC - your premise seems logical enough - but do you agree that empirical testing would be important?
   
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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #143 on: 2014-11-04, 19:26:08 »
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@Physicsprof
Quote
AC - your premise seems logical enough - but do you agree that empirical testing would be important?

I would think it would be a necessity, I would measure the output power (volt/amps) relative to the only other energy source seen which is the battery power(volt/amps). Another person was correct in that a large resistance  load should be used on the output to negate the effects of reactance (XC,XL). The battery amp/hr is a non-issue in my opinion if the in/out power of the batteries is already being measured. A good oscilloscope should be used to integrate the volt/amp readings into average or mean power from the batteries. I would use a hall effect current sensor for isolation purposes as well as measuring battery voltage at the terminal.

The measurement protocols are pretty straight forward in my opinion.

AC


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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #144 on: 2014-11-05, 00:55:57 »
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AC- "I would use a hall effect current sensor for isolation purposes as well as measuring battery voltage at the terminal."

Good ideas.  Can you tell me - how accurate is a hall effect current sensor - and does it need to be adjacent to the wire hooked to the battery?  IOW, how would one calibrate the sensor in this case?
Where available at a reasonable price?

Measuring the output power is relatively easy with simple electric-resistance heaters as I noted initially.

Note:
I would also keep track of water usage and any water dripping anywhere... Doesn't hurt to be thorough.
   
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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #145 on: 2014-11-05, 01:28:34 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Earlier I mentioned a DC clamp on amp meter. Some of these use a Hall Effect sensor and the better ones have decent accuracy, no need to calibrate. Of course for highest accuracy nothing will be better than a good temperature compensated CSR in the current loop , but the better quality DC clamp on meters will do for this test.

http://www.myflukestore.com/category/fluke_clamp_meters?gclid=CKbIqtSn4sECFW8V7AodtkoAAQ



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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #146 on: 2014-11-05, 01:56:37 »
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@PhysicsProf
Quote
Good ideas.  Can you tell me - how accurate is a hall effect current sensor - and does it need to be adjacent to the wire hooked to the battery?  IOW, how would one calibrate the sensor in this case?
Where available at a reasonable price?

This is only my opinion but current shunts are a disaster with ground loops and I never use them...ever. I also have many AC/DC clamp meters however I do question there accuracy because I pre-calibrate everything with a known current source over a wide range. I use the Allegro hall effect current sensors in series with the source with a micro-regulated power supply of my design to reduce noise. I have the 0-50A, 100A and 200A sensors on hand and they are pretty awesome considering the isolation voltage is around 3000v. As well most off the shelf devices can only handle conventional signals and non-uniform signals mess them up so I use my scope to calculate power on minor stuff and program my own micro-controllers for the serious work. Calibration is the key here, calibrate with a known current source over the expected range so we know were we stand before we take any measurements.

Now imagine you are using a shunt with on a low voltage circuit and it jumps into a HF/HV oscillation generating 1000's of volts in micro-seconds...good-by Mr.oscilloscope.

hope for the best but plan for the worst, lol.

AC


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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #147 on: 2014-11-05, 13:43:28 »

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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2014-11-05, 01:56:37

hope for the best but plan for the worst, lol.

AC

Dear All.

Whilst I understand the need for " rigour " dear Mr Potter may only allow the team access to the socket outlets!!

Surely, a simple endurance test would suffice ? Plug in a three bar electric fire via an electronic KWh meter and run the ***t out of it for 8 hrs or so!!  :) That alone would suggest a 24 KWh capability, way beyond ION's 6.5 KWh.

Aking.21 told me about the time TK demonstrated the Aquarium device, after about 20 mins everybody got bored senseless!! " Worse than watching paint dry " I am sure that carrying out a list of tests would relieve the boredom, but using AC's quote above, maybe a good book should be part of the test equipment!!   :)

Cheers Grum.



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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #148 on: 2014-11-05, 14:29:39 »
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Quote from: Grumage on 2014-11-05, 13:43:28
Dear All.

Whilst I understand the need for " rigour " dear Mr Potter may only allow the team access to the socket outlets!!

Surely, a simple endurance test would suffice ? Plug in a three bar electric fire via an electronic KWh meter and run the ***t out of it for 8 hrs or so!!  :) That alone would suggest a 24 KWh capability, way beyond ION's 6.5 KWh.
...


Aren't you just ruling out the use of Lithium batteries?
Are we just testing for non-conventional batteries? 
We want to test for a novel, non-galvanic energy source, IMO.
   
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Re: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water « Reply #149 on: 2014-11-05, 14:45:08 »
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  Sterling wrote to me, proposing a long run on the GDS to preclude the use of lithium batteries.

I replied:

Quote
Sterling,

Isn't your proposed test just ruling out the use of Lithium batteries?
Would not your proposed test leave open the possibility of new, non-lithium batteries? 

We want to test for a novel, non-galvanic energy source, IMO; not just rule out the use of lithium batteries.

I propose - At the 110-V plugs, we can measure power-out in a straightforward way, using a resistive-heater load (say two resistive heaters, total load at 3kW) and kill-a-Watt meters or equivalent -- at least two watt and watt-hour meters.  I also want to look at the output voltage waveform -- to see how it ripples.  It would be nice to look at the output power (V(t) * I(t) waveform) and see how that ripples.

The power coming from (or to) the battery pack is more difficult to measure,      IMO, we need access at least to at least one wire leading to each battery terminal, so we can measure the current flow (e.g., using a clamp-on DC-current Hall probe), and an oscilloscope to see how it ripples.  One would also like to monitor the voltage across each battery as a function of time (V(t)).

That is, if we and GDS seek for definitive tests and certification!

---Steven Jones
   
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