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Author Topic: GDS 3 KW generator runs on water  (Read 96834 times)

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Hi Mike,

 I have work to do, but when I get back I will have to show you how wrong you are dealing with water pressure thrust and energy produce. This is basic on water rocket math, so yes Nasa stuff.

Tom  ;)

Tom, here is a graph of hp needed in relation to flow and pressure, for a "guide only" 275 ft of height is 120psi for water at ST.

As in all calculations of this type you should take into consideration the static head of the pump. Now as I have stated in previous posts, there just maybe another pump in this system, why? to change the static head as there is no static head, as is here, so a static head was changed by the use of the "possible" other pump. I hope everyone is with me on what I'm saying, "pumps work depending on static head of water".

regards

Mike 8)


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E2matrix -- good observations -- agreed.

We should have test results before too long; without those, there's really not much basis yet.
If it is a self-runner as advertised, one would just need to run for say 10 hours continuously videotaping, with no input power - except water -- then that would be quite compelling.  Still needs observers checking for no "cheating".

I'm actually willing to travel up there - if they'll allow a simple (non-invasive) test as described.
   
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What is also worth noting in this sort of setup,is that it is an open system-in that no matter what load is placed on the generator,no reflection of this load is placed on the pump. The pump will consume X amount of power,and that amount will not change regardless of load on the generator.This makes it very easy to get P/in and P/out measurements. A simple watt meter on the P/in side takes care of that. The P/out from the gen should be rectified and smoothed with large cap's,and then placed on a resistive load to get out P/out measurement.

Guys, a got thinking about this last night...


Torque on the output shaft is a factor of the wheel's radius.  Bigger "R", more leverage.

RPM on the output shaft is a factor of water velocity hitting the blades/buckets.  This is assuming the leverage is good enough to keep the resistance to a minimum.  I would think under no load, this velocity would be equal.

Force at water impact against the blades/buckets is a bit of an unknown to me.  PSI?  Water volume?  There are factors there I'd have to see experimentally to fully understand the mechanics.  It does seem to me you would want the water jet facing straight down to pickup any effects of gravity too.  Kinetics would suggest the force impinged on each blade/bucket should be the difference in velocity between the water jet and the blade/bucket, times the mass of the water actually reduced in speed.

Maybe someone with a clear head and strong math skills can work-up a chart that shows these relationships with various test points, say ten example plots.  That should give us an idea whether the horsepower produced can actually exceed the energy needed for a certain diameter and velocity water jet.  I can try to do this, but I'm not confident my data will any way match reality.
   

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Dear Matt.

The Pelton wheel has been with us for quite some time !!

This might be of interest ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelton_wheel

I also fondly remember working at the Cwm Dyli Hydro station where there were two Peebles sets working beautifully at nearly 80 years old !!   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cwm_Dyli

Cheers Grum.


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Dear Matt.

The Pelton wheel has been with us for quite some time !!

This might be of interest ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelton_wheel

I also fondly remember working at the Cwm Dyli Hydro station where there were two Peebles sets working beautifully at nearly 80 years old !!   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cwm_Dyli

Cheers Grum.

Hi Grum

Your making me home sick, North Wales is so full of wonder ;)

regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Guys, a got thinking about this last night...


Torque on the output shaft is a factor of the wheel's radius.  Bigger "R", more leverage.

RPM on the output shaft is a factor of water velocity hitting the blades/buckets.  This is assuming the leverage is good enough to keep the resistance to a minimum.  I would think under no load, this velocity would be equal.

Force at water impact against the blades/buckets is a bit of an unknown to me.  PSI?  Water volume?  There are factors there I'd have to see experimentally to fully understand the mechanics.  It does seem to me you would want the water jet facing straight down to pickup any effects of gravity too.  Kinetics would suggest the force impinged on each blade/bucket should be the difference in velocity between the water jet and the blade/bucket, times the mass of the water actually reduced in speed.

Maybe someone with a clear head and strong math skills can work-up a chart that shows these relationships with various test points, say ten example plots.  That should give us an idea whether the horsepower produced can actually exceed the energy needed for a certain diameter and velocity water jet.  I can try to do this, but I'm not confident my data will any way match reality.
Wonder if anyone has thought about the fact that the pelton wheel would actually be under water when there is 4 gallons of water in the tank ;D-->or would the water level still be bellow the pelton wheel?


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Wonder if anyone has thought about the fact that the pelton wheel would actually be under water when there is 4 gallons of water in the tank ;D-->or would the water level still be bellow the pelton wheel?

I was just thinking the same. If you use the water level indicator and just fill the tank based on that, then
the water level will be well above the Pelton wheel. Does a Pelton wheel work when under water?

GL.
   

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Generator details etc

http://www.motenergy.com/hydro-power-products.html

regards

Mike 8)

PS I don't think it is running in water, it is only 20cm diameter and it has very little cogging torque, does not need huge pressure, all seems too good to be true.



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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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Hi All,

Ok this is the basics of how water pressure is calculated.

Pressure output:
Thrust output in pounds:
FPS flow of water:
Input of water pump:
Output of generator

Enjoy!

Tom
   

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480 watts from a fisher and pykal setup,and using a truck load of water.
A long way from 3000 watts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBPbuVc1UQ8


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Decided not to waste any more of my time on this(GDS). After watching many video's of actual pelton hydro electric setup's,it is very clear that the amount and pressure of water needed to get just 1kw far exceeds that of what the little pump in the GDS would put out.Then also to have an electric motor driving a PMA-well you have QMoGen written all over it.

Common sense says this GDS device is rubbish/scam material.

Now ,back to something useful. O0


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Hi TinMan,

 I agree, this could just be a water cool inverter system for all we know.

Water is very powerful when it's in a lake or steam, but pumping water cost energy, no free lunch here.

James Hardy system could not over come the loss of energy it takes to pump enough water to produce more energy output.

Tom

   
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Sterling will be Calling Mr.Potter on a regular Basis and posting updates here
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

thx

Chet
   

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Sterling will be Calling Mr.Potter on a regular Basis and posting updates here
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

thx

Chet
Quote: I asked him where he got the idea. He said it came to him in a dream about 4.5 years ago:  O0


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Hi all,

I think I found out who this guy is, after looking at his picture and how his hair was dye I believe this is the guy:

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/local-news/clean-energy-official-succumbs-to-power-of-green

They look that same to me, what do you think?

I found a Greg potter, but it's not same guy in the same area.

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/greg-potter/14/a70/84

I try to search this guy, nothing comes up, wonder why?

Tom

   
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TinMan
I wouldn't knock dreams too much
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitri_Mendeleev

@Tommey

I don't know about that one??

thx
Chet
   
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Hi Chet,

I was trying to look up this Greg Potter on the internet, I can't find anything from the past.

I believe this could be a fake name, I wonder why nothing came up on this guy?

Tom
   
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Tom
I think the next few weeks will be quite telling on this one,no stone left unturned...

thx
Chet
   

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Hi Chet,

I was trying to look up this Greg Potter on the internet, I can't find anything from the past.

I believe this could be a fake name, I wonder why nothing came up on this guy?

Tom
I found him Tom-he's an Aussie lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRnTUZt4RqM


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1714 PSI :D :D :D :D NASA we have lift off ;D

120psi (8.25bar)@5ltr/min+- for that PMA would create 4kw @ 240v giving a rough area to the total impact area of the wheel.

As Grum has said, you are going in reverse, and NO it is not the same, you have to take in impact area as part of the equation, and in our case also diameter of the wheel to get RPM.

It is not so straight forward as you put it ???

regards

Mike 8)


Tom, I have quoted my own post so as you can see that I was only pulling a bit of fun on the 1714psi, not your calc's, but have you ever seen water at this pressure? and on top of that leaving a jet? that is what I was on about, enough thrust to lift off a rocket ;D

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Tom, I have quoted my own post so as you can see that I was only pulling a bit of fun on the 1714psi, not your calc's, but have you ever seen water at this pressure? and on top of that leaving a jet? that is what I was on about, enough thrust to lift off a rocket ;D

regards

Mike 8)
My high preasure cleaner runs at 2600psi,and i dont get lift off lol. However,the volume is very low.


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Sterling will be Calling Mr.Potter on a regular Basis and posting updates here
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

thx

Chet

Quoting from there:
Quote
GDS Technologies (water generator) is not ready to go yet

Greg told me he didn't plan on releasing these until December 15, when he had inventory built up; and that the website wording was in preparation for that; and that someone found the site and blasted it on several forums, which inundated him with inquiries and orders, which he will be refunding.


by Sterling D. Allan
Pure Energy Systems News

I just got off the phone with Gregory Potter, the inventor of the technology so many of you have seen by now, as we announced it as follows in our news, night before last:

 

Featured: Water > as Fuel / QMoGen? >
GDS Technologies' Portable Water Generators - Canadian company has a water-powered, portable genset available for sale on their website, in output sizes of 5 kW, 10 kW and 15 kW, at a price of around $1000/kW. Just 4 gallons of tap water will run the 5 kW system relatively quietly for three days. It emits no pollution, no fumes. Suitable for non-grid-tie applications. (PESWiki; October 26, 2014)

Greg Potter with his GDS3000, which they will not be selling. The 5kW system will be the smallest output they will sell.

It's been one of the most popular things we've posted in quite a while -- even more popular than the stories we did on the recent E-Cat (cold fusion) third party test results being published. Our index of news coverage on the E-Cat development is just past 10,000 visits, posted October 9. Meanwhile, in just the first 34 hours, our PESWiki page on GDS Technologies linked above has over 8,200 visits.

Greg said he has received around 1500 emails since yesterday morning, and was on the phone 12 hours yesterday fielding calls. It took me four tries this morning before I finally got through -- first thing in the morning. Here's a link to the recording of our call.

He said he received 10 orders by PayPal and needed to contact them to have them cancel those. I instructed him how to issue refunds in PayPal (it's really easy).

He's not ready to take orders yet, and hadn't planned on receiving orders until he announced his product in a press release and/or advertising. He wants to introduce the product on around December 15, after they've had a chance to build up some inventory -- and get international patent coverage. He has a meeting this Thursday with the attorneys for that purpose. He said he has a Canadian patent filed.

An investor associate of mine said he called Greg yesterday and was told that at first they were expecting the first delivery November 15, but now they are backlogged to December 15.

Obviously, Greg is not that savvy about how the web works, nor about product roll-out. But we should cut him some slack for an innocent mistake. I don't see it as being malicious or fraudulent; just naively reckless.

Presently he's essentially a one-man-band. He needs a good team wrapped around him who knows how to run a businesses and product roll-out, including the engineering, testing, branding, website, teasers, setting up manufacturing, distributing, etc.

Greg said his tech guy hasn't been available over the weekend to make the needed changes on their site. They're going to take down the purchase buttons and modify some wording to make it clear that these are not available yet. He needs to change the wording on the title of his video, too. I hope he doesn't make it private or unlisted -- just add notice in the title or description to clarify.

In getting this news, Patrick Flanagan (Tesla in former life?), who is the one who informed me about it two days ago, saying he had purchased one, wrote the following: "I don't want my money back. I would like to be first in line. I could probably help him engineering wise too."

When I pointed out to Greg that his website makes it look like they are ready to sell and deliver these units, he said that he had not intended for them to be public yet. I'm not sure how he expected that after having a YouTube video up with a reference to the site. Posted on September 7, that YouTube Video has just over 2,000 visits when I first viewed it Saturday night. By last night, it had over 17,000 visits. Now, as of 8:30 am MDT [GMT-6], it has over 27,000 views.

He said that someone posted a link to his site and video on several forums, which led to this inundation. Our coverage facilitated that inundation as well.

I assured him that the interest would begin to fizzle almost as rapidly, once we get this story up about them not actually being ready to go. He said he appreciated that.

He said something about his "team" and a "factory", but we were rushed, and I wasn't able to probe deeper on that one: how many on the team? what size factory? Their Alibaba listing for their GDS 3000 system says they are capable for producing 400/month. I'm not sure why they would have that page up, either, if they weren't yet ready to sell. That page makes no mention, either, of this not being available yet.

I asked him where he got the idea. He said it came to him in a dream about 4.5 years ago: "Build a [water] turbo generator, it will work". He didn't take it really seriously at first, and basically just researched the ideas for about a year before launching into trying to build one.

He said he's built about ten now. He told Chet Kremens that the ratings of the three generators sizes they plan to sell are actually significantly underplayed, and could handle a peak load that is 300% of the name plate output rating. So if you have  5 kW system, it would be more than adequate to handle a continuous load of 5 kW, with an infrequent spike of 15 kW.
CORRECTION: He told Chet that in a 5 kW system, the actual output was 7 kW, and that 2 kW was needed to run the system, leaving 5 kW for external use.

They're still not optimized in their engineering. It gets warm, which isn't good for the wear of the moving parts. If you try and run it 24/7 you'll have problems. He doesn't recommend running them more than 12 hours. He suggests 8 hours, followed by at least a three hour cool-down period. He said he has run a 5 kW system 8 hours every day for two years now. He expects that if run this way the system will last at least 6 years. Chet thinks that the heating problem should be easy to resolve with proper engineering, using the proper readily available parts.

He said they are not going to be selling the 3 kW system. The smaller parts needed are not reliable.

While he's not ready to sell yet, he said he is open to engineering help. I recommended he hook up as soon as possible with Mike Waters, President of NEST, who actually invented something quite similar to this and is presently working on a variation of it as we speak. Mike told me he's more than willing to drive up this week.

Someone asked whether groups would have permission to replicate the technology. My reply (this isn't coming from Greg) is that the principle is yes, you can replicate. He's filing for international patent coverage so that people will be required to work through him to be legit and not prone to law suit over patent infringement. I would think they would appreciate people replicating so they know what they are doing, then license for manufacturing.

Greg invited me to contact him weekly to get updates on their progress.
   

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My high preasure cleaner runs at 2600psi,and i dont get lift off lol. However,the volume is very low.

Brad the pump may run at that pressure but what do you get leaving the nozzel?  2600psi would cut your arm off at 1gal/min. you only have to look at water cutters, but then you get into the diameter of jet etc etc

We were talking about a jet of water hitting a 20cm dia turbine, did you see Toms video, the static pressure and the running pressure? Lol they are two different things, like measuring voltage with and without load.

I think we sit back and see how this pans out, I really do not think it works, but would be nice if it did O0 but I do like that PMA if the spec is right ;)

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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Hi Alll,

I know my theories on this guy sound crazy, but there is nothing I can find on this guy.

I like to add again that this Greg Potter has no past viideo or picture on engine search, like he just was born a few months ago.

I also checked Canada patent files this year and nothing came up, this would be public information.

Now to get back to water power:

1hp =33,000lb rise 1ft off the ground in 1 minute
1hp= 550ft/lb sec.
1hp = torque * rpm / 5252
When working with converting mechanical work to electrical output expect  more work needed due to friction loss and rpm constant speed needed.

It takes a average of 4,000 gallons of water at 1 foot height to produce 1hp:
33,000lb/8.33lb=3961 gal/per/min
A 10ft drop of water will only take about 400gal@4.33psi gal/per/min to produce 1hp
A 100ft drop of water will take about 40gal@43.3psi to produce 1hp

hp=PSI * GPM / 1714


Tom


   

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Brad the pump may run at that pressure but what do you get leaving the nozzel?  2600psi would cut your arm off at 1gal/min. you only have to look at water cutters, but then you get into the diameter of jet etc etc

We were talking about a jet of water hitting a 20cm dia turbine, did you see Toms video, the static pressure and the running pressure? Lol they are two different things, like measuring voltage with and without load.

I think we sit back and see how this pans out, I really do not think it works, but would be nice if it did O0 but I do like that PMA if the spec is right ;)

regards

Mike 8)
The preasure cleaner puts out 5.3 LPM,so that is more than 1 gallon a minute,and no,it wont cut your arm off,although it dose sting when you hit your foot with it lol.
In regards to the output of the PMA,take a look at the output from one of the smartdrive motors i have ,being used as an alternator-and these have only ferrite magnets in them.
May have to skip to about 2 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R_ziYunY3g


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