PopularFX
Home Help Search Login Register
Welcome,Guest. Please login or register.
2024-11-28, 07:46:18
News: Forum TIP:
The SHOUT BOX deletes messages after 3 hours. It is NOT meant to have lengthy conversations in. Use the Chat feature instead.

Pages: [1] 2
Author Topic: HPG and the magnet.  (Read 8016 times)

Group: Elite Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4728


Buy me some coffee
Is there a thread some where on OUR about the homopolar generator?,
On OU poynt started a thread-magnet myths and misconceptions-http://www.overunity.com/14974/magnet-myths-and-misconceptions/

I believe that these two put together would explain all we need to know about the other-they would go together like matches and dynomite,and result in an explosion of information.


---------------------------
Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3217
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
I don't think there is Brad, but there is no mystery really about how or why the Faraday disc works.

Regarding the OU thread, some people still don't seem to understand; when I read things like "bringing a magnet near an iron bar, induces an opposite pole in the bar", I just shake my head.  :(


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

Group: Elite Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4728


Buy me some coffee
I don't think there is Brad, but there is no mystery really about how or why the Faraday disc works.

Regarding the OU thread, some people still don't seem to understand; when I read things like "bringing a magnet near an iron bar, induces an opposite pole in the bar", I just shake my head.  :(
My understanding is this. Magnets attract materials that have a large number of unpaired electrons that have the same directional spin.

In regards to the HPG or faraday disk,could you please post your understanding of the working principle behind it please poynt.

Cheers
Brad


---------------------------
Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3217
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Perhaps we could start with what your understanding of it is?


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

Group: Elite Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4728


Buy me some coffee
Perhaps we could start with what your understanding of it is?
I have no understanding as of yet,as i have never really looked into the HPG and it's working's. But in saying that,most of what others say on OU.com makes no sense to as how it work's ,as i see no reason for there to be any induction as they claim. For a voltage or current to be formed,there must be a change in magnetic field strength in relation to the conductor(disk). As the magnets can be/are attached to the disk,then there is no change in magnetic field strength in relation to the conductor-there for there is no induction. The explanation given by one was-a virtual wire is formed between the brushes,and this is the wire that cuts through the magnetic field. I don't see this being correct,as the brushes are fixed,and so,the virtual wire is also fixed in relation to the static magnetic field-so once again,no induction can occur.

I first believe at this moment,is that the magnetic field is creating some sort of situation that allows the electrons to move in a coarse spiral path through the disk-just a way out there wacky thought ATM.I picture these paths to represent the liquid flow path of that of a centrifugal water pump impeller. This would explain as to why the current flow reverses when the direction of rotation is reversed,and also by reversing the magnetic polarity would be like flipping the impeller over in relation to rotational direction-once again,changing the direction of flow.


This is why we need to understand as to what the magnetic field is-not just how and why it's created. What is that invisible force made of?.


---------------------------
Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3217
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
For a voltage or current to be formed,there must be a change in magnetic field strength in relation to the conductor(disk).
OK, let's start with this. Are you 100% sure?

If you conduct a little research, you will find that a charged particle, i.e. an electron moving perpendicular through a stationary uniform magnetic field will experience a force, the Lorentz force.


Quote
As the magnets can be/are attached to the disk,then there is no change in magnetic field strength in relation to the conductor-there for there is no induction.of?.
The magnetic field does not vary or change, regardless if it is attached to the disc or not. However the electrons see that uniform field (in either case) and when the disc is spun the Lorentz force causes them to move and this creates an emf across the radius of the disc.


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

Group: Elite Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4728


Buy me some coffee
OK, let's start with this. Are you 100% sure?

If you conduct a little research, you will find that a charged particle, i.e. an electron moving perpendicular through a stationary uniform magnetic field will experience a force, the Lorentz force.

The magnetic field does not vary or change, regardless if it is attached to the disc or not. However the electrons see that uniform field (in either case) and when the disc is spun the Lorentz force causes them to move and this creates an emf across the radius of the disc.
I don't see how that can work,as the magnetic field is uniform throughout the whole disk. This is like saying a voltage and current can be produced by running a magnet along the length of a wire.And if what you say is correct,then why would the polarity change by spinning the disk in the opposite direction,as the electrons are still moving within the same uniform magnetic field.

If you spin an aluminum disk and bring a magnet close to that spinning disk,it will experience the Lorentz force,but if the magnet is attached to the disk(spins with the disk),the disk will not experience the Lorentz force.Also most say there is no CEMF(backEMF) with the HPG,and some say that there is.


---------------------------
Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

Group: Elite Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4728


Buy me some coffee
I have to ask poynt-do you know what you said to be true through experiments with the HPG,or are you going on what others say to be the workings of the HPG?.

Also,do you know what a magnetic field is?. I mean,we know how to create one,and why it comes to be-but do you know what it is,what physical form is creating the force?. The only thing i know that can exert a force that has no mass is the photon. Dose the magnetic field consist of photons?.


---------------------------
Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3217
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
I don't see how that can work,as the magnetic field is uniform throughout the whole disk.
There IS a uniform field there and this is precisely why it DOES work. I gather from your responses that you did not conduct any research like I suggested?

Quote
This is like saying a voltage and current can be produced by running a magnet along the length of a wire.
Who said that there isn't a voltage produced this way? Obviously it is not produced across the length of the wire, so then where CAN it be measured?

Quote
And if what you say is correct,then why would the polarity change by spinning the disk in the opposite direction,as the electrons are still moving within the same uniform magnetic field.
Conduct a little research. Basically the force direction experienced by the charges is dependent on the direction the charges move. You can even use the right hand rule to determine the direction of force; point your fingers in the direction the charges travel. Curl your fingers toward the direction of the B field (N-S). Now your thumb points in the direction of the force. Here are a few links to get you started:
education portal
Hyperphysics
uwinnipeg
right hand rules
st mary's

If the theory of relative motion between a charged particle and a magnetic field was not predictable and controllable, CRT's for eg. would not have been invented.

Quote
If you spin an aluminum disk and bring a magnet close to that spinning disk,it will experience the Lorentz force,but if the magnet is attached to the disk(spins with the disk),the disk will not experience the Lorentz force.Also most say there is no CEMF(backEMF) with the HPG,and some say that there is.
I'm almost afraid to open this can of worms, but study eddy current brakes. Lenz's law takes effect when you have a stationary mag field that is not across the whole disc. This creates localized current loops in the disc that generate their own magnetic fields opposing the field of the fixed magnet, and hence the resulting drag. In this case there IS a build up or changing magnetic field experienced by the electrons in the disc, and localized current loops are induced in it as a result. In the case of the Faraday disc, the field is uniform across the entire disc and there is little to no fluctuation in the mag field seen by the electrons.

There are two modes of electromagnetic induction:

1) Motional. This pertains to the magnetic force on the charges in a moving wire (such as Faraday disc). Note that the magnetic field in this case does NOT have to be changing in strength for there to be an induced emf. There is relative movement, and that is all that is required.

2) Varying field. This pertains to cases where the magnetic field is changing in intensity which creates a changing electric field. This changing electric field induces an emf in a conductor that is coupled to it. Transformers are a good example.

Quiz: When you swipe a magnet across a wire, what mode of induction are you creating, 1) or 2)?


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

Group: Elite Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4728


Buy me some coffee
field is uniform across the entire disc and there is little to no fluctuation in the mag field seen by the electrons.


Quiz: When you swipe a magnet across a wire, what mode of induction are you creating, 1) or 2)?
That is mode two-(im not that far behind lol),as the conductor see's a changing(change in strength)magnetic field-normal induction.
In regards to the HPG,as the magnetic field is uniform,how and where is the CEMF produced-i have heard from a few that there isn't any if the machine is constructed right. This seems hard to believe,as if there is an EMF produced,then a CEMF should also be produced when a load is applied. I think that when a load is applied,then the HPG should also become a homopolar motor,but that motor wants to spin in the opposite direction-this would seem to be the CEMF to me?


---------------------------
Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

Group: Tinkerer
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3948
tExB=qr
Another look at the HPG:
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3217
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
That is mode two-(im not that far behind lol),as the conductor see's a changing(change in strength)magnetic field-normal induction.

Well, actually it is modes 1) and 2). ;)


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
Group: Guest
Well, actually it is modes 1) and 2). ;)

I was going to say both, however you cannot determine where within the wire the induction is occurring, using only standard instrumentation.
   

Group: Elite Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4728


Buy me some coffee
I was also going on the subject at hand-Quote: Motional. This pertains to the magnetic force on the charges in a moving wire (such as Faraday disc). Note that the magnetic field in this case does NOT have to be changing in strength.

If we swipe a magnet across a wire,then the magnetic field in relation to the wire is changing in strength. If we move the wire with the magnet,then we get nothing.


---------------------------
Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

Group: Tinkerer
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3948
tExB=qr
If you rotate the magnet with the disc, it still induces a current.
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3217
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
I was also going on the subject at hand-Quote: Motional. This pertains to the magnetic force on the charges in a moving wire (such as Faraday disc). Note that the magnetic field in this case does NOT have to be changing in strength.

If we swipe a magnet across a wire,then the magnetic field in relation to the wire is changing in strength. If we move the wire with the magnet,then we get nothing.

The quiz question was an open-ended one, not necessarily related to HPG's.

The answer is both modes. When you swipe a magnet across a wire there is a change in the magnetic field, AND there is relative motion between the wire and magnet.

@Matt, I'm not sure I follow you?


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

Group: Elite Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4728


Buy me some coffee
So rather than a solid disk, what would be the result using a pancake coil of heavy gauge wire?


---------------------------
Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3217
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Assuming it was insulated wire, probably not much.


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
Group: Guest
@Matt, I'm not sure I follow you?

Lets say you have a three foot piece of straight insulated wire, with ends A and B.  You connect an oscilloscope ground reference to A and the test probe to B.  If you swipe the magnet near the A end or the B end, you cannot tell the difference on the scope, but I'm quite certain the portion of the wire receiving the induction has changed.

If you add a center tap to the wire and try variations of probe arrangements, you can at least determine which end the induction is occurring.  Only if you use uninsulated wire and try all possible probe positions can you then isolate the exact segment of wire where the induction is occurring, or is the strongest.

Even though some may say all stones have been turned over in regards to conductors and magnetic fields, I'm still not so certain we know everything there is to know.  There is still a lot of geometries left to investigate.
   

Group: Tinkerer
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3948
tExB=qr
There is not and cannot be OU in the homopolar generator.  The physical act of drawing current current from it, creates the back-torque to limit it.

By the way, there is also a dielectric version, also not OU.

However, the toroidal device that "spherics" detailed is a homopolar generator with no moving parts.
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3217
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Lets say you have a three foot piece of straight insulated wire, with ends A and B.  You connect an oscilloscope ground reference to A and the test probe to B.  If you swipe the magnet near the A end or the B end, you cannot tell the difference on the scope, but I'm quite certain the portion of the wire receiving the induction has changed.
Perhaps, but the over all measured effect would be the same, providing the measurement points are sufficient distance from the area where induction is taking place.

Quote
If you add a center tap to the wire and try variations of probe arrangements, you can at least determine which end the induction is occurring.  Only if you use uninsulated wire and try all possible probe positions can you then isolate the exact segment of wire where the induction is occurring, or is the strongest.
Something tells me that may not be so. If the distance to the center tap is >> the width of the magnetic field/induction area (between ct and A say), measuring across ct to A should give you the same measured voltage as across B to A.

Or am I missing your point?


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

Group: Elite Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4728


Buy me some coffee
So can anyone tell me what a magnetic field consist of?
What matter creates the force?


---------------------------
Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

Group: Elite Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4728


Buy me some coffee
There is not and cannot be OU in the homopolar generator.  The physical act of drawing current current from it, creates the back-torque to limit it.

By the way, there is also a dielectric version, also not OU.

However, the toroidal device that "spherics" detailed is a homopolar generator with no moving parts.
Do you have any schematics for spherics design Grumpy


---------------------------
Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3217
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
So can anyone tell me what a magnetic field consist of?
What matter creates the force?

What does a gravitational field consist of Brad?

Or an electric field?

Does the field have to consist of something in order to exist?

In all the above cases, there is a central source, and it is the effects we can measure when something is placed or moved near the source.


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

Group: Tinkerer
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3948
tExB=qr
So can anyone tell me what a magnetic field consist of?
What matter creates the force?

A magnetic field is a region of space having magnetic properties.  :P

I pondered all of these questions years ago and every time I had an answer, another question popped up.

We can attribute the properties of a field to "space", with or without a carrier, but it makes more sense with a carrier.

Many brilliant minds have postulated that space is made up of tiny spinning vortices that are responsible for the properties of space.  If so, and they are spinning, we should be able to couple to them.

Spherics' device is detailed here: http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=369.0

   
Pages: [1] 2
« previous next »


 

Home Help Search Login Register
Theme © PopularFX | Based on PFX Ideas! | Scripts from iScript4u 2024-11-28, 07:46:18