Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current

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BEP

Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « on: 2014-09-06, 18:02:11 »

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Has anyone empirically proven that the magnetic field between the charging capacitor plates is the same as the field around a current carrying wire?

I have experimented for this but my results were inconclusive. I may need to repeat it with a better layout.

My thoughts are that the all encompassing winding on a TPU was twin-lead and open at one end (for trimming to length), the other end had a high voltage applied, and the two leads were actually a helical capacitor.

It may be possible to use such a winding to produce the same magnetic field around a 'collector' that exists around a current carrying wire.

Should this be true... the multiplicative inverse should hold: i.e., drawing current through that same collector would charge the helical capacitor feeding back to the high-voltage source.

Since the capacitor magnetic field can only exist during a change in collector current or variation in high-voltage applied to the capacitive windings... there would be a need to institute a constant change to keep current flowing. I suspect this could be done by having two sets of winding segments fired in quadrature (squeezing of the hose). The firing of these same quadrature windings would be used as a cycle limiter (repeated stopping).

Suspected results:

   1. Collector output would be DC with a heavy AC component.
   2. No Faraday inductive coupling between windings (no Lenz drag).
   3. Eventual overheating of the collector
   4. Passing a magnet for a kick-start will probably be required on simple versions.
   5. I doubt simple versions would work upside-down unless the quadrature firing and interconnections were reversed.

More to work out after I see some empiric proof of the mag field between capacitor plates.

Crazy?

Yes

ion

Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #1 on: 2014-09-07, 14:42:59 »

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Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2014-09-06, 18:02:11

Has anyone empirically proven that the magnetic field between the charging capacitor plates is the same as the field around a current carrying wire?

I have experimented for this but my results were inconclusive. I may need to repeat it with a better layout.

My thoughts are that the all encompassing winding on a TPU was twin-lead and open at one end (for trimming to length), the other end had a high voltage applied, and the two leads were actually a helical capacitor.

It may be possible to use such a winding to produce the same magnetic field around a 'collector' that exists around a current carrying wire.

Should this be true... the multiplicative inverse should hold: i.e., drawing current through that same collector would charge the helical capacitor feeding back to the high-voltage source.

Since the capacitor magnetic field can only exist during a change in collector current or variation in high-voltage applied to the capacitive windings... there would be a need to institute a constant change to keep current flowing. I suspect this could be done by having two sets of winding segments fired in quadrature (squeezing of the hose). The firing of these same quadrature windings would be used as a cycle limiter (repeated stopping).

Suspected results:

   1. Collector output would be DC with a heavy AC component.
   2. No Faraday inductive coupling between windings (no Lenz drag).
   3. Eventual overheating of the collector
   4. Passing a magnet for a kick-start will probably be required on simple versions.
   5. I doubt simple versions would work upside-down unless the quadrature firing and interconnections were reversed.

More to work out after I see some empiric proof of the mag field between capacitor plates.

Crazy?

Yes

Not crazy at all.....excellent insights. Let's sketch up some ideas to try as there is a possibility this might actually work.

Looking forward to your sketches to see if we are on the same page. I'll also try to come up with a sketch.

Regards, ION

---------------------------

"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

BEP	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #2 on: 2014-09-07, 15:40:21 »
Group: Guest	What I intend to prove on the bench is that a single conductor wrapped tightly with a coil of zip-cord will charge the capacitance of that zip-cord when a current passes through that single conductor. The inverse, charging the capacitance of that zip-cord will cause a voltage to appear from one end of that single conductor to the other end of the same conductor. Should the above be true.... correct connection between the zip-cord and single conductor should equate to an additive cycle. Passing the magnet over the coiled cord would disturb the capacitor's magnet field enough to cause the required changing capacitor mag field without drawing current from the capacitive circuit. If I'm correct, there would have been very good reason to use a magnet to kick-start the system - no reed switches required. The above is where I am on these thoughts.

ion	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #3 on: 2014-09-07, 15:53:42 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2014-09-07, 15:40:21 What I intend to prove on the bench is that a single conductor wrapped tightly with a coil of zip-cord will charge the capacitance of that zip-cord when a current passes through that single conductor. The inverse, charging the capacitance of that zip-cord will cause a voltage to appear from one end of that single conductor to the other end of the same conductor. Should the above be true.... correct connection between the zip-cord and single conductor should equate to an additive cycle. Passing the magnet over the coiled cord would disturb the capacitor's magnet field enough to cause the required changing capacitor mag field without drawing current from the capacitive circuit. If I'm correct, there would have been very good reason to use a magnet to kick-start the system - no reed switches required. The above is where I am on these thoughts. Your hypothesis is interesting. The attachment is what I have been pondering as a test setup. I would think the inverse i.e. powering the collector and looking for voltage on the twin lead might require very high current in the collector to get the effect. Doing it by powering the twin lead and discharging it might only require microamps. Also the effect may not be reciprocal. The collector output could then power the electrostatic supply and quadrature trigger circuit after kickstart. ------------------------ Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current TPU avalanche.jpg (42.43 kB, 627x374 - viewed 1579 times.) --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

BEP	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #4 on: 2014-09-07, 15:56:04 »
Group: Guest	I should add: No unconventional theory should be required. And, there may be a need to improve results by using bailing wire, a) for the conductor (collector) as higher resistance wire should provide higher voltages in the results. b) for the zip-cord (helical capacitor) because the hysteresis of the wire may make results easier to obtain. I wouldn't recommend both using iron as that should skew results.

BEP	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #5 on: 2014-09-07, 15:59:53 »
Group: Guest	Ion, You have the concept except no discharging of the twin-lead should be required. That would cause undue energy usage. Yes, discharging may eventually be to power the HV charging circuit (fire feeding the furnace?). After proving the capacitor/collector concept then I would worry about how to squeeze the hose and where to obtain the potential. -- Then, we should move this discussion to a TPU thread..

ion	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #6 on: 2014-09-07, 16:06:09 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2014-09-07, 15:59:53 Ion, You have the concept except no discharging of the twin-lead should be required. That would cause undue energy usage. After proving the capacitor/collector concept then I would worry about how to squeeze the hose and where to obtain the potential. My impression was that the quadrature discharge would provide the "squeezing of the hose" propelling electrons in a given direction. The initial charge creates an alignment. I have re-arranged what I have drawn and use a single avalanche transistor, and feed the ground to the other twin lead wire. This would provide the bias charge between the twin lead conductors not available in the previous version except during discharge intervals. OK some bench testing is on order. Regards, ION ------------------------ Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current TPU avalanche v2.jpg (31.1 kB, 630x253 - viewed 1322 times.) --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

BEP	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #7 on: 2014-09-07, 19:18:09 »
Group: Guest	I believe that the sequential squeezing may be done with either a rotating (quadrature) E-field or magnetic. Both types may have been demonstrated in the TPU development. Feedback circuits were probably a simple single half-wave rectifier feeding a large electrolytic (as seen in more than one TPU type). There was probably one of these circuits fed from each collector. In any case, should I be correct in the use of the magnetic field from displacement current, the 'stopping' (creating a repeating gradient) was most likely done by periodic distortion of that B-field. This could have been done with motor-like windings. Since any such gradient will not cause potential below zero - we have a possible means of creating DC. But first, we need to see if that I_d B-field will create a potential on the collector and current in the collector create the B-field needed between the plates which should create an E-field between the plates. Conventional E/M theory says all of this will happen The thing is that using I_d as a possible feature seems to explain most of SM's descriptions. Second thought: The cap B-field may also explain some of the oddities - station-keeping/gyro activity, the action of the compass, the closed amp-meter registering current with no wire in it, the fact that a TPU is a constant voltage type of device (as load increases the drive to produce voltage also increase - this would be extremely dangerous in an overload situation). ------------------------ Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current diEB.jpg (114.43 kB, 833x472 - viewed 2213 times.)

BEP	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #8 on: 2014-09-08, 12:18:39 »
Group: Guest	Both directions of induction work. The results just aren't impressive. Ion, Do you think the filler seen in some TPUs could have been a capacitor grade dielectric material? If this could be made to work anywhere near the efficiencies shown in TPU videos..... I should have patented this as new transformer and transformer theory.

ion	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #9 on: 2014-09-08, 13:36:44 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2014-09-08, 12:18:39 Both directions of induction work. The results just aren't impressive. Ion, Do you think the filler seen in some TPUs could have been a capacitor grade dielectric material? If this could be made to work anywhere near the efficiencies shown in TPU videos..... I should have patented this as new transformer and transformer theory. If you can disclose the nature of your tests that prove the first sentence in your post, perhaps I can figure out how to ramp up the efficiency. I would like to first duplicate your tests around your ideas. The other test would be to see if there is reciprocal loading, if not then it can feed itself. Regards ION --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

BEP	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #10 on: 2014-09-08, 17:27:57 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: ION on 2014-09-08, 13:36:44 If you can disclose the nature of your tests that prove the first sentence in your post, perhaps I can figure out how to ramp up the efficiency. I would like to first duplicate your tests around your ideas. The other test would be to see if there is reciprocal loading, if not then it can feed itself. Regards ION I'm working on something a little better than I had. The data needs to be well outside the realm of noise and fumbling fingers. My results weren't good enough to try reciprocal loading without falling below the accuracy of my equipment. Current setup is just a 12Ga. solid copper loop 14" in diameter covered in dielectric (just LMR400 coax with the outer sheath & shield removed). This is wrapped tightly with short sections of 14 conductor - 18ga. ribbon cable. Each section is open-ended on one end with wire ends insulated with RTV. The driven end of these short wires are alternately jumpered together to provide the effect of a stacked capacitor with alternating + & - plates. The test is simply to pulse the capacitive string and look for output on the loop then run a DC current through the loop and look for charging on the capacitive string. I'll take a photo when I get home and post but I'm sure there isn't enough capacitance at each element. The planned improvements will be to replace each short ribbon wire section with multiple turns (increase the plate area) and a borrowed high-current power supply from work.

BEP	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #11 on: 2014-09-08, 17:53:01 »
Group: Guest	Stupid me! Looking at my description above I know why the results suck.... The stacked capacitance is also alternating on polarity of the displacement magnetic field - DUH! >>Edit... I need to figure how to prevent the second plate of the previous capacitance from becoming the first plate of an unintended capacitance between capacitive turns - before I go any further. Perhaps three helical capacitors interleaved and each fed with a different potential source? (If this is why three frequencies were used I'm going to have a stroke ) « Last Edit: 2014-09-08, 21:42:30 by WaveWatcher »

Grumpy

Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #12 on: 2014-09-09, 03:29:43 »

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You can get displacement current, without an open capacitive element, during the rise of a pulse into a conductor.

I have a paper on this somewhere...

ion	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #13 on: 2014-09-09, 15:01:49 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	From WW: Quote I need to figure how to prevent the second plate of the previous capacitance from becoming the first plate of an unintended capacitance between capacitive turns - before I go any further. As a first test, just spacing out the turns of the twin lead wire should drastically reduce the capacitance between turns vs. the capacitance between twin lead wires. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

BEP	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #14 on: 2014-09-09, 15:11:38 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: ION on 2014-09-09, 15:01:49 From WW: As a first test, just spacing out the turns of the twin lead wire should drastically reduce the capacitance between turns vs. the capacitance between twin lead wires. Yes, my first thought. Apparently there is an ideal spacing. A little makes a slight improvement. Any more and the improvements are lost. Any ideas on how to minimize the unintended reverse polarity capacitance but increase the points where the electric field polarity is correct?

ion	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #15 on: 2014-09-10, 01:48:20 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2014-09-09, 15:11:38 Yes, my first thought. Apparently there is an ideal spacing. A little makes a slight improvement. Any more and the improvements are lost. Any ideas on how to minimize the unintended reverse polarity capacitance but increase the points where the electric field polarity is correct? I sometimes see strange winding methods used in some of the SM devices. The attached is one that seems to use either the old 300 ohm TV twin lead or multi-conductor wire, depending on how close you look. Other devices like the 7 inch unit seems to have reversals by wires looped into each other and doubling back after a hairpin turn. ......but this could all be illusory. Maybe if you sketch out exactly what fields you want, we can work towards a solution. I'm still a bit fuzzy on this. ------------------------ Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current Steve_Marks_-_Torroidal_Power_Unit(TPU)[23-02-08].JPG (15.89 kB, 322x184 - viewed 950 times.) Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current Steve_Marks_-_Torroidal_Power_Unit(TPU)[15-27-02].JPG (34.06 kB, 624x464 - viewed 943 times.) --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

poynt99

Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #16 on: 2014-09-10, 02:27:06 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...

In the big toroid picture, it looks to me like 6-conductor ribbon cable.

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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

BEP	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #17 on: 2014-09-10, 03:20:35 »
Group: Guest	I'm starting to see that there was no one basic configuration or layout. It appears that the collector could be a horizontal loop encased in all the other coils or one of the outer windings. It may have been dependent upon where he decided to take output - from the helical capacitor (when inner or outer) or loop (inner or outer). When the wrap seems to double-back... that is a good way to continue with the capacitive part and minimize unwanted inductance. The flat, low-grade 300 Ohm twin lead seems to appear in many places. -- the fields would be exactly as found around a current carrying single conductor wire Thanks for considering these thoughts. More later. It has been a long day.

ion	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #18 on: 2014-09-10, 13:31:27 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: poynt99 on 2014-09-10, 02:27:06 In the big toroid picture, it looks to me like 6-conductor ribbon cable. Yes, zoomed, you can almost count the individual conductors. From afar it looks like 300 ohm antenna wire. Ribbon antenna rotator wire came in 4, 5, and 6 conductors. Thanks for your input, Poynt. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

BEP	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #19 on: 2014-09-10, 18:01:17 »
Group: Guest	"Zoomed"? Yes, I see it now. Nice catch, Poynt. I have a 100' foot roll of rotor cable. The edge conductors appear to be 14ga. and the middle three about 20-22ga. Maybe reason to try it. The problem remains.... when you wrap (stack) the capacitances the electric fields alternate. The only solution I can dream up is to segment each other capacitor plate to a different voltage supply or separate each next capacitance with a passive delay line. I have a couple from old color TVs to try. They are just small copper tubes with a single enamel wire coiled around it.

BEP	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #20 on: 2014-09-12, 11:56:19 »
Group: Guest	Note to self, SAW filter/delays may be an option to sequential firing of helical capacitor segments - purely acoustic or some blend using magnetostriction or even piezo. Since such an application of SAW may create acoustic waves traveling around the diameter this may explain the audible frequencies recorded/by TPU diameter & gyro like action. My current concept of the helical cap/rotor-cable wrap could also and easily be a passive delay line. Perhaps some TPU iterations used physical placement and this inherent passive delay function to cause a circularly propagating wave of displacement current magnetics to 'squeeze' current from the collector loop?? --Sharing some thoughts before life takes over so maybe others can see the thought path and why I think this is the closest to realistic TPU operation without using exotic theories. So far, the hard part is just proving Heavsides' screwed up translations of Maxwell's fourth equation.

BEP	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #21 on: 2014-09-12, 12:10:38 »
Group: Guest	Just realized... Not working upside-down - Because a SAW was used and wouldn't work because of the pulse started at one end, only. When flipped the source was at the end of the arrangement instead of the start - so, no acoustic wave It would simply spin down to zero The compass pointed to where the displacement current magnetic field was strongest until full operation was in-play. Then, the compass needle would want to point straight up-or down due to the powerful magnetic field when load caused it to run with 'inherent gain'. This would also explain the closed clamp meter showing a current reading near the small toroids (because they were just devices using the same concept - not CMC's). I don't think I'm out of bounds on this.

ion	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #22 on: 2014-09-12, 13:31:19 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	WW said: Quote Not working upside-down -Because a SAW was used and wouldn't work because of the pulse started at one end, only. When flipped the source was at the end of the arrangement instead of the start - so, no acoustic wave Afro It would simply spin down to zero Quote Since such an application of SAW may create acoustic waves traveling around the diameter this may explain the audible frequencies recorded/by TPU diameter & gyro like action. Regarding the first quote: I would need to know why this would happen. Regarding the second quote: I agree and pointed to this as a possible explanation for the gyro action of the TPU in a conjecture post written a while back. (Acoustic Resonator Theory) http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1092.0. We were both in agreement on this point very early on. Your reply to this raised further interesting possibilities. The only other possible explanation for the gyro action that you proposed would be light particles like electrons circulating in a loop at close to light speed. (I agree) Your new "SAW" hypothesis opens further possibilities for an acoustic device. We should continue to discuss this but also some good experiments are in order. regards, ION --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

BEP	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #23 on: 2014-09-12, 17:37:38 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: ION on 2014-09-12, 13:31:19 WW said: Regarding the first quote: I would need to know why this would happen. Pretty stiff assumptions on my part for the totality of how the TPU really works. I need to think about how to show my reasoning on this without having to do a complete working design. I can see why this should happen in my head but explaining it isn't clear yet. Chances are good that this idea will wash out with experiments. We'll see. Gotta stay on track with the reciprocation between collector and capacitive winding, first. This is why I post these thoughts. Experimental results can drag me off on a tangent. Quote Regarding the second quote: I agree and pointed to this as a possible explanation for the gyro action of the TPU in a conjecture post written a while back. (Acoustic Resonator Theory) http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1092.0. We were both in agreement on this point very early on. Your reply to this raised further interesting possibilities. The only other possible explanation for the gyro action that you proposed would be light particles like electrons circulating in a loop at close to light speed. (I agree) I don't think electrons are what would be moving at those speeds. If they were, I'm pretty sure the collector should vaporize because actual electron movement should be limited to drift current velocities. This leads to another question in my mind.... is the dielectric seen in the cut-away the actual pathway for charge movement AND does that dielectric enhance the displacement current generated magnetic field? If the former, then some papers I've read on charge motion through dielectric would be correct. If the latter, then other claims of the dielectric extending the displacement current mag field would be correct. I haven't seen bench proof of either, so far. There are a lot of arguments on the functions of dielectric in such crossed fields. Many high-level papers point to it being highly effected in such cases. I am not sure but hope the dielectric is additive to the effect of the 'turn-capacitance'. This is one of the things that need to happen on the bench. Quote Your new "SAW" hypothesis opens further possibilities for an acoustic device. We should continue to discuss this but also some good experiments are in order. I'm sure acoustics play a huge part in this thing. So many questions........ So much experimenting needed..... I could lock myself in my man-cave for months and not have all the answers. Right now, if I even head that way the boss reads off another item on 'The List'.

ion	Re: Magnetic Field in a Capacitor - Magnetic field of Displacement Current « Reply #24 on: 2014-09-12, 22:56:29 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	WW said: Quote I don't think electrons are what would be moving at those speeds. If they were, I'm pretty sure the collector should vaporize because actual electron movement should be limited to drift current velocities. There are some that believe electrons can move very fast in a thin oxide coating or silver plating on the surface of a conductor (Barbat, DeGeus) I don't claim to know enough physics to argue the point. I do believe that electrons moving a lot faster than drift velocity (by some mechanism) could cause excess heating due to occasional random collisions. This then could be one possible answer as to why there seems to have been excess heating in the TPU devices. I regard the "fast particles causing the gyro effect" as a lower order possibility compared to the acoustic possibilities. There is also the possibility that both are correct and that the acoustic vibration somehow speeds the particles and both contribute to the gyro effect. We need not throw either out in favor of the other. Much bench work is needed, I have to find a starting point. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy