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img  Les Banki
electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « on: 2014-08-10, 06:37:38 »
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All,

8 times 'Faraday' electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply

On July 30, 2014, Stefan Hartman at 'overunity.com' started a thread he named:
Overunity electrolysis - 31 times more effective gas production than with DC

In my first post there (pasted below, slightly edited), I pointed out that the thread's title is misleading since the 'gain' is only 8 times 'Faraday' and I explained why.

“Hi Stefan & all others,

Please note that the title of this thread is misleading!

It is "only" 8 times 'Faraday'!

I received that Indian article on the 23rd of June, (5 weeks ago) from a friend in Germany.
Since then I have made a VERY thorough, in-debt analysis and extensive research into this method.

I have already designed a drive circuit but at this point in time it looks as if you cannot BUY, BEG, STEAL or BORROW a single SITh!  (Static Induction Thyristor)

I have e-mailed one of the Indian article authors TWICE, NGK Insulators in Japan once,
(I also contacted the Australian agent for NGK Insutators two days ago), China's Trade Commerce for names of manufacturers of SITh, etc., etc.

Needless to say, NO replies from ANY of them!

The method is REAL but some of the details may not be clear.

I have already written a detailed report and was about to publish it all when I discovered this thread.

IF you guys are interested, please read the attached document I named: "Nano-pulse electrolysis"

I have also attached the Patent which EXPLAINS very well how this method works!

To some, like 'MarkE', for example, I have this advise:

Please do some STUDY on "Static Induction Thyristors" and on IES (Inductive Energy Storage) as well as the difference between Inductive and Capacitive energy storage before you make further comments showing off your ignorance!!

To be blunt, you don't have a bloody clue HOW this method works!

One way or the other, I will get to the bottom of this in (hopefully) record time!

I may also be able to substitute the SITh with some other device (like a MOSFET).

More on all this later.....

Cheers,
Les Banki “

I wish to point out that my intention is NOT to entertain you by starting this thread!
Nor is it for starting endless arguments and abuse (see 'overunity.com' thread) or never ending “theorising”!

You should all know that I don't play games and I take this subject seriously.
I know there are several electronics engineers on this Forum but note that there is more to this than just electronics.
Practical experience with electrolysis is also required to understand the nano-pulse method.

As far as I am concerned, there is only ONE remaining problem to be solved to make this work.

Basically, there are two options:

a.  Try to get some Static Induction Thyristors (SITh)

If unavailable (due to high level suppression or whatever!),

b.  Substitute the SITh with some other device, for example a MOSFET.

This is where electronics expertise comes in!

All we need is a fast 'opening switch' which can produce pulses in the nano second (200 ns) range, withstand a fairly high voltage and can handle a few Amps of current.
Perhaps some additional components as well (and how they need to be arranged), as required.

I have attached a few articles directly related to this topic.
Those who are interested in this subject should READ them BEFORE making ANY comments!

Cheers,
Les Banki
   
img  Smudge
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #1 on: 2014-08-10, 12:17:36 »

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Hi Les,

In my past life I had reason to create 200 nS pulses from low voltage DC using thyristors that were incapable of yielding the fast rise times needed.  The solution involved the use of satureable reactors to sharpen up the leading edge.  This technology is readily available and I would be happy to pass on my knowledge and experience to you.  As a matter of interest the DC supply was 30 V and the pulses were for a radar transmitter in the kilovolt and kilowatt range.

Smudge
   
img  Centraflow
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #2 on: 2014-08-10, 12:50:55 »

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Hi Les

You know this is right up my street, you have seen what can be done, but it is not only the nano pulses, there are other things involved.

What is needed is very sharp high voltage, the current is not really important at this point. I have found that simple inductive flyback works, not only me but others too.

Using something like an IRF840 mosfet which will work quite happily in the Mhz area and at reasonable input voltages, 240v, driving a flyback arrangement with output half rectified, you can charge up aligned water clusters in distilled water, to the point of violent breakdown.

It is that violent breakdown where the current is created, 100's of amps, which your input does not see, but the water molecule does.

This can only be effectively done by creating organised water clusters (water capacitors in a chain, series linked). The very high voltage is needed to charge each capacitor to it's breakdown point very quickly.

There is still a lot of work to be done on water clusters, and it is this area of research that those who want to condem this system, will say that water clusters have not been proven, I say BS to them, the first to have found them, but not called water clusters, was Puharich, you only have to look at his patent to see the cluster drawing.

Puharich was copied by Meyer to a certain extent, his original papers were full of Puharich work, the main difference was the frequency of working, the end result was the same.

Now to make the system work as should be, there has to be two frequencies, one is for the nano pulses for charging, and the other is for creating the organised water clusters ( which are effective water capacitors in distilled water), both Puharich and Meyer used amplitude modulation for their two frequencies.

OK for those HAM's out there, I am a HAM, the modulator is variable in AM O0  that was the step charge :P

Now the third person who has done this separated the frequencies, one doing the high voltage charge and the other for water cluster organising. A 6 times frequency split seemed to enhance the efficiency due to hitting an infinite number of heterodyned mixes, but will work also at other frequencies albeit at a reduced efficiency.

More to come when I have time

regards

Mike 8)


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img  ion
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #3 on: 2014-08-10, 14:21:45 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2014-08-10, 12:17:36
Hi Les,

In my past life I had reason to create 200 nS pulses from low voltage DC using thyristors that were incapable of yielding the fast rise times needed.  The solution involved the use of satureable reactors to sharpen up the leading edge.  This technology is readily available and I would be happy to pass on my knowledge and experience to you.  As a matter of interest the DC supply was 30 V and the pulses were for a radar transmitter in the kilovolt and kilowatt range.

Smudge

I would be very happy to see some of your designs in this area. Those of us that have explored the TPU to a great detail have looked into saturable reactor pulse sharpening methods, so your input would find a ready and interested audience.

Thanks in advance.

Mike and Les, thanks for your input.

Regards, ION
« Last Edit: 2014-08-10, 14:46:46 by ION »


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img  PhysicsProf
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #4 on: 2014-08-10, 15:44:59 »
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Thanks for the input, Mike, Ion, Smudge, Les.

Quote
: 8 times Faraday electrolysis
-- where are the experimental measurement(s) showing this?
-- is there any replication yet?

Thanks.
   
img  Les Banki
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #5 on: 2014-08-11, 03:19:49 »
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Guys,

Thanks for all your inputs.

Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014-08-10, 15:44:59
Thanks for the input, Mike, Ion, Smudge, Les.
 -- where are the experimental measurement(s) showing this?
-- is there any replication yet?

Thanks.

Hi Steven,

Yes, there is.
Please read the Indian article.  It is all there.

In chronological order:

Japanese team discovered/invented nano-pulse method, published article in 2005-2006.
Russian team analyzed pulse behavior in various electrolyte concentrations, 2011.
Next, in 2012 the Indian article was published with results.

Mike,

Thanks for your input.
As you pointed out, I am already aware of what you are doing.
However, IMO, whatever your set-up is at present, it cannot be compared to the STUNNING simplicity of the published nano-pulse method.
Sure, your gas production may be a lot higher but hey, 8 times 'Faraday' will do very nicely (for now) with a minimal cost and unbeatable SIMPLICITY!

Yes, I am familiar with Puharich' work many, many years ago.  Same goes for Stanley Meyer.

All those experimenters who never managed to run their engine on HydrOxy only, will now have a chance to have them running with this method!

As for me, you already know that I have a COMPLETE design for a fully automatic Water Fueled Generator, using a quite ordinary (but high efficiency) series cell electrolyser.
I published it several months ago so it is in PUBLIC domain.  FREE.
Yes, it needs around 2kW to run the 7kW generator with full load but so what?
But yes, it will be nice to reduce the power input to below 100W!!

So, as you can see, I am not exactly 'stuck', only looking for improvements'!

Smudge,

Thank you for your kind offer.
I have read a few of your posts on the other Forum and I have also downloaded some of your excellent work!

Since there are others here who are also interested in what you have to offer, perhaps you could post it all here?

Or, in case you wish to have a more personal contact, here is my email address: lbanki at bigpond dot com (fix the address)

Same goes for all you guys here.....


Best regards to all,
Les Banki
   
img  giantkiller
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #6 on: 2014-08-11, 03:50:38 »

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Quote
All we need is a fast 'opening switch' which can produce pulses in the nano second (200 ns) range, withstand a fairly high voltage and can handle a few Amps of current.
JDO300's SSRBs and PC based controller perform beyond this.


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img  muDped
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #7 on: 2014-08-12, 04:15:55 »

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Thanks Les for providing all of the technical resource
materials.  It would seem that the "secret" of Stanley
Meyer's system is the very short pulse width and not the
high voltage of the pulses as many had believed.

It is revealing that the optimum pulse amplitude is
about 7.9 Volts. 


---------------------------
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img  Matt Watts
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #8 on: 2014-08-12, 04:47:52 »
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Les,

I have been scouring engineering documents looking for a combination of alternate components that are widely available in hopes of finding a substitution for the SIThy.  Any leads you may have come across I can follow?

The only SIThy part number I have even found is a RS1600PA40T1 by NGK Insulators Ltd, which looks to have specs considerably outside our intended use.

BTW, I have circuit boards ordered for what I'm calling my Universal Switch (IGBT based, bi-directional, high-speed, isolated); once those are in my hands I can test them against my pulse generator and see if I can do a pulse under 200ns, but I tend to doubt it even though I chose some of the best components I could find.  I truly think I would need a modification that has dual series drives with a controlled overlap--some mechanism where I have one semiconductor on and the other off then initiate the off pulse prior to the on pulse in such a manner to get a sharp blip of a pulse in between the two transitions.  Still working out all the propagation delays.  Even this may not elicit the needed fall time, but it's worth a shot until the scope says otherwise.
« Last Edit: 2014-08-12, 05:14:18 by Matt Watts »
   
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Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #9 on: 2014-08-12, 06:02:45 »

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It should be quite easy to construct the nano-pulse
circuit with MOSFETs and good high speed Driver Chips.

By use of the Static Induction Thyristor the circuit is
about as simple as it can be made, but the same or
better performance should be attainable with other
techniques.

Attached is document explaining Static Induction
Transistors.

Page 4 of the research paper has a statement which
is puzzling.  See attachment below.

The 100 MHz surely cannot be the pulse frequency.
« Last Edit: 2014-08-12, 07:05:22 by Dumped »


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  Les Banki
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #10 on: 2014-08-12, 08:50:48 »
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Quote from: Dumped on 2014-08-12, 04:15:55

It is revealing that the optimum pulse amplitude is
about 7.9 Volts. 


Dumped,

Yes and also look at Fig.7 in the Indian article (oscilloscope screen image) Trace 1 (Blue) which indicates about 7.5V

Quote from: Dumped on 2014-08-12, 06:02:45
It should be quite easy to construct the nano-pulse
circuit with MOSFETs and good high speed Driver Chips.

By use of the Static Induction Thyristor the circuit is
about as simple as it can be made, but the same or
better performance should be attainable with other
techniques.

Attached is document explaining Static Induction
Transistors.

Page 4 of the research paper has a statement which
is puzzling.  See attachment below.

The 100 MHz surely cannot be the pulse frequency.


My sentiments EXACTLY.


Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014-08-12, 04:47:52
Les,

I have been scouring engineering documents looking for a combination of alternate components that are widely available in hopes of finding a substitution for the SIThy.  Any leads you may have come across I can follow?

The only SIThy part number I have even found is a RS1600PA40T1 by NGK Insulators Ltd, which looks to have specs considerably outside our intended use.

BTW, I have circuit boards ordered for what I'm calling my Universal Switch (IGBT based, bi-directional, high-speed, isolated); once those are in my hands I can test them against my pulse generator and see if I can do a pulse under 200ns, but I tend to doubt it even though I chose some of the best components I could find.  I truly think I would need a modification that has dual series drives with a controlled overlap--some mechanism where I have one semiconductor on and the other off then initiate the off pulse prior to the on pulse in such a manner to get a sharp blip of a pulse in between the two transitions.  Still working out all the propagation delays.  Even this may not elicit the needed fall time, but it's worth a shot until the scope says otherwise.


Matt,

Generating short pulses is simple, easy and CHEAP.
Just look at my circuit diagram.  Set it up on a breadboard and you will see.

The mosfet driver ensures FAST rise/fall times and the pulses are clean and square.

If you want even shorter pulses, there are methods to generate them even in the ps range!

As for the SITh, I have just about exhausted all avenues!
I am still waiting for a response from Mr Naohiro Shimizu himself (yes, the one who developed the SITh for NGK Insulators!)
I am seriously suspecting "foul play"!!  >:-)

Cheers,
Les Banki
   
img  Smudge
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #11 on: 2014-08-12, 14:24:05 »

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Here is the circuit for a 200 nS pulse generator, based on a classical pulse radar modulator.  The energy is stored in a pulse forming network (PFN) that is really a lumped constant delay line.  The time delay is 100 nS yielding a pulse width when discharged through the load of 200 nS.  The number of elements determines the squareness of the pulse.  Impedance of the line is matched to the load impedance.  The PFN is charged resonantly (when the SCR switches off) via L1 to reach twice the supply voltage.  L1 is chosen to do this in less than the pulse interval then D1 holds the PFN at that voltage waiting for the next trigger to come along.  D2 prevents the charging current from passing through the load.  When the SCR is triggered the PFN voltage appears across the satureable inductor L2 and little current flows until L2 saturates.  Then the PFN discharges into the load.  L2 may be omitted if the SCR has a sufficiently good turn-on time (I am going back to the 1960's here when this design originated  :).  I guess things have got better since then and there now are a wide choice of semiconductor switches  :-\).  I can work up values for components when I know the full requirements such as load impedance, pulse repetition rate and so on.

Smudge
   
img  Matt Watts
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #12 on: 2014-08-12, 18:46:08 »
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Quote from: Dumped on 2014-08-12, 06:02:45
The 100 MHz surely cannot be the pulse frequency.

At a duty cycle of 99.9%, wouldn't a 200ns pulse limit the frequency to about 5MHz?

What I see on the scope shot is 100 Mega Samples per Second--not necessarily 100MHz.  Notice 200ns/division is the time base reference.


I also sent an email out to Dharmaraj C. H. <h2dharmaraj@gmail.com> inquiring about sourcing the SIThy component used in his research.  Nothing as yet.


Let me also get clarification on the 7.5 volts.  Is that per cell segment?  So a stack of 100 series cells would need approximately 750 volts?  I think the IGBTs I used can easily do that.

How about the inductor then in the IES circuit?  Is that needed to obtain the effect?  Can it be an air core winding, or would a ferrite core be better?

@Smudge,

A fellow by the name of Ronnie Walker has investigated the Stan Meyer water fuel cell for several years now and has concluded the whole secret to it is the pulse forming network.  He has confirmed the Voltage Intensifier Circuit (VIC) is simply just a tuned PFN.  Apparently, he is able to make a fair quantity of HydrOxy gas using minimal power.  I'll look forward to seeing his final setup, hopefully within a few months.
   
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Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #13 on: 2014-08-12, 20:18:35 »

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Quote from: Matt Watts
He has confirmed the Voltage Intensifier Circuit (VIC) is simply just a tuned PFN.

This makes much more sense now.  Naming it in such a way that its true
purpose is "masked" thereby assuring that most replicators will get hung
up on producing a high voltage spike served well to protect his (Stan Meyer's)
discovery.

The "secret" of very narrow pulses and how electrolyte solutions (or even
pure water) respond to them in order to "restrict" current flow is now
solved.  I suspect Electro-Chemists knew this response for a very long time.

Finding the proper combination of pulse frequency and modulating
waveshape should be straight-forward.


---------------------------
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img  Matt Watts
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #14 on: 2014-08-13, 05:57:47 »
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Double checking what Les posted in his attachment (not that he needs it), I wanted to take another look at the Indian research.

Quote from: Economical hydrogen production by electrolysis using nano pulsed DC
The maximum hydrogen output of 0.58 mL/Sec obtained at 18 watts.

... and the input power required is only 0.57 Watts for the same hydrogen output by the conventional DC
electrolysis.

Now the quick-n-dirty estimate I use for all my brute force series plate cells is something close to 220 watts per LpM--smaller is better.  Think I recall 129 watts per LpM is the Faraday wall.

So check me here, lets run their numbers:
18 watts per 0.58 mLpS
18 watts per 34.8 mLpM
18 watts per 0.0348 LpM
517 watts per LpM

Pretty poor if you ask me.  But they do say "Hydrogen output" not HydrOxy output, so it's possible they are using a split cell that is separating the gases.

Now their pulse method:
0.57 watts per 0.0348 LpM
16 watts per LpM

So I wonder if realistically we can do less than 10 watts per LpM.

I also wonder if plate area is our main restriction to production rate.  We can't push more amperage unless we use electrolyte.  We can only increase pulse frequency to about 2 MHz and I'm sure before that the gains roll-off rather flat.
   
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Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #15 on: 2014-08-13, 07:08:40 »

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Quote from: Matt Watts
So I wonder if realistically we can do less than 10 watts per LpM?

If anyone could attain such high efficiency it would surely alter
current thinking regarding Hydrogen as a fuel!

One must wonder - has anyone anywhere had equivalent success
with nano-pulsing of an electrolyzer?  The report must have been
read by many, many experimenters so someone, somewhere, must
have given it a go.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  Les Banki
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #16 on: 2014-08-14, 04:46:45 »
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Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014-08-13, 05:57:47

517 watts per LpM

Pretty poor if you ask me.  But they do say "Hydrogen output" not HydrOxy output, so it's possible they are using a split cell that is separating the gases.


Matt,

Yes, it is poor and I have already explained why.
Repeat:  Efficient DC electrolysis requires at least 20% catalyst concentration but the Indian test cells had only 0.4% concentration!

NO, they did NOT separate H and O! 
Their described cell construction could not do that!

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014-08-13, 05:57:47

So I wonder if realistically we can do less than 10 watts per LpM.


MUCH less than 10W/LPM!
I am NOT at liberty say more, in case Mike (Centraflow) considers that info confidential!  :-X
If you ask him nicely, he may (or may not!) give you more details!  8)

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014-08-13, 05:57:47


I also wonder if plate area is our main restriction to production rate. 

Correct.

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014-08-12, 18:46:08

Let me also get clarification on the 7.5 volts.  Is that per cell segment?  So a stack of 100 series cells would need approximately 750 volts?


The nano-pulse method will NOT work with series cells for reasons which are explained in the original Japanese article!

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014-08-12, 18:46:08
At a duty cycle of 99.9%, wouldn't a 200ns pulse limit the frequency to about 5MHz?


While your calculation above is correct, in practice, however, the pulse repetition rate will be restricted to about 200kHz or less.
That is because a certain amount of time MUST be allowed to reach the required current level in order to "charge" the inductor!

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014-08-12, 18:46:08

I also sent an email out to Dharmaraj C. H. <h2dharmaraj@gmail.com> inquiring about sourcing the SIThy component used in his research.  Nothing as yet.


Don't hold your breath!  Several others have also emailed him but he does not have the common courtesy to reply to ANY of them!

Cheers,
Les Banki
   
img  Matt Watts
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #17 on: 2014-08-14, 05:29:50 »
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Thank you kindly for the response Les.  Gets me up-to-speed on this technique.

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014-08-14, 04:46:45
MUCH less than 10W/LPM!
I am NOT at liberty say more, in case Mike (Centraflow) considers that info confidential!  :-X
If you ask him nicely, he may (or may not!) give you more details!  8)

Mike, can you please take a peek at my PM?
   
img  Matt Watts
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #18 on: 2014-08-15, 05:52:32 »
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So I have another idea...

What if we use rather high voltage switched through a step-down inductor/transformer to the approximate 8 volts?

Seems like I could handle enough current this way to drive some pretty large plates.

Bad idea?
   
img  Les Banki
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #19 on: 2014-08-18, 06:54:24 »
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Guys,

Perhaps some of you might be interested in this update:

I have received a response from NGK Insulators (Japan) a few days ago.

The one who responded is none other than Naohiro Shimizu (Dr, Eng., Senior Manager) himself!
(He is the one who developed the SITh and has expertise in pulse power electronics.)

I will not go into technical details here.
A brief (exact quote) from Mr Shimizu will have to do for now:

“I have a great interest in your applications.  In order to restart this study, I need catching up a  practical prospect of them. 
And for the development of the practical electric source, the feasibility study will be necessary.
The key for it is generating “high rising up rated” and “tailing” pulses.

Do you have a will to conduct this practical study with us? I hope to have your concrete proposal and to continue this discussion.
Thank you so much for your strong attention to our study!”

I promptly responded and I am now awaiting his answers to my questions.

That may take a while since he has downloaded my WFGP folders and he is most likely studying them now.
In addition, I also sent him my IES circuit diagram and description for his perusal and comments.

Cheers,
Les Banki
   
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Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #20 on: 2014-08-18, 18:00:13 »
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I wonder if you are about to  be robbed.

What is the agreed  basis for your cooperation?
   
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Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #21 on: 2014-08-19, 02:46:21 »
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Quote from: Paul-R on 2014-08-18, 18:00:13
I wonder if you are about to  be robbed.

What is the agreed  basis for your cooperation?

Paul-R

Considering the fact that all my designs are unconditionally FREE for everyone to use,
your comments are inappropriate and ABSURD!

Cheers,
Les Banki
   
img  Matt Watts
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #22 on: 2014-08-19, 04:01:24 »
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Keep us posted Les.  Hopefully Dr. Shimizu will offer up something that gives us a healthy jump start--for instance him sending you a few samples for you to try in your circuit.   O0
   
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Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #23 on: 2014-08-19, 13:31:50 »
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Quote from: Les Banki on 2014-08-19, 02:46:21
Paul-R

Considering the fact that all my designs are unconditionally FREE for everyone to use,
your comments are inappropriate and ABSURD!

Cheers,
Les Banki
How do you know  that they have the same attitude?
How do you know that they are not going to take out patents on aspects beyond what you are covering, i.e. the next stage? Or patents on the manufacturing of the device?

Here is some of his work:
http://patents.justia.com/inventor/naohiro-shimizu
   
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Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #24 on: 2014-08-19, 19:13:50 »

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Buy me a beer
Quote from: Paul-R on 2014-08-19, 13:31:50
How do you know  that they have the same attitude?
How do you know that they are not going to take out patents on aspects beyond what you are covering, i.e. the next stage? Or patents on the manufacturing of the device?

Here is some of his work:
http://patents.justia.com/inventor/naohiro-shimizu

Thank you for posting this.

Les I would heed this, from what I have seen I would be inclined to agree with Paul-R at this moment in time. Those patents are as good as a direct copy of my sabatier reactor using dielectric discharge plasma, I can prove the time scale, just too much of a coinsidence that he did the same in gas reforming etc, just covered up in several patents now issued :-\

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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