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Author Topic: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply  (Read 304420 times)
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img  lost_bro
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #275 on: 2014-12-12, 02:54:46 »
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Posts: 281
Quote from: Les Banki on 2014-12-12, 01:46:19
Hi 'lost_bro'

You can still use those boards (despite the design changes) with some minor modifications. 
Just follow the circuit diagram 'nanopup8.sch.pdf' but also look at the pcb pattern of the new, single board.

Note that the MOSFET (Q1) is a HV type (1500V) as the expected fly-back pulse amplitude is around 1000V or more!
Also note that there is NO "step-up" in the transformer!
The turns ratio is 1:1.

I hope this helps....

Cheers,
Les Banki

Thanks Les,

Ok, I will study the version 8 pdf...... Have some 1.6KV Cree SiC MOSFETS lying around waiting to be put to good use.  I'll check out the driver specs and figure out what I'll need to change to integrate them into this project. O0

I take it you recommend making the modifications necessary as to follow version 8 prototype and eliminate the 2nd MOSFET altogether.... The SiC MOSFET will fit pattern (TO-247) on the XFRMR PCB so I will have the driver on the first PCB and the MOSFET on the 2nd PCB......

Take care, peace
lost_bro
   
img  kampen72
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #276 on: 2014-12-13, 15:42:34 »
Group: Guest
@ All,

Updated:
this is the setup  for the CNC machine (for making the grooves)
Adapting  METABO OFE-738 (600W) with the circular cutting-saw.
Techn.Specs:
Cutting saw-blade HSS with center hole 6mm outside diam. 60mm with 60 teeth, blade thickness 0.55mm.
Spindel speed 10.000, feed rate moving-speed 350 mm per/min.
Board HDPE-1000 Green, thikness 20 mm, size 550 x 550 mm

Updated: see message # 272
See pictures showing the details.
   
img  Les Banki
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #277 on: 2014-12-15, 04:56:36 »
Group: Guest
Hi Alex & those who might be making electrolysers....! O0

Here is a dead simple, “fool-proof” test set-up for the electrolyser!

It eliminates the possibility of 'measurement errors' and unlike the 'ss2kweps', it does not need the 12V power supply!

Make up a power cord which can handle at least 10A.

A standard (10A) mains plug, a 15A fuse or circuit breaker in series, connected to the bridge rectifier (400V/35A) AC connections.
The negative connection of the bridge rectifier is connected DIRECTLY to the electrolyser and the positive is connected to the +10A DC 'moving coil' panel meter and the other (-) of the meter is connected to the electrolyser.
(make sure the polarity is correct!)

See attached circuit diagram.

By the way, this meter is intended to be permanently attached to the electrolyser, in order to continuously monitor the current.
The mechanical inertia of the 'moving coil' integrates the pulsating DC current nicely and the current reading is accurate enough for this purpose.

The bridge rectifier MUST be mounted on a heath sink with "thermal grease".

I suggest that you first fill the electrolyser only half way and read the current on the meter.

The rest should be obvious.....

If you also wish to monitor the total AC power consumption of the electrolyser, you can use one of those simple, cheap - and surprisingly accurate - power meters which are available just about everywhere!
Just so you know what I am talking about, I have attached an image of one.
There are many brands.  Expect to pay around $20 – 30. 
(The one in the photo is $25.00)

Cheers,
Les Banki

   
img  kampen72
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #278 on: 2014-12-15, 19:08:36 »
Group: Guest
Thank You Les,
very clear and understandable your instructions for TESTING the Electrolyser.

Today I finished in thermal hot-air welding the side walls and bottom of the Electrolyser tank.
   
img  kampen72
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #279 on: 2014-12-16, 19:20:51 »
Group: Guest

Continue assembling the Electrolyser tank.
See below picture(s)
   
img  Les Banki
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #280 on: 2014-12-17, 06:45:42 »
Group: Guest
Alex,

Sorry to be a “kill-joy” this time but while you do EXCELLENT mechanical work, unfortunately you seem to regularly either overlook or deliberately ignore some details of my writings/explanations!

As a result, you are going to experience problems which you may NOT be able to solve yourself!

One such 'problem' is the electrolyte (water) level detection and refill.

Everyone should read the short article I wrote many years ago, titled
“Re-fiiling electrolysers.doc”.
(attached)

This post is intended to serve as a reminder to all those who intend to 'replicate' my set-up:
there is a technical REASON for all the design details!

Quote from my 'Electrolyser_instructions.doc”:

“My electrolyser design is based on 0.55mm thick SS316 plates and the 'housing' material is
15-20mm thick CLEAR Acrylic (for the time being), for several reasons:
Compatibility with KOH, temperature resistance, ideal for optical level sensing & observing electrolysis activity, easy detection of electrolyte contamination, easy machining, etc.”

Clearly, both the inner and outer electrolyser tanks you are making cannot use the optical level sensing I designed for this set-up. 

Basically, there are only two other options:
Fit CLEAR (Acrylic) “windows” for the IR beams (which is possible but is NOT an easy task!) OR,
some other detection method (capacitive or magnetic proximity) needs to be developed.
In either case, you are on your own!!

Further, you seem to have also ignored my drawing of the end view of the double tank arrangement, which clearly shows the bottom to be removable (note the gasket!).
You choose to weld on the bottom of the outer tank, thereby having NO access to set up and adjust  the filling lever!

Cheers,
Les Banki
   
img  Paul-R
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #281 on: 2014-12-17, 15:05:37 »
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Posts: 1579
There are loads of automatic liquid level detection and top up systems. It is a common industrial problem.
   
img  Les Banki
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #282 on: 2014-12-18, 06:00:54 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: Paul-R on 2014-12-17, 15:05:37
There are loads of automatic liquid level detection and top up systems. It is a common industrial problem.

Paul-R,

No, this post is NOT just “having a go at you” but is intended to set the record straight for everyone about my entire WFGP design, which is simply NOT up for discussion or arguments.

It is what it is - take it – or leave it!

If anyone wants to change it in some way - by all means – DO IT!
But DON'T complain if it does not perform the way it was meant to!

The issue here is liquid level sensing and re-fill.

Has it ever occurred to you that I am familiar with virtually all available methods and have even designed some in the past few years for various purposes?

Sure, there are MANY different types commercially available but if you find one and try to implement it for this purpose, I wish you LUCK! 
You will need it!

It is obvious that you don't know the technical implications of sensing highly corrosive electrolyte level in the inner tank, which is inside another tank, also containing the same corrosive electrolyte!

Note that in my set-up – using OPTICAL (IR) sensing, there are NO sensors (or even parts of any  sensor or wire connection) in either tank!

In short: the entire level sensing in both tanks are done from the OUTSIDE!

Well, then, IF any of you can do better than that – be my guest!

Cheers,
Les Banki
   
img  kampen72
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #283 on: 2014-12-18, 19:43:20 »
Group: Guest
Dear Les,
thank you for your remark and warning note.
It's good to know that you are watching and helping.

Let me explain;
I have chosen to make the Electrolysertank with the HDPE board (black) because this is relative low cost, also the cell-tank board HDPE-1000 (green)
is low cost. HDPE-1000 black/green price euro 85,- and 110,- p/m2.

At my place the Acrylic transparent board in 20 mm thickness is insane expensive cost euro 450,- p/m2 without cutting, for each cutting they charge euro 7,50 extra.
 
Note: this is my first attempt to make a serie Electrolysertank and I want to explore the details in making it with relative low-cost material.

So far so good, now I succeed in making the groves and also the outside tank.
Next step is testing the outside-tank if it can hold 1 bar pressure without leaking, then I can testing it with electrolyte.
Later on I can always adapt the IR-level-sensing with optical lens.
Will continue next year, leaving tomorrow for Christmas Holidays.

Wish You all a MERRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY NEW YEAR.
Greetings, Alex

« Last Edit: 2015-01-13, 20:02:11 by kampen72 »
   
img  Les Banki
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #284 on: 2014-12-28, 06:40:23 »
Group: Guest
Timer for the WFGP

In my “Timer & timer interphase.doc” I have indicated that a timer is NOT essential for this project.

However, it is still annoying to find that the timer I picked for the task all those years ago is now hard to obtain outside Australia.

I designed the interphase circuit for it in 2007.
The timer – model 870A – is still sold here by Dick Smith but Alex (kampen72) has reported that they refused to supply him!  (he is in the Netherlands)

This could mean that they would probably NOT supply to any other country either!

Finding the original supplier or manufacturer (in China, of coarse!) is just about impossible!
(But even if you did find them, they would most likely NOT be willing to supply “one-offs”!)

All this prompted me to look for another timer, which is easier to obtain.

Yes, I found one with almost identical functions but which works somewhat differently (technically) and thus require a new interphase circuit.
I have already modified one of the new timers and have designed an interphase circuit for it.

Keeping in mind that some people might find it physically challenging to modify these timers (both the new and the old types) it would probably be a better idea to supply the timer & interphase circuit combination, ready to be used.

To give you an idea what these timers look like, I have attached a photo of both.

Note that the “old” 'timerint.pcb' was NOT published in the WFGP folders but the circuit diagram and the description were/are.

For those who may be interested in the pcb layout, I have attached the file in the original Protel format.

A very useful feature of BOTH timer types is that in their “Count-up” mode, they DO NOT cut the power off after 24 hours but continue running INDEFINITELY!!
 
Cheers,
Les Banki
   
img  kampen72
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #285 on: 2015-01-13, 19:45:44 »
Group: Guest
Dear Les,
Thank you for posting info about the NEW Timer.
Can You give us more details, model/type number and where we can order these?

I have now successfully finished the pressure test for my Electrolsyertank and also made a safety case for.
The Electrolyser tank is now fully covered shielded with a 3 mm thickness galvanised steel plate (as suggested by Les) and additionally the top/bottom
also the corners extra with a 3 mm thickness aluminium plate.

See below the pictures:
The black box with Amp/Voltage meter contains the electronic components for the Power Supply testing the Electrolyser (credit to Les)
« Last Edit: 2015-01-17, 20:07:31 by kampen72 »
   
img  kampen72
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #286 on: 2015-01-19, 18:52:17 »
Group: Guest
Updated pictures:
Above the black box with Amp and Voltage meter contains the electronic components for the Power Supply for testing the Electrolyser (credit to Les)

Pictures below showing the Anode/Cathode SS-316L plate(s) with the EPDM sealing:
Note: the Anode and Cathode SS-316L plate(s) placed between the green HDPE bars are of course only for illustration purpose.
These must be mounted on the inside wall of the Electrolyser tank.
« Last Edit: 2015-01-28, 19:03:46 by kampen72 »
   
img  kampen72
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #287 on: 2015-01-25, 12:22:10 »
Group: Guest
Updated pictures:
Assembling Electrolyser tank
« Last Edit: 2015-01-26, 18:34:17 by kampen72 »
   
img  kampen72
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #288 on: 2015-01-26, 18:33:14 »
Group: Guest
Updated pictures:
Black box Power Supply with Amp/Voltage meter:
contains the electronic components for testing the Electrolyser (credit to Les)
   
img  Centraflow
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #289 on: 2015-01-26, 18:58:04 »

Group: Experimentalist
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Posts: 2982


Buy me a beer
Very nice workmanship O0

keep at it

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
img  kampen72
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #290 on: 2015-01-28, 18:42:14 »
Group: Guest
Updated pictures:
Anode and Cathode END PLATES (2 pcs.) (90 x 100 mm with 2mm thickness) grade SS-316L
These must be mounted on the inside wall of the Electrolyser tank.
« Last Edit: 2015-01-29, 19:24:50 by kampen72 »
   
img  kampen72
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #291 on: 2015-01-29, 19:06:28 »
Group: Guest
Updated pictures:
Anode and Cathode END PLATES are now mounted on the inside wall of the Electrolyser tank.
   
img  Peterae
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #292 on: 2015-01-29, 19:09:04 »

Group: Administrator
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Posts: 3960


Buy me some coffee
Amazing workmanship Kampen  O0
   
img  kampen72
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #293 on: 2015-01-29, 19:14:35 »
Group: Guest
@ All,

Thank you for the compliments.......
Next week I will start with glasspearl blasting (non-ferro material, 80 grid) 2 of the cell-plates SS-316L just for TESTING.
When finished will show the picture(s).
   
img  Matt Watts
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #294 on: 2015-01-30, 03:19:30 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: kampen72 on 2015-01-29, 19:14:35
Thank you for the compliments.......

Beautiful workmanship Kampen, really looking forward to seeing how this performs.  If it works anything like it looks, it's going to be a winner.

Please keep all your jigs and construction tools--you may be getting some requests for replicas.
   
img  kampen72
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #295 on: 2015-02-04, 18:46:22 »
Group: Guest
Electrolyser Cell plate(s) surface treatment:

I have glass pearl blasted the surface of some cell-plates for testing purpose.
The surface of the SS-316L plates as you can see are very equal treated and testing these cells they perform excellent in making much gas, after a couple of minutes visible a milky water solution and NO bubbles are sticking at all on the cell-plates surface.

Unfortunately after the glass pearl treatment occurs massive distortion on the cell-plates and even with the lowest possible pressure (0.8 Bar) applied for blasting
the distortion occurs and this is a disaster in handling, unable to place them in the narrow slots.

Any advise and or help to solve this problem is welcome.
See below the pictures:
   
img  Propellanttech
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #296 on: 2015-02-04, 19:28:44 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: kampen72 on 2015-02-04, 18:46:22
Electrolyser Cell plate(s) surface treatment:

I have glass pearl blasted the surface of some cell-plates for testing purpose.
The surface of the SS-316L plates as you can see are very equal treated and testing these cells they perform excellent in making much gas, after a couple of minutes visible a milky water solution and NO bubbles are sticking at all on the cell-plates surface.

Unfortunately after the glass pearl treatment occurs massive distortion on the cell-plates and even with the lowest possible pressure (0.8 Bar) applied for blasting
the distortion occurs and this is a disaster in handling, unable to place them in the narrow slots.

Any advise and or help to solve this problem is welcome.
See below the pictures:

Unfortunately, you are peening the surface, which relieve stresses in the material. This causes the distortion. You may be able to heat the plates in the oven (540 F or as close to it as you can get) for a period of time(15 minutes or so), and they may relax. I'm not sure about stainless. I know steel will.

James
   
img  Les Banki
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #297 on: 2015-02-05, 00:39:03 »
Group: Guest
Alex (& others),

My “Electrolyser_instructions.doc” gives a clear WARNING about 'sandblasting' and also describes how and why “cross-hatching” should be done!

You either did not read it or choose to ignore the advise.

Keep in mind that the instructions in that document are not only mine but also from those who have been working with HydrOxy even LONGER than I have!

Further, just WHY do you think I have published as much information as I have?
To waste Forum “band-width”???

No, you cannot “save” those buckled plates.
End of story.

Cheers,
Les Banki
   
img  Propellanttech
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #298 on: 2015-02-05, 16:37:32 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: Les Banki on 2015-02-05, 00:39:03
Alex (& others),

My “Electrolyser_instructions.doc” gives a clear WARNING about 'sandblasting' and also describes how and why “cross-hatching” should be done!

You either did not read it or choose to ignore the advise.

Keep in mind that the instructions in that document are not only mine but also from those who have been working with HydrOxy even LONGER than I have!

Further, just WHY do you think I have published as much information as I have?
To waste Forum “band-width”???

No, you cannot “save” those buckled plates.
End of story.

Cheers,
Les Banki



Les,

Although I can't find your warnings about "sand blasting", Kampen didn't sand blast anything. He bead blasted it, and that is a totally different process. It does use air for propelling the media, but that is where the similarities end.

Can you state why bead blasting isn't an effective surface treatment?

James
   
img  kampen72
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #299 on: 2015-02-05, 19:11:40 »
Group: Guest
@ Propellanttech
thank you for your advise, will do and testing as suggested.

@ Les
good to hear from you again Les and yes I have carefully read your electrolyser instructions.doc
I do understand the procedure as described and also done by Bob Boyce.
However I am also aware that preparing these large amount of cells up to (140 pcs) with crosspattern sandpaper on both side is an extremely labor intensive process.
Now I am testing and looking to find an easy to handle method for the surface treatment of these cells.

Please note that I have NOT done the conventional SANDBLASTING process because these are mixed with ferro-metallic particles in the sand and these can/will contaminate the SS-316L surface of the cells. I have chosen to use GLASS-PEARLS 80 grade and this is free of ferro-metallic parts.

This is the best part:
after glass-pearl blasting cell plates I have tested these and have never seen before that much of micro-bubbles of gas production and NO sticky big bubbles on the cell-plate surface anymore.
My conclusion is that these surface treatment works very well and is comfortable to apply to handle/produce massive amount of cells-plates with a very uniform surface.
This can NOT be done that accurate by hand making the cross-pattern with sandpaper.

Greetings, Alex
   
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