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Author Topic: The Flywheel ?  (Read 82938 times)

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Dear All.

Today we are a step closer to the initial testing. My Son fully welded the support frame at his employers works earlier today. The results, attached below.

I had a very interesting chat yesterday with Michael Frost, who's findings were posted by Duncan at the beginning of this thread. He gave me a virtual tour of some of his devices. He also made me proud by saying that English Cast Iron was the best he has found !!
He uses Lister LT Diesel flywheels for his experiments.

He also said that Flywheels with a thick rim are better than just a simple disc. I am glad of that because I am using rimmed Flywheels.

Just a few more days, we shall see.  ;)  O0

Cheers Graham.


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Very nice fabrication Grumage I differ a little on the conjecture of why/how these things work from Michael F I guess fundamentally because I have  an electric view of things rather than mechanical, However after chewing the cud with Mike for quite some time I concluded that the practical steps we would each take building one of these machines would be much the same, A huge  difference is  .. Mikes actually done it.--- In spades it seems,  I instinctively consider the input and its wave shape Michael, and of course yourself Grumage work from a mechanical stance … nothing wrong with that ! Its just we are seeing the same picture from a different angle another difference is Michael has invested and spent more than I could even consider, In fact the truth is probably more than I have ever had to spend period.  Its clear he's built and tested lots of these machines the cost of just one of them would probably beggar me   ... he's then built some more,  as you probably noticed Grumage, He also has the active help of Vissie who I assure you is an extremely competent and respected electronics design/build guy. Chet asked the question that is key to my viewing angle of this system and it was this …. “with a pulsed variable input how can I accurately measure input /output” … Well for what its worth I long ago transposed that in my minds eye into … how might I actively transform the input into something very different … something effectively from a different dimension, something you actually can't measure with standard instruments. In this series of lectures given for school children in 1974 by Prof Laithwaite before he was effectively defrocked by the establishment he notes the quirk in ohms law, It is made clear that .. to wit .. under certain conditions you may have amps and volts yet consume no power ! 'Reactive power' here's our Will 'O' the wisp  surly?            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnNUTOxHoto we view this as a constant .. It isn't its AC after all ! Then to take the pulse of energy at the crossing of volts and amps … like flicking a big wheel now and again with the right timing is our ambition at least that's rather how I view things and what I was at pains to describe before  but as I say I think Its the same picture ...  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face. :
« Last Edit: 2014-07-03, 09:44:47 by Duncan »


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
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Duncan
On Michael's web site he referred to his math calculator ,it is in the section "evidence"

LINK HERE

http://www.backgauges.com/Gen-E-Sys%20II/evidence.html

** Gift - FREE Kinetic energy/ Fuelwheel Horsepower Calculator

** Video - Mathematical proof.

I can't open these links ,Michael says "its all there in evidence"?
He is actively seeking discussion/investigation on these links so as to qualify his claims.


thx
Chet



« Last Edit: 2014-07-03, 13:29:27 by Chet K »
   
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not working for me either Chet ... Proof is a huge word though often miss used, Proof has a very definite meaning to mathematicians (for instance) as an example Pythagoras theorem  is just that a theory .. despite humanities best efforts and millions of hours of computer time its never been proved or given a dimension. If it ever is … well many doors will open. It is acceptable to use one proof to support another , that's the base of a proof,  there in  lies a problem for me, we are so accustomed to Pythagoras theorem (for instance) that it has been used to support other so called … proofs. And what folks now call proof would be better described as .. ' an indication' It doesn't  connect to anything solid and absolute. Call me picky if you wish  but a concept of switching which has infinity , time. And the infinitesimal involved is going to challenge the very concept of proof at every level, that a thing may occur 1000 x out of a thousand is not proof .. its still just examples. That Mike offers an example that may well work is a very different thing from 'a proof' even if you build the thing yourself and it works as specified its still is a long way from being 'a proof' in the accepted sense. When a machine shatters the accepted norms that's amazing in itself, if a proof were written it would be understood by every discipline and that truly would be game set and match. It would be unnecessary to build the machine everyone could clearly see how and why it worked. That's the ultimate ambition I hope, not just to make a thing that goes COP>1 but also to prove it. and put that proof in the public domain, Its a big ask.     


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   

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Dear All.

Duncan, we are a few steps closer, one way or t'other !!   :)

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhMqM21zFSM

Cheers Graham.


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Looks very good for a first 'suck it and see' Graham .. nice clear video


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
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It's turtles all the way down
Nice work Grum

A couple of questions e.g. what is your protocol for input / output energy testing.

Maybe an idler pulley or two with a long throw might help to use your existing belt lengths. Also it can act like a slip clutch so you don't keep tripping your breaker trying to bring those massive loads up to speed.

Have you ever looked at some of the interesting musings of this man:

http://www.unifiedtheory.org.uk/

especially diagram #14


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Just my 5 cents  :)

With RPM reductors the kinetic energy is amplified at the cost of RPMs. But, if we have lets say, 3000 RPM low power motor and 300 RPM high power wind turbine generator(which will still produce 50/60Hz AC), the kinetic energy can be multiplied up to 10 times over RPM reductor which will allow to run up to ~10x more powerful generator on 300 RPM than motor used to turn RPM reductor input on 3000 RPM...


Cheers!
   

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Dear All.

Duncan, we are a few steps closer, one way or t'other !!   :)

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhMqM21zFSM

Cheers Graham.

Nice work. Now I know why you have not been answering your skype O0


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Electrostatic induction: Put a 1KV charge on 1 plate of a capacitor. What does the environment do to the 2nd  plate?
   
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Graham
That IS a big alternator !!
nice layout ,everything looks very strong  and fresh .

it will be interesting to see how you slap, tap and pulse your way thru these experiments.
also how to measure will be a challenge..


Thanks for sharing.

Chet

   
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Interesting build Graham,

 I might want to join the fun, do you have to have the flywheels in order?


Tom...
   
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Yes Grum, I hope you see something using those flywheels.  What I have so far without them looks to be a dead end.  Tried lots of electrical variations that I was curious about--no joy.

Seems to me the best method of process (MOP) is to use a multi-pole generator that can run properly at a lower RPM and a motor capable of much higher RPM and gear-down to obtain higher torque.  Then maybe the flywheel can provide the torque during the peek generator cycle load without RPM loss.  Instead of using a flywheel, I've been using a DC motor with large capacitors in hopes of electrically engineering the same thing.  As Professor Laithwaite mentions, this is likely a bad analogy, but I learned something, so it's not a complete loss of experimentation time.  Still think there is some more there to learn, so keep at it Grum.   O0
« Last Edit: 2014-07-04, 03:56:53 by Matt Watts »
   

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Nice work Graham O0

Very tidy

Regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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Matt
Is your experiment inputting some form of "disrupter" or Pulsing,   similar to Graham's theory and Michael Frost's
recommendation ?

Michael F has suggested that acceleration is ultimately the source of energy in these systems [pulsed or mechanically oscillated in some unique way]

Or are those rotoverter setups you are playing with?

thx
Chet
   
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Hi all,

 I just want to question some very important facts about flywheels.

A flywheel is a mechanical capacitor that stores inertia, the rotational energy is not free.

As ones draws power form the inertia spinning wheel, you will also have to add power to spin it back up.

Like a capacitor that gets discharge, it takes energy to regain the max charge again.

In the olden days power plants used flywheel to allow the generators to work more efficient so a greater load won't stall out the system.

Tom.
   
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Matt
Is your experiment inputting some form of "disrupter" or Pulsing,   similar to Graham's theory and Michael Frost's
recommendation ?

Michael F has suggested that acceleration is ultimately the source of energy in these systems [pulsed or mechanically oscillated in some unique way]

Or are those rotoverter setups you are playing with?

thx
Chet


My basic setup doesn't have any sort of mechanical advantage or interrupters, so the next step is to try something a bit more sophisticated:
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=1957.0
   

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Interesting build Graham,

 I might want to join the fun, do you have to have the flywheels in order?

Tom...

Dear Tom.

I have used almost the same pulley ratios as described below. Picture screen shot taken from PJ Kelly's E book.

Cheers Graham.


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
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Hi Graham,

 Thanks for the data, I have many questions:

1:

Mechanical load on motor will start out very high 2.2 times the starting capacitors load. This could be a big problem.
2:
The Flywheel mass will have 2x the inertia load, due to generator back EMF, but also All generators have BEMF when stator is energized, unless its a special type?
3:
The switch is also something to watch out for problems, BEMF will or could fry the contacts, might have to go with SCR?

Just something I wanted to add to this build.

Tom ???


 






« Last Edit: 2014-07-04, 23:27:23 by Tommey Reed »
   
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Looking at that image, I'm a little confused why you would gear-down and then gear back up again.  Is it simply to use fixed pulley sizes?  If you use an adjustable sheave as I have, you can go straight to the ratio you want.

Grum, you will likely want to use a variac to build motor speed slowly to overcome the massive loading as Tom mentioned above.  For a looper, I would highly recommend a transfer switch so you can get everything up to speed and stable off of mains power before you feed generator power back to the motor.  You may or may not want to transfer through the variac--really doubt it will make much of a difference either way, but keeping the variac directly connected to the motor will give you a little more adjustment to play with.
   
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I can't see this working without a rapid switch  / phase shift action involved, but many seem to see a way it might be done so I hope I'm wrong and Graham sees an immediate COP>1 effect,.As for Measuring energy in and out ? … well we've all seen endless pages of drivel on that subject but ultimately to see the system looped would answer most peoples questions. .. I don't think what you have there will work just  as you have it Grum and as you say your doubtful yourself … Still what you and your friend have envisioned has to be tried or you'll both forever wonder … if, if, if.  Classic mechanics tells us a flywheel can do nothing except store and deliver energy,  hence logical standard engineering says this won't work … what's the point of gearing up , only to gear down being typical so is tinmans comments … but the same classic mechanics tell us a bee would never fly! It surly isn't the mundane fact that this probably won't work  exactly as its drawn is it ? It is clear there must also be other factors at play here, Its also obvious that grumage suspects that too! but the weight size and configuration as P J Kelly has drawn is I guess as good a starting point as any for an investigation   ….  I suspect Laithwaite has it right with his view of  different angular dimensions only thinking like that can I see a picture of not just how Chas Cambells machine might work but many others. IMHO The reason why these machines wont work as drawn is no account is taken of the state and phase angle of the supply, Bone headed power in / power out die hard nay Sayer's can't grasp the possibility that a flywheel may, (if absolutely nothing else is available). convert reactive power. Chas Campbell then has fashioned the size weight and balance of his machine ' on the hoof' to the supply, he was probably totally unaware of what he was actually matching to. The odds of the same resonant configuration working on another supply would be astronomical. The missing link in P.J Kelly's drawing then is any one of the following  a/ an overloaded drive motor (load adjustable) b/ a switched / pulsed power supply c/ a tuned capacitor bank d/variable hydraulic loading all of these have been used on various systems I have shown else where , they all have the same effect they create a phase shift or distortion w.r.t the supply. So what's probably in the box here ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTLLnUOPOQk   capacitors to create that required phase shift is my opinion .. what's yours?                                                                  


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
Group: Guest
The only thing that makes sense to me is that somehow you create the conditions of time compression within the energy storage device, whether it be a flywheel or capacitor.  What I mean by time compression is that you are able to put energy into the storage device faster than you withdraw it out.  Frankly, I have no idea how that might be possible unless you have an asymmetrical, non-linear system.  And if you do happen to have such a system, how that energy gets in there and where it comes from may be a mystery for quite some time.

I came across a description termed: tempic field.  I believe Wilbert Smith was the author.  His concept (that he stated came from extra terrestrial life) was not time/space based as we typically use, but instead on fields where time as we know it is not constant.  If his words have any basis in reality, then it would seem likely time compression is not only possible, it may well be the only means to harness energy as we would like to do.

http://www.rexresearch.com/smith/newsci~1.htm#ch4field

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h5WFqg6px4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irrhscIn7qo
« Last Edit: 2014-07-05, 04:20:50 by Matt Watts »
   
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time is  flexable any way Matt that's been long known since the study of microbes and their variable aging process  in space. however in what I might call 'This reality we are not encouraged to think in these terms. As Laithwaite points out its a 'man made concept' . whatever is being used as a prime mover of this machine will be fed with a series of pulses be it 50Hz 60hz or DC switching or mechanical disruption , as Grumage is using a 50Hz motor I'll dwell on that .. The rotor is of course a flywheel in its own right and converts those pulses to a nice seemingly steady rotation , It is not possible for the motor to run at the applied frequency and the difference is called slip. The motors themselves also project a back emf onto the grid or in this case Grumages alternator (if he loops it) just like any other electromagnetic device. The power of these motors is then usually given in KVA and a phase angle quoted this originally allowed folks to correct the phase angle with an external capacitor .. if they needed to. This force is of course like all  back emf in opposition to whatever created it .. That being so its ambition is to distort and destroy  the symmetrical sine wave that created it. It does this with musical progression .... 3rd overtone 9th and so on. however what if .... you caught that back emf .... altered the angle even more until it was anti phase using either capacitors or timing  and then also fed that pulse to the flywheel .. putting it in crude terms there are now 2x 50hz pulses  being injected into the flywheel one we commonly call real power Watts and the other we know as reactive power var ... It seems as Prof Laithwaite suggests  that this Kvar (which is also known as ' the wattless component)' and drawn in a different dimension and mathematically expressed with a J operator  can be tempted into this reality and coaxed to transform back to real power through the magic of a flywheel. just to try and join a few more pieces together for you, Laithwaites second segment was on transformer action, he says quite clearly he has no idea how or why it works ... no one else has been able to offer an explanation either . here is another well respected researcher Chris Carson RIP .. enlarging on that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsrbaCJo3Qw&feature=kp and just to add a little to that here is a short clip by Tom B https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73rghTkRMU0  add those ingredients together and let it cook for a little while and you might see some light ..  So to re- cap – as Tom Bearden and Albert say energy cannot be created or destroyed ergo.. Its all around us in one form or another. The power station (for instance) is nothing at all to do with energy its a tool of profit and control. as Tesla discovered 120 odd years ago. It seems that with the right timing and phase angle a flywheel can perform that conversion .. I hope we see it done again soon ..              
« Last Edit: 2014-07-05, 09:06:51 by Duncan »


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
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Hi Duncan,

 I would not give to much credit on this build, my reason as stated:

1:
Why would anyone start out with motor speed and reduce first output shaft to 1.8:1 ratio. Reason is to get torque that will produce less rpm's
Any motor that runs without any load is a lost, I bet this ac motor draws 200 +watts just to spin it. Already you have a loss that can't be recover  :'(.
Friction is a small lost due to belts or chain, but it's still is a loss of energy  :'(.

2:
The second shaft is just off the wall in mechanical work that has to turn the flywheel, a heavy flywheel in fact.
This is just crazy to think this will spin no problem with the drive motor, you have great drag and load to over come.

3:
This one is the big drain the generator and will draw lots of mechanical load.
1 hp = 745.699872 watts or most people say 746.
What does this mean?
Lets look at the generator speed to produce energy, the generator is a two pole field, this means at 50hz if needs 3000 rpms (50hz*60seconds), or 3600 rpm's for 60hz.

Most generators need 135% hp of mechanical work to create 1 electrical hp, this is due to friction, and rpm's without any load.

This generator will spin 3,146 in the graph, this can be calculated to need (5252/3146)=1.67 foot pounds of torque, but this is 100% efficient.

The real input of torque will be above 130% or 1.67*1.30=2.17 ft/lb of constant load.
 
4:

If you look at the basic math you can see that 1.3hp motor or 969.8 watts of electrical energy needs  2.17ft/lb to create 746W, but this is just part on the lost of energy.

The motor input verse the output of generator is 3146/1430=2.2 times the torque is needed if  a pulley from motor to generator was connected, but it's not. Now added load due to friction is another problem that need to be over come.

The motor would need 2.17*2.2=4.77ft/lb now, you take 4.77*1430/5252=1.30 hp or 969.8 watts to produce 746 watts of output not adding friction lost to belts and pulley bearings.

The math says it won't work, even if you take the friction and bearings lost out  :'(.

Tom :D





   
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Hi All,

I would explain how this system works, the mechanical switching is a basic PWM, but in a mechanical sense of a way.

Lets set the relay to 50% Duty Cycle.

On/Off: 50%
If motor is turn on for a few millisecond, and generator load is off the only drain would be friction&motor lost.

Off/ON 50%
If the motor is off and the generator is on, you now have inertia lost due to spinning flywheel.

The question will be just how much energy is needed to recover the inertia lost?
I believe it's very big due to the fact the generator will pull 2.2 time the input load of spinning the flywheel.

   

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Dear All.

Steady forward progress made this afternoon, the results.....  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32a2SHkvsyc

I do, however, have serious doubts about the material integrity of my large flywheel. The engine it came from was rated at a continuous 500 RPM, pulsing admittedly, but not 1500 RPM !! It got pretty damn scary at 1300 RPM, I would not risk taking the thing any further !!

So, that's all for now folks.

Cheers Grum.


---------------------------
Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
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