Marinov Generator

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Author Topic: Marinov Generator (Read 54692 times)

Vasik041	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #25 on: 2018-05-02, 18:48:55 »
Group: Guest	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3IyiBDjOog May be interesting... Experiment #21 from Nikolaev's book. Motor and generator experiment. Unfortunately in Russian, but you can use auto generated and translated subtitles. Regards, -V.

Grumpy	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #26 on: 2018-05-02, 21:27:49 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	It is my opinion that this Marinov's motor/generator is just a variation of a homopolar generator. There appears to be no interaction between the magnet and the ring, but I thin this is a misinterpretation. Everyone argues that the magnetic field is contained in the closed ring magnet, and it is. It is assumed that the electric field in contained in the ring and this is incorrect as the electric field extends across the ring due to the differences in potential which exists whether the ring is driven (generator) or powered (motor). (see Jefimenko paper, page 20, figure 4, attached) Orthogonal magnetic and electrical fields and "rotation" are the common requirements for homopolar induction with both rotating conductors and dielectrics. Devices by Rowland, Wilson/Wilson, Roentgen, and Eichenwald all share these same requirements. (attached) ------------------------ Marinov Generator Wilson,_Roentgen_Rowland_Effects_Applications_of_Relativity.PNG (222.05 kB, 1008x853 - viewed 1389 times.) Demonstration of Electric Fields of Current-Carrying Conductors_jefimenko_ajp_30_19_62.pdf (1087.43 kB - downloaded 446 times.)

Smudge	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #27 on: 2018-05-03, 09:21:14 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: Grumpy on 2018-05-02, 21:27:49 It is my opinion that this Marinov's motor/generator is just a variation of a homopolar generator. Depends on your definition of "homopolar". If homopolar means a DC generator then it certainly is. But it is unlike the Faraday disc generator in that the conductor is not within a magnetic field so you can't use the flux-cutting rule that applies to the Faraday disc. Quote There appears to be no interaction between the magnet and the ring, but I thin this is a misinterpretation. Everyone argues that the magnetic field is contained in the closed ring magnet, and it is. It is assumed that the electric field in contained in the ring and this is incorrect as the electric field extends across the ring due to the differences in potential which exists whether the ring is driven (generator) or powered (motor). (see Jefimenko paper, page 20, figure 4, attached) But in those Jefimenko demonstrations the electric potential is supplied from an outside source. In the Marinov generator it is induced and it is that induction that does not obey classical rules and the whole point of the experiment is to show that. Quote Orthogonal magnetic and electrical fields and "rotation" are the common requirements for homopolar induction with both rotating conductors and dielectrics. Devices by Rowland, Wilson/Wilson, Roentgen, and Eichenwald all share these same requirements. (attached) Those experiments use something that is rotating in either an electric field or a magnetic field. In the Marinov generator the slip ring is rotating in neither of those fields. It is rotating in a constant magnetic vector potential field and that is the whole point, it is different. Current teachings tell us that the only measurable effect of movement in such a field is the Aharanov-Bohm effect which is a quantum interference effect and not an induced voltage effect. However the AB effect is adequately explained by the induction that hopefully will be demonstrated here. And if it truly exists it opens a new paradigm for overunity research. Smudge

TinMan	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #28 on: 2018-05-03, 11:01:30 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: Smudge on 2018-05-02, 15:47:22 The magnet assembly need not be the elongated pair of bar magnets with keepers, it could be a magnetized ring core. Unfortunately you can't buy a magnetized ring core made of hard magnetic material where the field is all within the core as there is no demand for such a thing. You can get circular arc segment magnets from KJ Magnetics and make a magnetized ring from them, FEMM simulation attached. Alternatively a soft magnetic ring core magnetized by a DC energized toroidal coil. Or if the induction is real then why not have that toroid AC energized, then the device will deliver AC. That would allow for voltage to be stepped up to something useful by using a transformer. Should still be OU as the energy would come from loading applied to the dipoles in the core, not from the current in the toroidal excitation coil. Smudge Could you not just use two horse shoe magnets joined together?. Would be a cheap way to achieve what you need. Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

TinMan	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #29 on: 2018-05-03, 12:30:29 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Budget setup-if of any use. Brad ------------------------ Marinov Generator Marinov Gen 3.JPG (38.5 kB, 717x511 - viewed 1340 times.) --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

PhysicsProf	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #30 on: 2018-05-03, 14:44:58 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	Quote from: Smudge on 2018-05-03, 09:21:14 Depends on your definition of "homopolar". If homopolar means a DC generator then it certainly is. But it is unlike the Faraday disc generator in that the conductor is not within a magnetic field so you can't use the flux-cutting rule that applies to the Faraday disc. ... Smudge The Faraday generator continues to be of great interest - nearly 200 years after its invention by Michael Faraday! Smudge: "But it is unlike the Faraday disc generator in that the conductor is not within a magnetic field so you can't use the flux-cutting rule that applies to the Faraday disc. " Let me ask this, - what if I rotate the magnet WITH the rotating Faraday disk, is there then "the flux-cutting rule"? and - will there then be a voltage generated in this case, or not?

Grumpy	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #31 on: 2018-05-03, 15:34:27 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: Smudge on 2018-05-03, 09:21:14 Depends on your definition of "homopolar". If homopolar means a DC generator then it certainly is. But it is unlike the Faraday disc generator in that the conductor is not within a magnetic field so you can't use the flux-cutting rule that applies to the Faraday disc. There is an electric field, common to the slip ring, that cuts across the magnet. I'm suggesting this method of induction is an electrical analog to Faraday Induction. Quote from: Smudge on 2018-05-03, 09:21:14 But in those Jefimenko demonstrations the electric potential is supplied from an outside source. In the Marinov generator it is induced and it is that induction that does not obey classical rules and the whole point of the experiment is to show that. This paper was just to show the electric field lines of a looped conductor. Quote from: Smudge on 2018-05-03, 09:21:14 Those experiments use something that is rotating in either an electric field or a magnetic field. In the Marinov generator the slip ring is rotating in neither of those fields. It is rotating in a constant magnetic vector potential field and that is the whole point, it is different. Current teachings tell us that the only measurable effect of movement in such a field is the Aharanov-Bohm effect which is a quantum interference effect and not an induced voltage effect. However the AB effect is adequately explained by the induction that hopefully will be demonstrated here. And if it truly exists it opens a new paradigm for overunity research. Smudge This was to illustrate the four similar homopolar methods that are already known, with both electric and magnetic fields. If the induced current is caused by the magnetic vector potential field, around the closed magnetic ring, isn't one side of this field in the opposite direction of the other side since the magnetic field vectors are in opposite directions? I would think that this would apply to my electric field explanation as well. There is a diagram here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_potential The effect is the same, either way, but how do you determine which field is producing the induction in the ring? What if you shielded the magnet from electric fields? Would the MVP still be there?

Grumpy	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #32 on: 2018-05-03, 17:38:55 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Sorry for the double post, but is the magnetic vector potential considered a "force"? It's units are the same as momentum per unit charge.

Smudge	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #33 on: 2018-05-03, 19:55:37 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: Grumpy on 2018-05-03, 15:34:27 There is an electric field, common to the slip ring, that cuts across the magnet. I'm suggesting this method of induction is an electrical analog to Faraday Induction. But where does your electric field come from? If you say it is from the slip ring movement through the magnetic vector potential field then you are agreeing with this approach. Quote This paper was just to show the electric field lines of a looped conductor. Yes, a thin looped conductor connected to a voltage source. It demonstrates the electric field from the varying voltage drop along the wire. Quote If the induced current is caused by the magnetic vector potential field, around the closed magnetic ring, isn't one side of this field in the opposite direction of the other side since the magnetic field vectors are in opposite directions? Depend on your viewpoint. The field passes through the ring magnet so it is in the same direction both sides. But if you look at it as a field coming out of the ring then in one side the vector points outward and on the other side it points inward and I suppose you could consider that as "opposite". It is easy to show that the new induction term yields the same polarity from brush to brush over top and bottom halves of the slip ring, so it induces voltage into the external circuit. Of course that comes from the forces on the mobile conduction electrons. On the lattice ions there is of course forces in the opposite directions so the reaction on the slip ring is a sideways one trying to move it towards one of the brushes. And thereby comes the OU, there is no reaction torque, no circular force around the slip ring. Luckily it can be shown that when the generator is driving current through a load electrons hop from brush to slip ring or vice versa and therefore undergo acceleration, and the radiated E field from that acceleration acts on the atomic electron circulations in the magnet extracting energy that exactly accounts for the generator output. Quote The effect is the same, either way, but how do you determine which field is producing the induction in the ring? There is only one field there, the magnetic vector potential A field. There is no E field and there is no B field from the magnet Quote What if you shielded the magnet from electric fields? Would the MVP still be there? The A field can't be shielded like that, so it would have no effect. Smudge

Grumpy	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #34 on: 2018-05-03, 20:09:44 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Phipps noted that there is a back EMF associated with the Marinov Generator and provides a rough formula for it in the summary of this paper. ------------------------ Observations of the Marinov Motor-Phipps-v05n3phi.pdf (273.04 kB - downloaded 353 times.)

Smudge	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #35 on: 2018-05-03, 20:19:41 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: Grumpy on 2018-05-03, 17:38:55 Sorry for the double post, but is the magnetic vector potential considered a "force"? It's units are the same as momentum per unit charge. It is considered to be the source of so called "hidden" momentum, or "canonical" momentum, a form of momentum that is not related to velocity or mass. Hence a particle with charge q within an A field has this hidden momentum of value qA pointing along the A direction. The particle obeys force=rate-of-change of total momentum, F=d(mv+qA)/dt (bold characters are vectors). So yes, force is involved. You already know that with transformer induction the secondary coil is outside the core, is not within a B field, and the alternating A field is what drives the electrons in that coil. There you have a static coil and a time changing A field producing the force. In the Marinov generator the A field is static but it is non-linear, so an electron moving through it "sees" a time changing A value because of that non-linearity, hence it gets a force. It is that form of induction that is not recognized classically, although it is the subject of much debate. I find it odd that the debate has not been settled by experiments such as those suggested here. It is only the Marinov motor that has been played with and that has given odd results, just ask TK! There the electron velocities are very low and there is an assumption (wrongly IMO) that the tiny longitudinal induction will cause the slip ring to rotate. Just how the force translates to the lattice ions is beyond me. Smudge

Smudge	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #36 on: 2018-05-03, 20:36:09 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: Grumpy on 2018-05-03, 20:09:44 Phipps noted that there is a back EMF associated with the Marinov Generator and provides a rough formula for it in the summary of this paper. That was in 1998 but AFAIK the independent observations have never been published. That formula is classically what you get for any efficient generator where output watts equate to shaft input power, and IMO Phipps used that to hint that the observations were on a generator that simply obeyed COE. I would be most interested to see someone else's work on the Marinov generator, but years of searching have not revealed anything. Smudge

Grumpy	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #37 on: 2018-05-04, 00:09:15 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	I don't know if this paper is helpful, as I just found it and have not read it. https://skemman.is/bitstream/1946/29521/3/KOK_MagneticVectorPotential.pdf Hal Puthoff is on page 47 (communication system). See bottom of page 64: Quote In the authors view, the most significant part of the work is the factorization of the convective derivative of the magnetic vector potential resulting in the force terms in Equation (5.11a) to (5.11d). These could in theory lead to new techniques of current induction without magnetic fields, by the movement of particles within the magnetic vector potential field, possibly practical in motor and generator design

Smudge	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #38 on: 2018-05-04, 09:04:01 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: Grumpy on 2018-05-04, 00:09:15 I don't know if this paper is helpful, as I just found it and have not read it. https://skemman.is/bitstream/1946/29521/3/KOK_MagneticVectorPotential.pdf Hal Puthoff is on page 47 (communication system). See bottom of page 64: Note the date, 2018. So this is quite new. Another extract from the document is Quote The truthfulness of the above statements will have to be verified with experiment. New ways of induction in the absence of magnetic fields would open doors in generator and motor designs. This matter is thus quite significant. The expansion of the convective term for the magnetic vector potential into (5.11a) to (5.11d) is original to the best of the authors knowledge. Well that expansion is not new, I have several papers from other authors where that expansion is followed (including Phipps and written 20 years ago!). IMO the jury is still out as to whether the Marinov generator is feasible and I am hoping for evidence that it is. If I am right it could lead to OU but there would be engineering challenges. A machine built by the likes of the researchers here on this forum would likely not be OU because of those challenges, brush friction and voltage drop would degrade the performance to below 100% efficiency. But it appears to me that the device is inherently OU and those degradations could be overcome. Thanks G for bringing that paper to my attention, I'll add it to my stack of papers on the subject. Smudge P.S. I have met Hal Puthoff and corresponded with him.

Grumpy	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #39 on: 2018-05-07, 16:57:07 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Perhaps there is a way to manipulate space and the magnetic vector potential that occupies it rather than trying to utilize the feeble manifestation of the magnetic vector potential in the Marinov Generator. My point with this statement is that the output of the Marinov Generator is so low.

Centraflow	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #40 on: 2018-05-07, 18:40:58 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2982	Quote from: Grumpy on 2018-05-04, 00:09:15 I don't know if this paper is helpful, as I just found it and have not read it. https://skemman.is/bitstream/1946/29521/3/KOK_MagneticVectorPotential.pdf Hal Puthoff is on page 47 (communication system). See bottom of page 64: Thank you as well Grumpy. Zimmerman I have had dealings with on Researchgate, he writes patents like they are going out of fashion. As you know I am working on the magnetic vector of a loop, as in transmitting loops and wave interference as my idea on the TPU, it is looking good ATM, but still a ways to go me thinks Regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

Grumpy	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #41 on: 2018-05-07, 18:50:52 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	from the paper I linked above, page 51: Quote Interestingly there exists a controversial generator/motor design known as the Marinov motor or Siberian Coliu which was explained with the force term ∇(qv·A) by Stefan Marinov. Theoretical physicist James P. Wesley (1998) agreed with the analysis and noted that the Hopper-Monstein effect, another example of induction with a zero magnetic field, could be explained by it as well. I don't recall what the Hooper-Monstein effect is. I'll have to look that up. « Last Edit: 2018-05-07, 21:28:58 by Grumpy »

Centraflow	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #42 on: 2018-05-07, 19:00:14 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2982	http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/hoopmnst.htm Regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

Grumpy	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #43 on: 2018-05-07, 21:39:04 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	I looked up the Hooper-Monstein Effect and find it very interesting. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjgqPGvuPTaAhWKiOAKHYXiBhAQFggwMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsciencepublishinggroup.com%2Fbook%2Fdownload%3FchapterId%3D4953%26stateId%3D8000%26fileType%3D4&usg=AOvVaw3SfvZsglGQkUyvnqXndny1 See image page 171, quote below on page 172: Quote The experiment shows in this case that – in reality, the electric potential and the electric current are induced by the magnetic potential A and not by the magnetic induction B=rot A, the A vector being circulary oriented around the magnet axis and of mutually opposed circular sense for the two magnets, the total magnetic potential in the P-point being of value: AT =A1+A2=2A, also when the magnets are rotated in the same sense, so-the electro-magnetic induced effect in the P-point is of double value, in this case, [3].

Smudge	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #44 on: 2018-06-03, 17:00:00 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	I like Tinman's idea for using a plastic food bowl for a quick budget experiment. His idea of using two horseshoe magnets should work OK but of course the output is low voltage DC. I think an AC experiment is worthwhile because if this really works and is OU then it will need AC generation. This is easily achieved by using a soft ferromagnetic ring core driven with AC. Many of you will have small ring cores that would fit into a plastic drinking glass, so that could be a route to a budget experiment, see images below. And you will have oscilloscopes that can easily measure low voltage AC to compare with the input. If it works there should be low voltage AC output that is independent of frequency, in phase with the input current and proportional to rotation speed. If that is achieved it shows there to be an unusual form of induction that could be OU in that output energy is not derived from the input to the coil, but comes from whatever space energy keeps electrons perpetually spinning and orbiting. Anyone up for this? Smudge ------------------------ Marinov Generator Marinov Generator.jpg (137.67 kB, 541x519 - viewed 1147 times.) Marinov Generator Connections.jpg (117.52 kB, 689x371 - viewed 1213 times.)

Smudge	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #45 on: 2019-04-25, 16:30:51 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Bump! This thread seems to have died for some reason. As the final post was for an interesting experiment that would produce low voltage AC (that can be transformed), and not low voltage DC (that cannot be transformed), I am surprised that no one has taken up the offer to make one. Alas I can't do it myself as family circumstances have me living with our granddaughter and I have no tools or equipment. Smudge

Orthofield	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #46 on: 2019-04-25, 16:38:21 »
Sr. Member Posts: 331	Hi Smudge, I always thought this was an interesting experiment to replicate. Marinov was certifiable, but he occasionally had a good idea.. F.

F6FLT	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #47 on: 2019-04-29, 13:46:13 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	Quote from: orthofield on 2019-04-25, 16:38:21 Hi Smudge, I always thought this was an interesting experiment to replicate. Marinov was certifiable, but he occasionally had a good idea.. F. Hi Orthofield The subtlety of Marinov's motor is that the conductors do not bathe in the magnetic field and yet, a force is exerted, which can no longer be defined as Lorentz's force. However, the weakness of the effect leads me to believe that it is of the second order, or non-existent if it is only an experimental artifact as claimed by some physicists who have refuted this motor. In any case I think that we should be able to find a first-order effect, i. e. where the force depends on B, but always with B=0 in the volume of the conductors, in the same way as B=0 at the secondary winding of a transformer, the field being confined in the magnetic core. In this case, the natural explanation would be the vector potential A. At my knowledge, there is no motor using A instead of B, while it is very common with induction. This would be a novelty to use A for a mechanical effect. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Smudge	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #48 on: 2019-04-29, 15:09:45 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: F6FLT on 2019-04-29, 13:46:13 In this case, the natural explanation would be the vector potential A. At my knowledge, there is no motor using A instead of B, while it is very common with induction. This would be a novelty to use A for a mechanical effect. The Aharanov-Bohm effect is well known and there are several authors who show that this can be explained by change of electron velocity, i.e. a mechanical effect. In my view of the Marinov motor the longitudinal effect on the moving electrons should show up as a change in resistance, not movement of the whole lattice to include the ions. What interests me is the Marinov generator where the lattice of ions plus conduction electrons is driven at speeds far in excess of drift velocity. Now the purported effect coming from movement through a non-uniform A field will apply oppositely directed forces to ions and electrons thus causing the potential difference across the brushes. My efforts in this field are reported in this thread where I obtained definite results, but using magnets that also supplied a B field so they are not conclusive. What I am hoping for is an experiment using a ring core where there is no external B field. Smudge

F6FLT	Re: Marinov Generator « Reply #49 on: 2019-05-01, 11:16:16 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	The Aharanov-Bohm effect is slight. I am looking for an effect as powerful in mechanics as that of the potential vector A on the electrons of a coil traversed by a variable magnetic field, producing a current while B=0 in the volume of the wire. The same force that generates the current should be obtained transversely, resulting in a mechanical force on the conductor. It is the idea of implementation that I am looking for on my side in terms of a new generation of homopolar generator. The only thing in common with Marinov is that the conductor on which the mechanical force is exerted is not immersed in a magnetic field. Marinov opened the way with his idea, but his idea uses the spatial gradient of A, and I think we can use dA/dt as in induction, which should make possible a much higher mechanical force. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

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