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Author Topic: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf)  (Read 41274 times)
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Grum
Your intuition makes sense,My comment was based on the PDF's direction .

Good stuff happening here!
thx
Chet
   

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I have been giving this some thought,and think i have a cheap way to convert a standard gas engine to do what you want it to do.The biggest problem is like ION mentioned-blow by. If we take a standard single cylinder engine(e.g,honda,chonda,robbin,etc),there would be enough meat on the piston to remove the standard piston ring's,and machine one of the piston ring grooves to take a hydraulic ram seal. The cylinder can then be polished using a buffer disk of right diameter,and cutting compound- used to cut and polish car paint.This will give the cylinder a mirror finish to ensure a perfect seal.These seal's will handle a quite high temp,and i dont think this type of setup would generate much heat at all within the engine-in fact, i think there would be freezing problem's insted.

My question about this setup working is-how do you recompress the gas back to a liquid state?,as it will take as much energy to do that,as what the expanding gas would give off.


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My question about this setup working is-how do you recompress the gas back to a liquid state?,as it will take as much energy to do that,as what the expanding gas would give off.

Your excess energy comes from a heat source (ambient) @ around 3:1 worst case or 5:1 with scroll compressors, you will have what you need to drive a generator. Should be no problem where you are Brad, just put a nice big radiator in the sun and pump the normally cooling water around the engine. The other thing is the liquid/gas phase change, the liquid is injected at TDC and the flywheel pulls a vacuum with the piston as it goes down, liquid then changes instantly to gas creating expansion. There is a big volume difference between liquid and gas phase, this is where your power comes from.

The best AC heating units can work with an ambient down to -10c, it is amazing what heat you can get from a temperature of -10c (+50c) takes some getting your head around that one O0

If the whole sump was sealed from ambient but connected to the low pressure side of the system, and the oil changed to a compressor refigeration oil, there would be no problem I think if there was some leak by the piston rings.

My musings ;D

regards

Mike 8)


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So I have to ask, would it simply make more sense to use an old single bore compressor as the engine?  Wouldn't the cylinder and rings already be suitable for this sort of application?

I'm assuming we would still need the exhaust valve, but the intake could be removed and replaced with an injector.
   

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So I have to ask, would it simply make more sense to use an old single bore compressor as the engine?  Wouldn't the cylinder and rings already be suitable for this sort of application?

I'm assuming we would still need the exhaust valve, but the intake could be removed and replaced with an injector.
Almost all compressor's use reed valve type setup's,which would not work in this case.there were very few that used mechanical valve's. There was one that i know of,built a long time ago(early 60's i believe) that used what was called a Dean rotary valve system. Suzuki motorcycle's also had a few modle's with this type of valve system on there two stroke engine's. We can use the standard 4 stroke engine with a few mod's-one i listed above. The other mod's needed would be to replace the inlet valve with the injection nozzle/injector setup,and regear the cam shaft to a 1:1 ratio to the crank or build up a second lobe on the exaust side of the cam 180* to the one already there-not so hard.This will give us an exaust phase every stroke.


But thinking some more on this,i believe i may have a far more efficient device to use as the engine,but getting my hand's on one may be tricky.Im going to leave this one out,until i can(if i can) get one


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Hello all!

I will be happy to take part in this, I can not see any major problems to get this working as I am sure others allready have.

I  am working with refrigeration of all kinds since 25 years, today I also work with everything you can find inside trains.. :D

As long as the output from the expansion inside the cylinder can power the compressor to turn a little more refrigerant into liquid state than was used in the expansion we will be home safe..

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Here is the perfect engine for this, I heard about it some time ago but never really thought too much about it, now it came to mind C.C

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w27heVUxDQ8

just need the compressor, I wonder why they have not thought of it :-\

by using ambient heat and a 5:1 compressor, vola O0

problem is I don't think it is on the market yet

regards

Mike 8)


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Here is the perfect engine for this, I heard about it some time ago but never really thought too much about it, now it came to mind C.C

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w27heVUxDQ8

just need the compressor, I wonder why they have not thought of it :-\

by using ambient heat and a 5:1 compressor, vola O0

problem is I don't think it is on the market yet

regards

Mike 8)

Dear Mike.

Amazing !! We spent years developing steam engines to be as efficient as they could, using expansion. And now just waste it !! I was under the impression that the engine you linked to is solely pressure orientated ??

Perhaps you could correct me?

BTW. I could not see the exhaust !! Did you?

Cheers Grum.


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Hi Grum,

the exhaust is on the head at the side, in the center of the head is the injector, the exhaust is recycled through a condenser and reheated again, it is a sealed system like what we are talking about, the only difference in reality is water to steam or gas to liquid.

I am sure a good machine shop could make this, it is not complicated, infact it is very simple but brilliant, so why have they not thought of using freon or other AC gas such as CO2 (higher pressure). Airconditioning used to be part of my business here in Spain, both design and installation along with central heating and gas installations.

regards

Mike 8)


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Nice engine there Centraflow.

Now,as much as i look,i cant find at what preasure's different gasses turn to liquid-dose any one have a chart?. I have never delt with refrigeration system's befor,so have very limited knowledge(next to non) of how to turn the gas back into liquid. I know the gas needs to be recompressed,but is it cooled first,and then compressed back to liquid?.Dose it take less preasure to recompress the gas back to liquid,(after it has been cooled) than the preasure given by the liquid to gas inside the engine.


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Yes, this is where I get confused too.  Seems like time is being ignored somewhere.  It takes a certain amount of time to heat the liquid just below its critical threshold, then the liquid is injected into the cylinder and nearly instantaneously it turns back to gas.  After this, it takes time again to get the gas cooled down enough to recompress back to a liquid, then you're back heating it up again.  So the part where you make power from the phase change is quick, but all the other stages are relatively slow.  This tells me it would be pretty hard to loop, because you need to balance the quantity of material on both sides of the phase change and do it in essentially the same amount of time.  Is that possible?

Maybe it's time to play a little numbers game here.  Lets suppose I have one of those five cylinder engines and for every power stroke I need to inject 1cc of liquid.  So for one complete revolution, I need 5cc.  And lets say I need the engine to run at 1800 RPM to drive a generator shaft.  Okay that's 30 revs per second each using 5cc, or 150cc of liquid per second.  Now lets say the exhaust pressure for each cylinder is right around ambient and the volume is ohh, 200cc.  So now I have 5*30*200 cc of gas to deal with every second, gas that I need to recompress back to liquid.  That's 30,000 cc per second.  1cc = 1ml, so that's 30 Liters per second of gas?  What kind of a compressor is it going to crunch down 30 Liters of gas per second, back to liquid?  Seems like it would be a monster.  Granted I'm pulling these numbers out of my rear end.  I think the principal is sound though.  Can this really work?
   

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I think we are missing some explanation, to say the least. Matt you are about right if the exhaust exit pressure is not taken into consideration on the second cylinder, this is where we are missing information!!!

I am taking it that only even number cylinder engines can be used, 2,4,6,8 and @ 180 degrees, this was not explained very well in the pdf. I take it as this eg. in a 2 cylinder engine, one cylinder is in power stroke and the other in exhaust, energy will be used up in the power stroke to exhaust the other ??? so is this a 1:1??? No it is not, why, because we use gas phase and ambient (or other) heat and create up to 5:1, we now have a X4 gain.

When you look at say a fridge there are two pipes, flow and return. The flow pipe, thin pipe, is the liquid pipe, when the liquid passes into a higher volume area it changes phase to gas at that critical moment of volume change. The expansion is huge, far greater than the area it is expanding into, this is where we can take advantage of the phase change. This critical phase change moment is altered by heat, the liquid to gas phase change will cool but adding external heat at this point changes this volume relation of phase change, this is where we gain power.

I hope I have explained this, not very easy thing to explain, if you have questions ask and I will try to answer.

The important thing is even number cylinders, I think :-\ could be wrong on that but maybe the author can explain more, I see he is around here as a new member O0 also reduces problems of pass by of rings

regards

Mike 8)


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Nice engine there Centraflow.

Now,as much as i look,i cant find at what preasure's different gasses turn to liquid-dose any one have a chart?. I have never delt with refrigeration system's befor,so have very limited knowledge(next to non) of how to turn the gas back into liquid. I know the gas needs to be recompressed,but is it cooled first,and then compressed back to liquid?.Dose it take less preasure to recompress the gas back to liquid,(after it has been cooled) than the preasure given by the liquid to gas inside the engine.

Brad I will get back to you on your questions, I have to go out and pick up mother in law for lunch >:-)

regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Propane was mentioned as one of the "refrigerants" in the PDF.
some interesting info here

http://www.propanecarbs.com/propane.html



thx
Chet
« Last Edit: 2014-05-18, 12:29:04 by Chet K »
   

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Hi Chet

Thanks for the link O0

Yes LPG can be used as a refrigerant O0 you can see this as when you use a large amount from a bottle, the bottle freezes.

Brad, yes the gas is cooled first (a radiator) as on the back of a fridge, the more you can cool it the less energy is required to compress it into it's liquid phase, the reverse happens to change from liquid to gas, reduce pressure and heat it. This is where the gain comes by using the ambient temperature, this temperature is your fuel which can be multiplied by use of the gas/liquid phase change, COP >1, depending on design can be 5:1.

Yes it takes less pressure to liquefy the gas if it is cooled, think of aqualung tanks, to charge them with air you put them in a bath of water to keep them cool, pressure will heat and decompression will cool, small volume to high volume will cool and large volume to small volume will heat, so the volume of pipes and tanks is important to the efficiency.

Hope this has answered your questions.

regards

Mike 8)

I used to do design work for a couple of large Japanese companies until my heat exchanger patent ran out, that is used by all AC companies in the world, 97% efficient.


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Grum

 the exhaust on that engine is through the drive system, this would relate to the AC piston compressors and why I mentioned sealing the sump on an engine and connecting to the low pressure side of the loop. The oil and refrigerant are in a mix together on the low pressure side and why the oil has to be changed O0

regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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it would be good to Know how much energy it takes to take propane vapor back to liquid,I am told there are typically
Huge losses during this process [compressor only 20% efficient [thx Rob Mason].

If the fellows running this  replication claim  are "topping it off" with bottled Liquid [do to leaks from an as yet not perfected motor design ] ,that could be an issue..?


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I am still thinking about the pass by of the cylinders if only one cylinder engine is used, I would need to calculate the pressure and vacuum differences in the system, and that can't be done without building it and measuring each part ??? or knowing the type of pump, volume of each part (vacuum/pressure in one cycle) then we have a variable which is the cylinder volume, oh well just have to suck it and see ;D

regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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it would be good to Know how much energy it takes to take propane vapor back to liquid,I am told there are typically
Huge losses during this process [compressor only 20% efficient [thx Rob Mason].

If the fellows running this  replication claim  are "topping it off" with bottled Liquid [do to leaks from an as yet not perfected motor design ] ,that could be an issue..?

thx
Chet

Yes it is also my concern and why it has to be a totally sealed system, everything welded up tight. :D

regards

Mike 8)


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 With all respect to Chris Hunter,  the Replication claims outlined in this PDF were done autonomous of Chris's input.

I am quite sure Chris completely understands what this tech needs to work ,hopefully down the road
we will get a chance to see that........[that is the intent,  open source]

Thx
Chet
« Last Edit: 2014-05-18, 13:23:19 by Chet K »
   

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So let me see if im in the ball park here. So looking at the pic below-we have our liquid tank/reservoir which has to have some room above the liquid level-so tank isnt totally full with liquid.From this tank ,the liquid would run down to an expansion tank(this is where liquid turns to gas?) From the expansion tank,the gas(which is under preasure)flow's into the cylinder when the inlet valve open's.This ofcourse forces the pistion down,and give us our power stroke.At BDC the inlet valve has closed,and as the piston starts to head back up,the gas flows out of the exaust valve.This then flow's to the pump,and the pump now pump's the hot gas to the condencer.The gas that is under preasure,then cool some what in the condencer,and return's back to liquid. ???????.

It seems to me that there must be some sort of preasure regulator between the tank and expansion chamber,to ensure that the preasure is higher on the pump,condencer,tank side of the system.


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So let me see if im in the ball park here. So looking at the pic below-we have our liquid tank/reservoir which has to have some room above the liquid level-so tank isnt totally full with liquid.From this tank ,the liquid would run down to an expansion tank(this is where liquid turns to gas?) From the expansion tank,the gas(which is under preasure)flow's into the cylinder when the inlet valve open's.This ofcourse forces the pistion down,and give us our power stroke.At BDC the inlet valve has closed,and as the piston starts to head back up,the gas flows out of the exaust valve.This then flow's to the pump,and the pump now pump's the hot gas to the condencer.The gas that is under preasure,then cool some what in the condencer,and return's back to liquid. ???????.

It seems to me that there must be some sort of preasure regulator between the tank and expansion chamber,to ensure that the preasure is higher on the pump,condencer,tank side of the system.

Dear Tinman.

Not quite correct, as I see it. The liquefied refrigerant is stored in an accumulator above the working cylinder and is admitted via a timed valve into the expansion (combustion if we were talking IC) chamber. The PDF was suggesting using the Spark plug hole as our means of injection. Upon admission the liquid instantly turns to it's gaseous state and provides the increase in pressure to move the piston. Return stroke then moves the gas to the condenser ready for our compressor to convert the gas back to a liquid state , thus on to the accumulator for the next cycle.

So it would seem that a single cylinder 4 stroke engine would not be suitable for this MO !! Far better a 2 stroke or as Mike suggests possibly a purpose built engine!!  My own thoughts on this is maybe steal from our past!!  Use a double acting steam engine cylinder so that part of the gaseous state can be compressed into the working cylinder, creating heat during the compression stroke which should seriously enhance the following expansion stroke !!

May I humbly suggest you guys look up the work of George B Brayton and his gradual combustion engine? As I see it his cycle is the reverse, instead of using heat to expand in the cylinder we are using a material that has two states, liquid and gaseous !!

Cheers Grum.


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Hi Grum
I do have the  accumulator above the engine cylinder-so that part is good.As i mentioned in a previous post,the 4 stroke engine can be modified to opperate as a 2 stroke engine quite easly. The reason i have the expansion chamber is to reduce the possability of ice forming on the engine itself. The inlet valve would then become your timed valve to allow the gas into the cylinder-this is ofcourse after the mod's,so as the inlet and exaust valve open every stroke. All the video's i have watched today on refrigeration system's ,show the pump befor the condencer ?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIlcn_qlQfc&list=HL1400419696&index=7


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Hi Guy's

The expansion tank is not needed, the expansion tank is the cylinder block. The expansion tank as you call it is an accumulator (buffer) nothing more. Injected is liquid and not gas, as the piston goes down the volume increases and the liquid turns to gas at it's critical phase change, this creates huge expansion and drives the piston the other 90 degrees (we are told the liquid enters for the first 90 degrees).

When the outlet (exhaust) opens at BDC, the cylinder is then from the pressure side of the compresser to the vacuum side of the compresser (reverse), so we have a type of power stroke for 270 degrees or more.

For me it really has to be an even number of cylinders for this to work 2,4,6,8 etc. I can't at this moment see a 1 cylinder running efficiently, it has many problems.

regards

Mike 8)


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Sorry very rough

mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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