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Author Topic: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf)  (Read 41262 times)
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img  Mehmet
Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « on: 2014-05-11, 23:15:59 »
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About a two weeks go, two guys successfully were able to convert gasoline powered generator engine to run with a refrigerant fluid/gas.
This was done in a fully looped closed system. After initial start up, generator was totally self powered and was able to run 3 times more
load that generator was designed power it so. Probably a short period of time, or else generator would burn up a fuse etc. 

Another guy "Bill" who knows these two guys wrote this pdf file.
Seems good and clear instructions and part numbers and all that but there is no drawings or pictures yet. To what is worth, I am sharing with you.
   
img  Chet K
Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #1 on: 2014-05-11, 23:43:14 »
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Mehmet
Is this "Alaska star" Chris Hunter??
must be,    it has been a quite a few years since I last spoke with Chris
a truly wonderful and gifted young man .........

think I'll give him a ring when I get back home next week.

thx for sharing this ,

Chet K
   
img  Mehmet
Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #2 on: 2014-05-12, 00:49:51 »
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Hi Chet,  I think so, but  never spoke to him myself. But I know the Bill that he is touch with him (two them). Hopefully some one can make a simple drawing to ad to these instructions. Nice  to have a drawing that goes with it. Apparently there is somebody else that started to test this idea, you can the read the rest here. http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/84740/Refrigerant-for-engine-power-not-freon-for-Solar-generator .

Years a go the "Famous Dennis Lee" proclaimed that they create a similar generator that draw the power from environment. He called "Fisher Engine" you can see that engine picture here http://www.abodia.com/f/Images/Dennis1.gif 

Mehmet.
   
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Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #3 on: 2014-05-12, 02:33:50 »
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It's turtles all the way down
l'd think there will be some piston blow by, allowing the working gas to bleed into the crankcase. The crankcase will have to be sealed or the working fluid will be lost. This means probably having to seal off the PCV orifice and maybe even add some positive pressure to the crankcase.


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Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #4 on: 2014-05-12, 08:42:22 »

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I am very glad to see that Alaska Star has apparently
succeeded in his effort to make such an engine.  He
began work on it several years ago and kind of "disappeared"
from the forums.

Mrgalleria has done a lot of work with electrolyzers.

Good to see that the two of them have teamed up on
this project.
 


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Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #5 on: 2014-05-12, 13:52:33 »

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Chet
Here is that video i was talking about. Not to sure about this guy?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt_hqmgwMBU


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Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #6 on: 2014-05-12, 14:14:34 »

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Quote from: ION on 2014-05-12, 02:33:50
l'd think there will be some piston blow by, allowing the working gas to bleed into the crankcase. The crankcase will have to be sealed or the working fluid will be lost. This means probably having to seal off the PCV orifice and maybe even add some positive pressure to the crankcase.

Hi ION
You dont want a positive pressure in the crank case,as this will act against the piston when it is in the power and inlet stroke.The simple fix is to let the PCV valve do it's job,and that is to relieve crank case pressure.In almost every engine(4 stroke) the crank case pressure go's through the PCV valve,and directly back into the inlet,via the air filter. The ICE is not the ideal engine design for this setup.You would be far better using a diaphragm based engine for this kind of system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljb7R09f-8k


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Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #7 on: 2014-05-12, 15:45:47 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Quote from: TinMan on 2014-05-12, 14:14:34
Hi ION
You dont want a positive pressure in the crank case,as this will act against the piston when it is in the power and inlet stroke.The simple fix is to let the PCV valve do it's job,and that is to relieve crank case pressure.In almost every engine(4 stroke) the crank case pressure go's through the PCV valve,and directly back into the inlet,via the air filter. The ICE is not the ideal engine design for this setup.You would be far better using a diaphragm based engine for this kind of system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljb7R09f-8k

While your statement is true for a single cylinder engine, it is untrue for any even number of cylinders, as when one is going up another goes down, the pressure evens out. That is what I was referring to.

A diaphragm pump would definitely be a better choice. Heat pumps are generally sealed systems so careful attention must be paid to shaft seals, dipsticks etc. if one is trying to convert an ICE to a heat pump or heat motor.

Piston blow-by is real.


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img  Mehmet
Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #8 on: 2014-05-12, 18:07:31 »
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Quote from: ION on 2014-05-12, 15:45:47
While your statement is true for a single cylinder engine, it is untrue for any even number of cylinders, as when one is going up another goes down, the pressure evens out. That is what I was referring to.

A diaphragm pump would definitely be a better choice. Heat pumps are generally sealed systems so careful attention must be paid to shaft seals, dipsticks etc. if one is trying to convert an ICE to a heat pump or heat motor.

Piston blow-by is real.
Ion, I agree with diaphragm pump idea, it's a very good choice. But what would you do with diaphragm pump? Circulate fluid to power hydraulic motor?  How about air motor, would it not work?
   
img  Grumage
Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #9 on: 2014-05-12, 21:15:28 »

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Dear All.

Chet phoned me, all excited !! I have read the PDF about 3 times over, well the relevant bit's anyway and I have one pertinent question.

The process seems simplicity in itself but??  Let us take a simple 100 cc Petrol / Gasoline side valve engine, perhaps from a Lawnmower.  Compression pressure would reach just over 100 PSI (7Bar approx.) The suggested injector is designed to inject into the inlet manifold not directly into the cylinder. Motorcraft are rating their injector for a maximum gas pressure of 4 Bar. We immediately have a problem that when the injector is opened the gas will see 7 bar of pressure in the cylinder versus 4 Bar on the injection line !! It aint goin to work !!  :)

Apart from that one single problem the working principle seem sound. So I think we need to find a suitable direct injector with a delivery pressure greater than the compression pressure. All other worries like piston "blow by" can be easily dealt with by the use of a suitably placed NRV and returned into the low pressure side for reuse.

Thoughts ??

Cheers Grum.


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Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #10 on: 2014-05-12, 21:22:59 »

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_rail

Quote
Third-generation common rail diesels now feature piezoelectric injectors for increased precision, with fuel pressures up to 3,000 bar (300 MPa; 44,000 psi).[1][2]
   
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Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #11 on: 2014-05-12, 21:57:19 »

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Quote from: Peterae on 2014-05-12, 21:22:59
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_rail


Dear Peterae.

I am quite familiar with the common rail Diesel engine injector and yes a great idea. But we only need, say 10 bar max !!  I wonder whether the maximum ratings for the LPG injector could be exceeded ? I have had very little to do with Refrigeration equipment. How much pressure can be generated by a small Vehicle Air Con system ?? 

I am quite seriously interested in this one !! I have several Donor Suffolk Colt lawnmower engines to play with and I am also, luckily enough,  to have a friend who's business is LPG conversions and  also does Aircon repairs. Ace in the hole !!  O0  I will ring him tomorrow and ask some questions. And I hope get some answerers that I can share with us all?

Cheers Grum.


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img  Chet K
Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #12 on: 2014-05-12, 22:12:46 »
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Grum
I will try to get in contact with Chris again
This is a project he was building last we spoke.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:ArcticTek:Chris_Hunter_(Alaska_Star)'s_Axial_Flux_Motor

 Yes this is very intriguing .

I also started a topic here [some  interest here]
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/17019-chris-hunter-alaska-star-releases-o-u-pdf.html#post255631

Chet
   
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Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #13 on: 2014-05-12, 22:18:30 »

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Hi Grum

Here's some info about air con pump pressures
https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060718155308AAjfrPU

I will keep quiet now as i am sure you know a lot more than me on this subject, is interesting anyway  O0
   
img  Chet K
Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #14 on: 2014-05-13, 12:17:09 »
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more to come.........
I am corresponding with Chris

I have invited him to assist.

Will keep you posted.

thx
Chet
« Last Edit: 2014-05-13, 13:21:07 by Chet K »
   
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Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #15 on: 2014-05-13, 17:31:01 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Many say a sealed system turbine is the way to go for recovering waste heat.

Here is a company that has 5 models in production.

http://www.infinityturbine.com/ORC/ORC_Waste_Heat_Turbine.html

I explored the patents on this and other designs and find they go way back to the 1930's

Rather than try to retrofit / modify an ICE with all of it's problems, piston type refrigeration compressors might make more sense.



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Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #16 on: 2014-05-13, 18:03:30 »

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Everyman decries immorality
 ;D

Love this...

On the Horizon is PRotoMax, AHELNI, PHELIS, HRT and other integratable technologies.

Cannot wait!

 O0

http://www.overunity.com/10347/ahelni-advanced-hydro-electro-lytic-nozzle-insert/#.U3JPxCiUMYE



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Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   
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Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #17 on: 2014-05-13, 18:10:45 »

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Quote from: Chet K on 2014-05-13, 12:17:09
more to come.........
I am corresponding with Chris

I have invited him to assist.

Will keep you posted.

thx
Chet


Dear Chet.

Many thanks, but is it really this simple ??

Cheers Grum


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img  Chet K
Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #18 on: 2014-05-13, 21:06:38 »
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Grum
Pretty Much,
 and I have verification from Chris that it works "GREAT"as outlined in the PDF....
for the sake of a better replication I will see if a Pic can be shared?

thx
Chet
   
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Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #19 on: 2014-05-14, 11:58:12 »

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Using this below but recycling the CO2 you have what is proposed O0

http://www.infinityturbine.com/ORC/New_-_Supercritical_CO2_System.html

regards

Mike

PS.

Their heat exchanger could be a lot better, my patented system would be up to 20% better. >:-)


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Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #20 on: 2014-05-14, 12:17:04 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Actually it can be very simple, just one moving part, turbine and pump running on the same shaft in a totally sealed system with a hot end (evaporator) and cold end (condenser). See attached.

A long time ago,I came up with a design that inverts the turbine and pump shown in the drawing, at opposite ends of the sealed container and circulates the working fluid through the hollow connecting shaft.


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Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #21 on: 2014-05-14, 12:53:42 »

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Nice ION, I like things simple O0

But to get a prototype built from parts easily got hold of I would suggest a turbo charger from a car engine might be adapted as the turbine, they are designed just as we want, to work off expansion of gases

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger

I designed one to work on H2 and N2 many years ago ;) This one built by Aaron of EF under my plans and direction just for that purpose :D

regards

Mike


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #22 on: 2014-05-14, 13:39:37 »

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Dear All.

A bit of history. As there is nothing new !! Old ideas in new clothes !!

See attached from 1873.  Patent granted 1868.

I have a 1/3 rd scale partially built model of this.

Cheers Grum.


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img  Chet K
Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #23 on: 2014-05-14, 14:04:45 »
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Graham
good stuff
there are a few other places where this thread will be "mirrored"

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/17019-chris-hunter-alaska-star-releases-o-u-pdf.html#post255715
and here
http://www.overunity.com/14628/chris-hunter-alaska-star-releases-an-o-u-pdf/msg402360/#new

For clarity Graham will be replicating Chris Hunter's [AlaskaStar] work with the intention of a public showing in the UK next month.

For additional Clarity My use of the "OU" term in those threads is a bit "Hollywood" but has roots in Perspective....[looped closed system].
old habits die hard!!

thx
Chet
   
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Re: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf) « Reply #24 on: 2014-05-14, 20:52:53 »

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Dear All.

I have thought of a simple possible method of overcoming the cylinder pressure. We could close couple a "Mainline" gas solenoid valve  (these are designed to shut off the gas from the supply tank on LPG vehicles)  to an Oil fired boiler spray nozzle !!  This idea might just work in providing an atomised spray of liquid refrigerant into the cylinder.

I have just finished in conversation with Chet and He is convinced we need two cylinders for this engine to work? I on the other hand think that a "Decent" flywheel should do the trick. Think about it for a moment. We are just using a material that expands within the cylinder !! Identical to igniting a fuel air mixture. That works singly, doesn't it ??

Cheers Grum.


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