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Author Topic: Controller No 4 - Dual Fet Driver - Looking for Explosions in Wires  (Read 59547 times)
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Not sure of the speed of transient suppressors ,varistors, they are worth a look at as they are a available in many voltages. Let us know if appropriate they do sink spikes very well.
Steve.
   
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You can give the spark arrestor a try but this requires a wait period for charge to build up. This period may allow the damage point to be reached. It may be all in the sizing.
Same problem with most transient suppressors.

The cap won't be of much use unless you bleed it.

In the old days I would just connect a few NE1's or 2's in series across the switch. Add a pot in series for some adjustment. The problem with neon bulbs is just before lighting the gas they act like negistors. This may confuse things.

All this would make creating such short spikes difficult if not impossible.

Have you thought of just firing a part of the coil?
What I mean is - center tap your coil... fire fewer turns and let induction work on the whole coil. Less voltage would be required to create a much higher voltage across the complete coil.
I have doubt about getting the results you wish.

Maybe switch to FETs firing self-quenching spark gaps?(Pic shown is a sketch of a symbol I haven't seen in a while.)
« Last Edit: 2010-05-03, 01:03:34 by WaveWatcher »
   
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Hi,
Theres a possible use for a zobel network here if correctly worked it should do. Ok on varistors speed, ww, Its knowing exactly what needs addressing to find the remedy. It could be a time related effect and this changes everything. The cure then would involve a different control device completely. Semi's have a relatively slow electron transittime.
   

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I use the series circuit depicted in this paper:    http://cmosedu.com/jbaker/papers/RSI621991.pdf    and 100 pf caps across each transistor (except the triggered one) from collector to emitter to ensure avalanche (discussed on page 1).

I have run various versions of this for hours with a 1500v dc, 1ma supply pulsing various coils and resistors.  The trigger device must be isolated.

Peter, what voltage range to you have available? 
   

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Hi G
I am using a variable PSU 0-125 VDC up to 1Amp for the coil supply.
The problem i have is that with this setup i need 70 volts on the coil to cause the instability and hence create the explosion noises to study, but at this high supply voltage my fet's are dying, when i first built a setup sometime ago now and i first discovered the explosions i only needed 45 volts to get the instability and explosions and my fet's lasted quiet a long time

So far i have blown 600v diodes across the fet and 900v Fet's.

I will have a read Thx
   

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Hang on a minute, if it's over volting the fets, how come only 1 blows, after all both fet drains are connected to the same end of the coil, it's nearly always the delayed fet that blows. ???

EDIT: I have had the diode blow across drain source as well, so what does all this mean, a very large back emf in the coil when i get the explosions?
but then why only the delayed diode as well, surely both diodes would burn, but the non delayed fet is off to protect the fet from a current surge.
   

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http://www.jensign.com/opto/speedoflight/index.html

2N2369 avalanches in the 50v to 70v range

about a pound a piece:  http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp;jsessionid=JU5VNVCUD1RU0CQLCIQZN4Q?N=0&Ntk=gensearch_001&Ntt=2n2369&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&displaytext=&_requestid=171940

EDIT:

2N4401 av's at about 40v

When looking for the avalanche threshold, you want a clean avalanche and not a lot of noise or high resistance.  I use the circuit in the paper above with a small cap for setting the pulse width, and slowly tunr up the supply until is free-runs, then look at the signal for high spikes on the scope.  If spikes are low or stretched out, or nothing but noise, then set it aside and try another one.  Attrition rate is about 10% or less.  You need a load (choke?) to limit the current when it conducts.


« Last Edit: 2010-05-03, 21:52:08 by Grumpy »
   
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Hang on a minute, if it's over volting the fets, how come only 1 blows, after all both fet drains are connected to the same end of the coil, it's nearly always the delayed fet that blows. ???

EDIT: I have had the diode blow across drain source as well, so what does all this mean, a very large back emf in the coil when i get the explosions?
but then why only the delayed diode as well, surely both diodes would burn, but the non delayed fet is off to protect the fet from a current surge.

My best guess: Because the collision is happening IN the delayed FET and/or diode. Your source of coil noise is sneaking into the switching device.
   
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The diode in the conducting device may be at a slightly higher temp so will conduct but this is an assumption based on thermal DD logic problems. As  they are in similar ambient  conditions its a slight possibility.
There is a piece of info on wiki on avalanche transistors  that may be of interest although brief.
Cheers.
   

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maybe it's the internal diode in the fet thats melting and making the fet appear faulty, if they are both on the same silicon this could explain whats happening.

Could i place a fast diode in series with the coil to stop back emf to the diode but still allow the fet to do it's switching job.
   

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wouldn't the diode just avalanche and fail if the current is too high? 

...and why only the delayed FET?

   
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Or.. use basic devices that have caractoristic curves instead of hard specs.


   
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Peterae,

Are you able to see the return EMF(E1) resulting from the delayed pulse? That big relaxation pulse(E2) and the negative oriented pulses(E3) after it should be the result of the return after the delay.

To better explain the terms used in experiments I refer to the attached mark-up of one of your pictures....

E1 does most of the damage to SS devices. It is normally not visible. I know it takes a 1gHz scope to show much of it, even when the firing sequence is as low as a 3 mHz PRF. E1 doesn't give enough time for protection circuits, even super fast fuses, to function.
E2 can cause mechanical movement or destruction in windings and cores. E3 causes metals to hold a static charge and can continue for long periods of time, even while loaded electrically.

Notice the similarity? Now you see why I like to follow your tests  :o

Place a brass or copper rod in your coils in the same fashion as a coil core. Measure voltage from one end of that core to the other - after you connect a load to it. The voltage builds up slowly only when a load is applied. Make that core a ring. The ring should become hot.

This all sounds like we should throw transformer theory out the window but it all fits current theory.

The only advice I can offer to protect your FETs is to place a very tight spark gap across the source and drain. The spark gap should be a flat, broad surface on the source side. It should be a very sharp point on the drain side. ( EDIT>> Sorry, reverse that idea. You are using N-channel FETs).

If your damage is caused by an E1, the spark gap won't help much either.
   
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WW,
If its possible to calculate the E1s period from the pulse width/coil  then a UHF tank may eliminate it but at what expense on the pulse itself?
Thoughts?
   
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The E1, if it is an E1, is not TEMW. I don't normally say that. I usually just say they probably can't see it on a scope.
   

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What if you crank the current way down? (the "effect is supposed to be voltage induced so minimal current is required)

What if you add a choke (ballast) after the FET?
   
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Facinating  Wavewatcher,

Im not sure that shunting the tiny little spikes would be useful

   
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I'll agree with G. IMO, current and magnetic field change isn't the culprit. You can certainly create a reasonable EMP with a few micro-amps if the voltage is high enough and pulse width in the tens of ns.

If the culprit is an E1 then XL won't matter. An E1 is almost all charge. In that time-frame there is no XL, yet.

Is the targeted result avalanche of the FET or the anomalous patterns emanating from the coil?
 
Is the FET using silicon based junctions? Silicon junctions can change from a charge carrier to a charge hold and release. Avalanche and Snapback are two different things.

I think what is going on must be determined before working on a solution. If the damaging energy is an E1, primary result pulse of an EMP, then there isn't much to do except socket the devices. There are other things to try but not knowing them is probably why we aren't all carrying holstered EMP weapons  :-X

You may want to determine if the invisible reverse pulse is a result of a silicon junction. Tie the gate to S or D (depending upon the device type) and feed it like a detector diode. If you get powerful but incredibly short reverse conduction then the activity seen is probably more to do with release of stored charge than avalanche.(not talking about capacitive discharge - this silicon problem can create double digit ps spikes)

If the problem is EMP related then reducing voltage will make it harder to create the noisy coil. Decreasing pulse rate or increasing pulse width is also counterproductive. Not needing a delayed secondary pulse at higher frequencies is probably because the pulses are so close together each following pulse is delayed in reference to the leading pulse.

The primary of a true EMP is a sudden burst of charge not a sudden change in a magnetic field. The magnetic change part is secondary and tertiary.  

A diode in series? Maybe, if the anode is tied to the FET source and cathode to V-. you may want to try something besides silicon  :) If an E1 is the problem then that diode will produce an even charge across the FET and the new diode should fail instead of the FET.

Yes, the freewheel diode shunted in the FET is a waste of time for incredibly short pulses. Why? Diodes aren't on by default (forward current). They turn on when a current is applied. If you want a diode to always be on then maybe a zero-bias type is a better idea. Anything less may not conduct until after the spike is done. Another reason why the FET and diode with running current flow are the only ones to fry? They are already on. The collision happens inside them instead of the coil when timing is just right/wrong  ;D

Ok. The beers are starting to take hold. I'll stop pummeling y'all with my hot wind.



 
   

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with my own explosions at my HV transformer terminals, I had a bridge of four nte517 diodes that seem unaffected.

is it possible that the FET is acting as a antinode of reflected energy?  (like the open end of a transmission line)

Would adding a bleed resitor across the FET reduce or eliminate this antinode?

Wouldn't this also provide a little bias to the coil?
   
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Peter,

I have what might be a couple silly questions. Would the explosions be occurring at the nodes or the peaks? Does the wire looked melted? Or does it look like someone stretched it and pulled it apart? Like a mechanical stress verses a heat stress.

Ken
   

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Hi Ken
There does not seem to be any real heat i can detect, it's just a noise, no sign of deformation or stretching as such infact i cannot see any movement of the wire.

I am currently not sure why it occurs or what it's effect is, i am hoping to answer some of these questions as experiments unfold.
My first task is to try and understand what conditions are needed to cause them to appear, once i am able to produce them for longer periods without blowing my equipment up i may be in a position to try detecting what ever it is.
I am clinging to the notion that there maybe free energy available  ::)
   
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Peterae,
A good notion to have but don't let the details get lost.

I'm convinced if there is extra energy it is in the DC component that follows the result pulse. I'm also convinced that the HV arcs demonstrated in the TPU were the audible 5k or 6k PRF and reverse polarity of the suposed usable DC output.
 
   

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Peter, are your heatsinks for the FET's grounded?

hard to read your blurry schematic, is the coil across the FET?   If it is, try in series with FET.



   

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Hi Grumpy
Here's a block schematic
There are fet drivers driving the fet's as well

Edit Heatsinks are not connected to anything but the Drain does push up against them un insulated

In the first controller i used sometime ago when i first discovered the explosions i didnt have heat sinks
   

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Hi Grumpy
Here's a block schematic
There are fet drivers driving the fet's as well

Edit Heatsinks are not connected to anything but the Drain does push up against them un insulated

In the first controller i used sometime ago when i first discovered the explosions i didnt have heat sinks

I am wondering about the parasitic capacitance of the heatsink...

the first controller didn't smoke all of the FET's...

Are the connections between the FET's and the bifilar coils the same length physically?

   
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