Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims

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Author Topic: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims (Read 12916 times)

PhysicsProf	Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « on: 2014-03-29, 21:23:57 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	Various HHO claims have come to the fore again. Here are five general categories; if you know of more, pls let us know: 1- copious HHO production compared to input power (excess evidently) 2- RF "noise" or output associated with HHO cells 3- plasma formation in the water cell along with xs heat (woopy, Biberian, etc) 4- Rossi, and Defkalion approaches using nickel... 5- HHO onto catalytic converter (xs heat?) Fascinating! I wonder which approach might emerge as a front-runner to benefit mankind soonest? Note that NONE of these categories involves only D2O - so not "cold fusion" IMO as claimed years ago by Pons and Fleischmann, and really in a different realm from their claims involving D2O and d-d fusion. There may be transmutation or some other form of LENR, or some new mechanism; but no one AFAIK is claiming actual p-p or d-d fusion in these cells (as P&F did for d-d fusion). In category 1, H-Cat, there are two active experiments being reported on as they proceed, which I'm following: Quote 1. Alan Smith, H-Cat calorimetry set-up progress. https://www.facebook.com/leapforwardlaboratory/posts/528759560578329?notif_t=like HHO TESTING CALORIMETER - TRIAL ASSEMBLY OF THE TANK This is the first 'dry run' assembly of the water-bath calorimeter I am building - a build sponsored by the members of the E-Cat World forum. The idea is to test the oft-made but essentially unproven claim that catalytic re-combination of HHO (mixed gas) made by the electrolysis of water yields more energy than simply burning as a 'naked flame'. Ahead of schedule at the moment- this build was not supposed to even begin till April. Plenty of midnight oil applied! The structure is all 12mm Lexan Polycarbonate for strength. Deliberately non-magnetic - but that is with a future experiment in mind.There are 3 thermometers (2 digital and one precision mercury for cross-checking and old-times sake) and a great deal of plumbing to be installed yet, as well as a brass support platform for the catalyst sample, igniter and HHO jets etc. Flashback protection and blow-out valve are also on the list. All this will be hidden by a Urethane foam insulating jacket when the experiments begin. The glass bottle inside is the combustion space, and will be open at the bottom to the water that fills the tank. The gas pipes etc will go 'under and up' into the airpocket inside the tank. Next step is to build the electrolysis cell. Wish me luck! 2. Experiments by Sterling Allan and Frank Crowther et al. Quote Sterling's first H-Cat calorimetric test points to anomalous heat A report of Sterling Allan's test of the H-Cat (HHO through catalytic converter) in water bath at Frank Crowther's house, March 25-27, 2014; achieving around 93% input/output efficiency. Conventional electrolysis and fuel cell theoretical limits combined give a 80% efficiency maximum, pointing to an anomalous effect. (Report Being Composed) Expected completion: March 31 March 31 is Monday... I emailed Sterling and advised him that a common error with simple bath calorimetry (as he is doing) is failure to STIR the water before taking the temperature... He may just be sampling a localized "hot spot" as commonly happens. I have urged him to stir thoroughly! There are other pitfalls; that's the one that comes to mind from his brief description at PESN. If you know of other current HHO experiments, please let us know.

Paul-R	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #1 on: 2014-03-30, 22:04:43 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014-03-29, 21:23:57 Various HHO claims have come to the fore again. Here are five general categories; if you know of more, pls let us know: I think the Bob Boyce 101 plate electrolyser should be specifically mentioned, particularly since it can actually be bought, albeit rather expensively. It is interesting that he uses the very same 42khz frequency of John Worrell Keely (along with one octave down, and a further octave down). .

Matt Watts	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #2 on: 2014-03-30, 22:56:49 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Paul-R on 2014-03-30, 22:04:43 I think the Bob Boyce 101 plate electrolyser should be specifically mentioned, particularly since it can actually be bought, albeit rather expensively. It is interesting that he uses the very same 42khz frequency of John Worrell Keely (along with one octave down, and a further octave down). I've been following and helping this guy with his version of the Boyce unit: http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=1257.0 I think it has potential and I know Moray King was rather interested in it.

Farrah Day	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #3 on: 2014-03-31, 09:00:23 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Paul-R on 2014-03-30, 22:04:43 I think the Bob Boyce 101 plate electrolyser should be specifically mentioned, particularly since it can actually be bought, albeit rather expensively. It is interesting that he uses the very same 42khz frequency of John Worrell Keely (along with one octave down, and a further octave down). . Boyce has seemingly been around forever. The problem is, in all this time we still only have his word for it regarding his claims that he was achieving... what was it, 500 - 800% over-Faraday! To my knowledge no one has ever replicated Boyce's electrolyser set up and seen any over-Faraday results. Certainly Boyce has never provided any supporting evidence, nor were his claims ever independently verified. So in truth, it's just hearsay. Though of course we always get folk that will buy into every word of such claims without a second thought and in doing so not only fuel the fire, but also levitate such individuals to Guru status. All I'm saying is that just because someone has been around for a long time does not automatically give them credibility. H2Opower (Ed Mitchell) has also been knocking around for a good few years, making continuous claims that he has cracked Meyers secret, whilst in fact just continually talking utter garbage and actually failing miserably to achieve anything. So the reality is that nothing can be taken on face value. I've known Boyce for many years and, putting it kindly, he is a rather odd individual. Take a look at: http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=75.0 Heatlocke over on RWG research is attempting a true replication of Boyce's set up. And while he's not having any luck so far, he's making a legitimate attempt. He's also a very credible guy. Ideally he should be invited over here. As Matt has already pointed out, his thread can be found here: http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=1257.0

Peterae	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #4 on: 2014-03-31, 16:01:22 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Quote nor were his claims ever independently verified. Build it, that's the best way to learn whats going on, because right now your above comment means nothing, and is based no no fact's that i can see, unless you would care to show you results to prove otherwise. You remind me of the people that said the earth was flat and that it was impossible to build a plane to fly, fact is we would still be in the stone age if it was left up to you.

Paul-R	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #5 on: 2014-03-31, 16:12:19 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: Peterae on 2014-03-31, 16:01:22 Build it, that's the best way to learn whats going on, because right now your above comment means nothing, and is based no no fact's that i can see, unless you would care to show you results to prove otherwise. I totally agree, Peterae. In fact, the drongo can buy one since I doubt that he has the skill to put new batteries in a torch..

Farrah Day	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #6 on: 2014-03-31, 17:49:48 »
Group: Guest	What FACTS exactly are Boyce's claims based on? Quote from: Paul-R on 2014-03-31, 16:12:19 I totally agree, Peterae. In fact, the drongo can buy one since I doubt that he has the skill to put new batteries in a torch.. Blimey that's rich coming from a halfwit! So you simply believe what you've heard or read? No questions asked, Bob said this so it must be true! You need to grow up... how old are you... about ten? You simply believe that he did what he claimed, even though it has never been in anyway ever substantiated... nor replicated? Have you ever done any research whatsoever in this field? ...obviously not or else you wouldn't be so totally clueless! Do you know anything about the man you are promoting? ...no, of course you don't, you are simply regurgitating the claptrap that has been doing the rounds forever and a day. If you are going to post something at least do your homework first, because otherwise you are just adding fuel to the fire, perpetuating the misinformation and myths that have been bouncing around cyberspace for years. I used to think this was the one forum where common sense and reason ruled... obviously things have changed. The floodgates appear to have been opened to the idiot faction. The mindless, utter stupidity of people like you two guys never ceases to amaze me. I'm out of this nuthouse. Delete my account - I'm totally through with you clowns and this circus.

Paul-R	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #7 on: 2014-03-31, 23:31:12 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: Farrah Day on 2014-03-31, 17:49:48 Do you know anything about the man you are promoting? ... . Yes. His peoiple were so impressed by a FAQ file that I drew up for a discussion group that I was offered a unit, fully assembled and tested, for installation in my car so that I could road test it and report back to them with data. The tragedy is that John, who was arranging this, assumed that I lived in the States, and they weren't happy about such delicate gear being shipped across the Atlantic, and the costs thereof, and the possible issues of installing and testing without someone near to hand. Bob Boyce is so far ahead in his field that there are no other players in his league. It is a serious problem that the equipment is fragile, expensive and easy to replicate inaccurately. Don't assume, Farrah Day. You do not know. .

Mookie	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #8 on: 2014-04-01, 01:45:06 »
Group: Guest	Farrah Day has been at this for a lot longer than you may know, and I am the last to defend her. As incapable as she was in carrying on a prolonged discussion/discourse, and despite her combative nature, I always shared her view of the Bob Boyces', Stan Meyers', Herman Andersons' and Fast Freddies' of this world as all being slick, fast-talking pitchmen, who never even once demonstrated any real evidence of their fantasy claims. Has anyone ever wondered why not one of these 'gods' ever produced even a 3 minute video of a vehicle running on water? Bogus claims ...every one of them. From that standpoint she was 100% right in her stance, as was her intolerance for fools. We always agreed to disagree, but we were never able to carry on a civilized conversation of any length.

muDped	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #9 on: 2014-04-01, 03:06:24 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	Quote from: Paul-R ...they weren't happy about such delicate gear being shipped across the Atlantic, and the costs thereof, and the possible issues of installing and testing without someone near to hand. Unfortunately, the Boyce design is quite fragile. The principal advantage of the series cell construct is that the plates, due to their orientation to the direction of current flow, present little resistance and consequently little loss resulting from IIR. It is possible, however, to build a low voltage cell comprised of many plates which exhibits similar efficiency and low electrical losses, or a series connection of such cells which are not nearly as fragile as Boyce's design. The largest possible plate cross sectional area coupled with a current density of not more than 100 milliAmperes per square inch of plate surface will pay huge dividends. With respect to Farrah Day; her style of communication bothers me not in the least. She speaks directly and more often than not (much more in fact) she's absolutely correct in what she believes. We've had a number of exchanges over the years, always civil. If she does walk away from us here she'll be missed. --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

PhysicsProf	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #10 on: 2014-04-01, 04:54:22 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	First of all, Farrah Day is a male (not a "she"). Then Dumped, you say Farrah is "always civil"? Please consider his post above: Quote Blimey that's rich coming from a halfwit! So you simply believe what you've heard or read? No questions asked, Bob said this so it must be true! You need to grow up... how old are you... about ten? You simply believe that he did what he claimed, even though it has never been in anyway ever substantiated... nor replicated? Have you ever done any research whatsoever in this field? ...obviously not or else you wouldn't be so totally clueless! ...The floodgates appear to have been opened to the idiot faction. The mindless, utter stupidity of people like you two guys never ceases to amaze me. I'm out of this nuthouse. " The language is hardly "civil" IMO. I did not start this thread with the view of inviting ad hominem attacks ("to the man") like "idiot", "utter stupidity" "clowns" "halfwit". These are personalized, ad hominem attacks unworthy of scientific discussion. Farrah concludes with this: Quote "Delete my account - I'm totally through with you clowns and this circus." Adieu, then, Farrah Day and your ad hominem attacks -- which detract from the discussion and are not welcome.

muDped	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #11 on: 2014-04-01, 07:04:02 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	Quote from: PhysicsProf These are personalized, ad hominem attacks unworthy of scientific discussion. Agreed. Ideally, this sort of expression should have no place in a scientific discussion. Sadly, and historically, that has not been the case. It seems that many brilliant scientists are afflicted with intense, almost juvenile, emotions which have resulted in numerous colorful disputes in person and via correspondence. Most politicians demonstrate similar tendencies so perhaps it is evidence of enlarged ego at work. Farrah Day may in fact be a male; I've never bothered to look into that possibility. I've followed him/her for approaching a decade now and have enjoyed discussion and exchanges with him/her several times over those years. Each of those exchanges has been polite and civil and well focused on the technical question at hand. During the course of my Naval career I had occasion to interact with Limeys, Kiwis, and Ozzies at numerous ports/stations in the Western Pacific and have found them to be very similar in their speech and behavior to Farrah Day. I've grown accustomed to the way they communicate and carry on. Their style is different but rarely, in spite of how it sounds, hostile. --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

Chet K	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #12 on: 2014-04-01, 11:23:55 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	The world of alternative energy ,as it applies to these forums,is quite frustrating. and some take it more personally than others. I ALWAYS try to behave like I am sitting across the table from someone ,Some one I either know or have met for the first time Having a double standard does not work for me.Nor does insult and condescension. Physics Prof has made a few categories for discussion ,In the case of Paul R 's reference to Bob Boyce I would say this should be investigated a bit further as in that case it seems a product is already to market? Honestly I have no idea?? On another note One of the things which we are trying to do here is investigate claims and gather information about those claims . this can be very time consuming and takes much planning and effort. In the Case of Solar Hydrogen Technologies thread [COP 400 claim],this was the first Time such an investigation was put on a Public view real time thread,[Ongoing investigation....] Farrah felt the need to Play The USUAL role and there is no way we can invite Known persons to a public venue where an anonymous individual is behaving with infantile levels of self control mixed in with an occasional relevant statement. Yes Its a bit Nutty perhaps to try and involve persons who cannot control themselves in a civil way to such a discusion. But I do like Farrah ........its just that some here have decided to be quite serious and actually do much more than make comments ,they have dedicated huge parts of their lives towards getting results and offering help ,the kind of help you just can't buy. the resources available to this community are staggering. we need more of that and less of the other. and I know this is the vision Of the man who started this forum I completely support and respect this vision ,Men like Peter are very hard to find and they inspire others of like mind. for Clarity , Yes it is all about being a skeptic but being So in a civil way and in a venue where you can actaully Vet a claim to the level of Peer review. Thx Chet ps I tried to explain this to Farrah several times in the last few days [Privately] PPS Regarding the topic here... we will be Testing HHO claims ...not just talking « Last Edit: 2014-04-01, 11:52:26 by Chet K »

Paul-R	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #13 on: 2014-04-01, 17:08:00 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	I've lost contact with their Yahoo group because I HATE the new software and it seems not even to work properly. But the situation used to be that you get the case from Ed Holdgate, the PCB and plates from "hydrogengarage". And put them together yourself. Dumped's post makes me think that the product would be better seen as a stationary unit, not to be installed in a car at all because of speed humps and so on. I wonder if anyone has directly suggested this.

Chet K	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #14 on: 2014-04-01, 18:18:11 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	Paul R It turns out we have some new members that are a bit more involved with Mr.Boyce's work. I suppose we will be looking into that further,I am not sure if there is a specific Topic here ? If not, One will be started and some active investigation will follow. Any contributions will be greatly appreciated and all we do here is for open source not business,Of course if someone has a tech which people can buy to benefit them or others ? so be it. Respectfully Chet

Paul-R	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #15 on: 2014-04-01, 22:58:04 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: Chet K on 2014-04-01, 18:18:11 I suppose we will be looking into that further,I am not sure if there is a specific Topic here ? Absolutely, Yes. In fact, we should try and get the Boyce people to migrate from Yahoo's abominable software and join OUR. i think the group has almost collapsed, as have most of the other energy groups. They can bring my FAQ file with them. Dumped's suggestions of an easier method is very interesting. The problem with bob's device is the staggering accuracy needed in the arranging of the plates.

muDped	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #16 on: 2014-04-02, 01:30:03 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	There are commercial electrolyzers which bear a similarity to Boyce's design although they are much, much larger. Also the spacing between the plates is much greater to permit more effective monitoring of electrolyte levels within the individual cells and to facilitate separation of the gases Hydrogen and Oxygen as they evolve and are collected. Or Hydrogen and Chlorine where saline solutions are electrolyzed. For production of large volumes of gases the small units are far too inefficient and prone to failure. They tend to be driven at very high electric current levels which hastens plate erosion and produces excessive heat. --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

Paul-R	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #17 on: 2014-04-02, 16:55:05 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: Dumped on 2014-04-02, 01:30:03 Also the spacing between the plates is much greater This would mean that they are not Boyce type units. As I recall, the plates must be very close together in separate cells because a sinusoidal wave system is created across the unit, and the plates are positioned at the y=0 point of the sine wave. Not very well explained, I'm afraid. The gases are produced together BETWEEN the plates. It is a water fracturing (or cracking) process rather than an electrolysis process. It is the voltage which does the work rather than any current. The three frequencies used are 42.8khz, one octave down and another octave down. Bob speaks very severely to people who talk of storing the gas. It is explosive and could be set off if a cylinder of the stuff is struck sharply with an adjustable spanner. But I am wondering if it could be diluted, possibly with air or town gas and then be stored for use in cars.

Centraflow	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #18 on: 2014-04-02, 19:40:16 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2982	A plate cell like the Boyce cell is capacitive (capacitors in series). I know there are some who will say that this is not a capacitor, but it is even if it has electrolyte in the water and conducts. If these cells are pulsed and a diode is used to hold in the charge between pulses, then the cell will charge up until it can't hold anymore charge, then the water breaks down. The closer the plates (less dielectric thickness) the higher the value of the capacitor "also reducing the electrolyte strength". The thing is huge amps are created from high voltage breakdown, more current the greater the water splitting. Mixing frequencies also causes instability in the hydrogen oxygen bond angle, this can also be done other ways, such as a high alternating magnetic field such as induction from a coil carrying high amperage, either around the water cell or with a pancake coil underneath. This is normally done in distilled water "high dielectric strength", this causes the water clusters "normally quite large and irregular", to become smaller and aline like a series of capacitors, and in doing so will take a very high voltage before breaking down (higher voltage turns to higher amperage). Taking the above into consideration, what is needed is a high magnetic field and a nano secound pulse from flyback or better still something like a DSRD (20-80nsec) charging the water cluster caps to breakdown. There is one other thing and that is a high magnetic field induced into water changes the surface tension (it increases) also the ph goes up, all a result of the cluster change. This is not electrolysis as in Faraday, and can be very efficient. Using such short pulses "nano" normally will not work without the high induced magnetic field, also this can be frequency sensitive, but not held to a specific frequency unlike frequency mixing. Think about what I have said, the results are quite staggering, and moves into the realms of Boyce and Meyer and others without knowing all the possibilities. This is not OU, 100% yes and so a good solar/wind storage system which could become free energy in the end See this pdf, it is where I am going regards Mike ------------------------ methanisation.pdf (11194.45 kB - downloaded 645 times.) --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

muDped	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #19 on: 2014-04-02, 20:58:04 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	Very interesting presentation. The electrolyzer units are shown on page 9. If possible Mike, could you obtain detailed info on the construction and operation of those units? They are quite small for their listed power consumptions so may be using exotic plate materials. It is also probable that membranes are used to keep the gases (Hydrogen and Oxygen) separated as they're pressurized. Impressive. --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

Centraflow	Re: Actual test devices, experimentally testing HHO claims « Reply #20 on: 2014-04-03, 12:41:19 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2982	Hi Dumped Yes it is impressive and is happening now, albeit very small scale apart from the Audi plant. The electrolysers are dry units here as you can see from the photos. I do not know the complete details of these, but I am sure they are using an incell separation of the gases. My idea is to use what I know to create large volumes of gas and absorb "loose term" the oxygen by reaction with a metal to make oxides and generate power for part of the system. The thing is if it is made 100% efficient, and no reason why not, then the methane storage is a direct power convertion from the electric used from solar or wind, therefore (direct building costs apart) the methane is for free. Even if you used grid power at off peak rates, the gas would be cheaper than oil or gas from the main (50% to be exact) 1:2 power convertion. These units for 10-15kw are not big, they would fit in your back yard and supply all home and motoring needs. By removing the oxygen in the reactor itself, the system becomes quite safe. A dual vacuum pressure pump is placed between the two reactors, the hydrogen reactor needs vacuum and the sabatier reactor needs pressure and the output is compressed into cylinders for storage, the system can be totally automatic connecting to your water supply and electric supply of some sort. regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

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