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OverUnity Research > Benches > Grumage (Moderator: Grumage) > Akula0083 30 watt self running generator.
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Author Topic: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator.  (Read 975118 times)
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img  verpies
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #725 on: 2014-04-17, 17:11:43 »

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Quote from: wattsup on 2014-04-17, 15:00:49
Just got two circuit boards, GL2014 and Shark-01. Thanks for the sends.
...
That R3 really bugs me. Seems to me it should be a diode pointing to source instead. That would change everything.
Do you mean R3 on the PC boards that you just received or on the Akula's diagram1 or diagram2 or diagram3.

Why would a diode change everything ?
   
img  TutorialFE
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #726 on: 2014-04-17, 17:13:38 »
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Hy GL!!

I would let you know that I ordered all the parts for the device.
 
 I would ask if you have any information regarding how the winding needs to
 be done on this little trasformator. (just to begin....)
 
Which type of copper wire(solid wire ?) to be use and what about the thickness
 
and how many turns and in which direction?

 :-\
   
img  Groundloop
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #727 on: 2014-04-17, 17:41:07 »
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Quote from: TutorialFE on 2014-04-17, 17:13:38
Hy GL!!

I would let you know that I ordered all the parts for the device.
 
 I would ask if you have any information regarding how the winding needs to
 be done on this little trasformator. (just to begin....)
 
Which type of copper wire(solid wire ?) to be use and what about the thickness
 
and how many turns and in which direction?

 :-\

TutorialFE,

I recommend that you do not solder the transformer to the PCB. Use wires from the PCB to the transformer legs.
That way you can experiment with different turns and wires etc. Also, look at the original Akyla drawing for
information on turns etc. I did use 0,5mm enameled copper wire on my transformer, but feel free to experiment.

GL.
   
img  wattsup
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #728 on: 2014-04-17, 17:53:26 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2014-04-17, 17:11:43
Do you mean R3 on the PC boards that you just received or on the Akula's diagram1 or diagram2 or diagram3.

Why would a diode change everything ?

R3 in diagram 1 or 2 between the DC feed and the SB1 on top of L2. Having a diode there pointing to the feed side would permit L2 to return to the source without resistance and permit that L2 to resonate either alone or with the primary and also would permit Grumage to pulse his primary without his secondary half wind located under his primary to seize the core.

wattsup


---------------------------
http://etherimpress.com
   
img  lost_bro
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #729 on: 2014-04-17, 18:01:39 »
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Quote from: wattsup on 2014-04-17, 17:53:26
R3 in diagram 1 or 2 between the DC feed and the SB1 on top of L2.
wattsup

hello Wattsup

OK, now that you mention R3....  on a simulation that was posted many days or weeks ago??? I did change the value of R3 (@47R) and it did modify the function of the circuit.  It would allow the LED array to be lit while at the same time allowing *some* energy back to the source at C11..........

Did not try a diode though,  interesting (voltage drop & rectification).....

take care, peace
lost_bro
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #730 on: 2014-04-17, 18:14:16 »
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I think the 'duty' pot's main function appears to be to disable the PWM at a set rail voltage, probably to protect the LED load from damage due to over-current. It switched the PWM output and load LED's 'OFF' cleanly at a set supply voltage from around 8V to over 13V.

Hoppy
   
img  TutorialFE
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #731 on: 2014-04-17, 19:02:02 »
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Ok I've check  I've got 0.5 mm solid copper wire..

Do you have also instruction about the setting with the trimmer?
   
img  Grumage
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #732 on: 2014-04-17, 19:54:10 »

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Buy me a cigar
Dear All.

Short video of the problem of Pin 3 Cut off !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfQlOhOocso

Remedies welcome !!  :)

Cheers Grum.


---------------------------
Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
img  Itsu
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #733 on: 2014-04-17, 19:54:53 »

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Quote from: lost_bro on 2014-04-17, 15:36:33
Hello Verpies,

If I told you I knew for sure what the artifact was, I would be telling you a lie....  >:-)

But, I'll throw in my 2 cents worth anyway....

Ok,  After the initial *discharge spike* of the L1, we see a gradual linear discharging of C11 thru  L1 From 20 > 16vdc (possible feeding the L2 and/or LED array?).....  then about 20us into the affair we see a very fast discharge, abruptly pulling the signal towards Zero potential which just as fast reaches an equilibrium @ what appears to be Vcc potential (from the scope shot appears about 12 - 13vdc).

Question:  What is the operational Vcc of this Circuit when the scope shot was taken?

Question:  What is the Voltage Value of C11 in this circuit when the scope shot was taken?

Question:  What is happening simultaneously @ LED array at this moment?

Question:  What are the inductances of L1 & L2?

Question:  What about the copper tape to ground shown in the Akula diagram,  Is it being used here?


I played around with LTspice last night just to see if I could duplicate this effect, and with standard models I could *not* duplicate it.   I did notice some interesting signal results when the system was about to enter resonance. RLC....  R1; C11; L1;....

take care, peace
lost_bro






Question:  What is the operational Vcc of this Circuit when the scope shot was taken?
               14V

Question:  What is the Voltage Value of C11 in this circuit when the scope shot was taken?
                10V + a 2V ripple, see purple trace on the below scopeshot

Question:  What is happening simultaneously @ LED array at this moment?
                its fully lit, at 14V + spikes, see blue trace on the below scopeshot

Question:  What are the inductances of L1 & L2?
                L1 500uH
                L2 7mH
 
Question:  What about the copper tape to ground shown in the Akula diagram,  Is it being used here?
                Yes  see   http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2358.msg36930#msg36930

The yellow trace again is the gate voltage,  the green trace the drain current (as always need to be taken x2)

Regards Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #734 on: 2014-04-17, 20:43:37 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2014-04-17, 01:40:34
Pin3 voltage ref GND - Hmm, are those ±2V spikes an EMI artifact, Dirty ground (e.g. ground loop) or real steering pulses ?   What is going on at pin 2 ?


Here a screenshot of pin 3 (purple trace) and pin 2 (blue trace) together again with the gate voltage (yellow trace) and the L2 current (green trace)


I lost my low current setting in high frequency mode after starting to use the ucc27511 driver.
High frequency (max. 116KHz) still pulls 4.5A @ 14V, and R3 and R1 are getting hot fast.

2e screenshot is with same settings as first one, except the green (current) trace now is from L1.


Regards Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #735 on: 2014-04-17, 20:46:12 »

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Quote from: Grumage on 2014-04-17, 19:54:10
Dear All.

Short video of the problem of Pin 3 Cut off !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfQlOhOocso

Remedies welcome !!  :)

Cheers Grum.

Hi Grum,

to me it looks like the same problem that Hoppy is reporting when he says that turning the duty cycle pot can cleanly cut off the leds and PWM (TL494).

Regards Itsu
   
img  verpies
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #736 on: 2014-04-17, 20:53:52 »

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Quote from: Hoppy on 2014-04-17, 18:14:16
I think the 'duty' pot's main function appears to be to disable the PWM at a set rail voltage, probably to protect the LED load from damage due to over-current.
Absolutely not !
The DTY pot adjusts the negative slope sensitivity that occurs at the junction of R7 & R6 (R5 & R7 on Akula's diagram )
See this video.
   
img  verpies
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #737 on: 2014-04-17, 21:04:09 »

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Quote from: Grumage on 2014-04-17, 19:54:10
Short video of the problem of Pin 3 Cut off !!
Temporarily remove one side of R6 on Groundloop's PCB.  (R7 on Akula's diagrams).
This will disable the feedback loop and pin 3 of TL494 will stay low.

Please make a short video about what happens as the power supply voltage is increased slowly above the critical voltage while the Ch2 is connected to the junction of R6 and R7.
« Last Edit: 2014-04-17, 22:29:21 by verpies »
   
img  verpies
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #738 on: 2014-04-17, 21:22:32 »

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I cleaned up a little Akula's diagram v2 appearing in this video.


I did not change this circuit electronically in any way.  I only added missing component designations and cleaned it up a little graphically.


@Groundloop
Why on Groundloop's PCB, C4 is connected to pin 15 but on Akula's diagram the same capacitor (C8) is connected to pin 13 & 14 ?
Akula's diagram1 also shows this discrepancy.
« Last Edit: 2014-04-18, 01:04:23 by verpies »
   
img  verpies
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #739 on: 2014-04-17, 22:21:01 »

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Quote from: lost_bro on 2014-04-17, 15:36:33
Ok,  After the initial *discharge spike* of the L1, we see a gradual linear discharging vof C11 thru  L1
With MOSFET removed, that can happen only if voltage on C11 is greater than voltage on C3

NOTE:  The replies below use the component designations from Akula's chematic diagram v2.1:

If the MOSFET is in place and switching rapidly, then the junction of L1 & D5 will have a high voltage in reference to ground after the MOSFET opens (in order to keep L1 current continuous).
When this voltage becomes higher than the voltage across C3, then D5 will conduct current and charge up C3 (potentially to to a very high voltage which is clamped down only by the LED bank and D6+L2+R3).

Quote from: lost_bro on 2014-04-17, 15:36:33
From 20 > 16vdc (possible feeding the L2 and/or LED array?)
D6 will conduct and allow current through L2 only if the voltage across C3 + the EMF generated by L2 is greater than the voltage on C11.
Any current flowing through D6 will charge up C11.
BTW: Current flowing through the scrubber composed of R2 and C4 is minimal or momentary.

The above is the MAJOR POWER LOOP of the entire circuit.

Quote from: lost_bro on 2014-04-17, 15:36:33
.....  then about 20us into the affair we see a very fast discharge, abruptly pulling the signal towards Zero potential which just as fast reaches an equilibrium @ what appears to be Vcc potential (from the scope shot appears about 12 - 13vdc).
Can you rephrase that?  20μs after the gate edge or sth else ?

Quote from: lost_bro on 2014-04-17, 15:36:33
Question:  What is happening simultaneously @ LED array at this moment?
The LED array always attempts to discharge C3 above its combined voltage drop (e.g. 15V).  In effect the LED array attempts to clamp C3 to a voltage <= 15V.
A resistive load would discharge C3 from the beginning (from 0V), and the circuit would behave very differently with such load.

Quote from: lost_bro on 2014-04-17, 15:36:33
Question:  What are the inductances of L1 & L2?
Mutual coupling coefficient is also unknown between L1 and L2.

Quote from: lost_bro on 2014-04-17, 15:36:33
Question:  What about the copper tape to ground shown in the Akula diagram,  Is it being used here?
I do not know but it is alleged that the copper tape is essential for the OU effect.
In a different, albeit related, 3V perpetual flashlight, the copper tape is allegedly placed like this around the inner winding (secondary):
« Last Edit: 2014-04-17, 23:17:17 by verpies »
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #740 on: 2014-04-17, 22:37:17 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2014-04-17, 20:53:52
Absolutely not !
The DTY pot adjusts the negative slope sensitivity that occurs at the junction of R7 & R6 (R5 & R7 on Akula's diagram )
See this video.

It most definitely does cease PWM output with my replication!
   
img  verpies
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #741 on: 2014-04-17, 22:44:54 »

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Quote from: Hoppy on 2014-04-17, 18:14:16
I think the 'duty' pot's main function appears to be to disable the PWM at a set rail voltage,
Quote from: Hoppy on 2014-04-17, 22:37:17
It most definitely does cease PWM output with my replication!
I believe you,  but it is a secondary side effect, not a primary effect of the "rail voltage".
The R5 & C5 LC current has more direct causal connection to the feedback loop and pin 3 behavior, than the "rail voltage"
   
img  Groundloop
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #742 on: 2014-04-17, 22:50:48 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2014-04-17, 21:22:32
I cleaned up a little Akula's diagram v2 appearing in this video.


I did not change this circuit electronically in any way.  I only added missing component designations and cleaned it up a little graphically.


@Groundloop
Why on Groundloop's PCB, C4 is connected to pin 15 but on Akula's diagram the same capacitor (C8) is connected to pin 13 & 14 ?
Akula's diagram1 also shows this discrepancy.

@All,

Seems that I messed up the C4 connection!

I apologize for the error. It can be fixed by lifting
the plus wire on C4 out of the PCB, and then
solder a wire from the plus on C4 to pin 14.

Again, I apologize for my mistake!

GL.
   
img  verpies
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #743 on: 2014-04-17, 22:51:29 »

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Quote from: Groundloop on 2014-04-17, 22:50:48
Seems that I messed up the C4 connection!
Just help everyone to fix it and add this correction to v2 of your PCB.
Some people might even miss this post and be unaware of it.

Rising edges from the "feedback takeoff point" appearing on pin 4 through C4 (C8 on Akula's diagram) can inhibit the TL494's outputs through the Dead Time Control circuitry.
This is most likely what Grumage and Hoppy are struggling with.
« Last Edit: 2014-04-17, 23:27:53 by verpies »
   
img  verpies
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #744 on: 2014-04-17, 22:54:36 »

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Quote from: wattsup on 2014-04-17, 17:53:26
R3 in diagram1 or diagram2 between the DC feed and the SB1 on top of L2.
Having a diode there pointing to the feed side would permit L2 to return to the source
There is already a diode in series with the L2.  On diagram v2.1 this diode is designated D6.
Another diode in series would not make much sense.  R3 is there for a purpose, as a CSR or current sharing resistor or a limiter.

Quote from: wattsup on 2014-04-17, 17:53:26
without resistance and permit that L2 to resonate either alone or with the primary
Do you mean an LC resonance involving L2 or an acoustic resonance in the core ?
If you mean LC resonance then adding another diode in series with L1 & D6 would not change anything.
   
img  Groundloop
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #745 on: 2014-04-17, 23:40:07 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2014-04-17, 22:51:29
Just help everyone to fix it and add this correction to v2 of your PCB.
Some people might even miss this post and be unaware of it.

Rising edges from the "feedback takeoff point" appearing on pin 4 through C4 (C8 on Akula's diagram) can inhibit the TL494's outputs through the Dead Time Control circuitry.
This is most likely what Grumage and Hoppy are struggling with.

Verpies,

I have updated the design and corrected the error. I have posted the new design
to my work bench. I also posted how to fix the C4 error.

GL.
   
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Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #746 on: 2014-04-17, 23:47:32 »

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tExB=qr
Copper foils in that orientation will create a radial electric field perpendicular to the coil windings.  

This is a biasing technique mention in TPU-related theory where two perpendicular fields are used to induce a current.  One of the forces has to rotate (i.e. change position) and the other force is static. Magnetic fields can also be used.  This is why I asked if there was any indication that that core is magnetized.
   
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Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #747 on: 2014-04-17, 23:48:16 »

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Quote from: Groundloop on 2014-04-17, 23:40:07
I have updated the design and corrected the error. I have posted the new design
to my work bench.
If I was proficient with Eagle I would help you renumber the component designations to match Akula's diagrams, to avoid all that confusion.
   
img  Groundloop
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #748 on: 2014-04-18, 00:02:01 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2014-04-17, 23:48:16
If I was proficient with Eagle I would help you renumber the component designations to match Akula's diagrams, to avoid all that confusion.

Verpies,

A lot of work but I can do it on the latest version posted.

GL.
   
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Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #749 on: 2014-04-18, 00:16:06 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2014-04-17, 22:21:01
With MOSFET removed, that can happen only if voltage on C11 is greater than voltage on C3

NOTE:  The replies below use the component designations from Akula's chematic diagram v2.1:


D6 will conduct and allow current through L2 only if the voltage across C3 + the EMF generated by L2 is greater than the voltage on C11.
Any current flowing through D6 will charge up C11.


The above is the MAJOR POWER LOOP of the entire circuit.


Hi Verpies

Thanks for cleaning up the schematic....
OK, C11 once charged will supposedly discharge slowly thru L1 (Choke).  The purpose of the  L1 (choke) would be to act a surge suppressor for the transients so the 7812 doesn't burn up.  This feedback loop as you stated is the major power loop for the OU system, right?    So, as C11 charges up at the same time it would be discharging into the L1 (choke) to feed the 7812 to power the TL494.

But until the system is free running, the input voltage/current must pass thru L1 (choke) from opposite side to charge C11 the then thru L1 Primary to the Drain of the MOSFET (when switching)...... So C11 is held @ Vcc as a minimum voltage thru L1 (choke). As stated C11 can charge to a higher voltage when L1  EMF (primary) and C3 voltage exceed Vcc.

As a side note, I remember one of the Russian members at O.U.com mentioning something about the capacitor needing to be on the opposite side of the L1 (choke).   I will have to look for that info.....
When I moved the capacitor to the *other* side of the L1 (choke) I noticed that the simulations in LTspice showed quasi resonant condition.... I have attached the LTspice file if anyone is interested.

My idea is this:  What if a small boost/buck converter (1-3 amp variety) was substituted in place of the 7812 volt reg.  When the voltage dipped below the set value, the boost converter would raise it, and when it went above, the buck would lower it....  This *could* give more leeway to the operation of the control circuitry to get it free running.  Usually these small boost/bucks converters have decent efficiency ratings..

take care, peace
lost_bro
   
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