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Author Topic: hhop  (Read 224896 times)

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hhop hybrid inline full compact extended bubbler

The bubbler has been extended in an outer sleeve around the electrolysis cell and main pump.

The safety bubbler and snapvalve governor form one sub assembly, the other being the electrolysis cell and main pump. They can be assembled and pressure tested separately and then screwed together and sealed to make a full compact hhop hybrid system.


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hhop hybrid inline full compact extended bubbler

The bubbler has been extended in an outer sleeve around the electrolysis cell and main pump.

The safety bubbler and snapvalve governor form one sub assembly, the other being the electrolysis cell and main pump. They can be assembled and pressure tested separately and then screwed together and sealed to make a full compact hhop hybrid system.

I like that idea Rob O0

Regards

Mike 8)

PS. has the white stuff in your neck of the woods gone?


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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Yes mate, the snow has gone, taken the snowmen with it!  :(

I have drawn a circle around the space between the two pistons, makes sense to have the two sub assemblies mate there.

Raising the tubular hho cell up the design has removed the need for a bypass, but created a problem refilling the electrolyte. As the liquid is converted and moves upwards against gravity within the system it transfers mass out of the system.

When the hho cell was in the liquid sump it was never an issue as it was permanently submerged and under hydrostatic pressure. Now the electrode rings will over time become exposed to a gas atmosphere, and this is undesirable. I have had startup ignitions running 12V and a battery charger, possibly RF ignition ?

If you place a spring preloaded NRV (one way valve) with a cracking pressure 5 to 10 psi below your snapvalve governor pressure, then the final part of the stroke of the pump should open that NRV and refill your electrolysis chamber liquid level. The gas and liquid would attempt to equalise pressure, and the pressure has been created at the top of the gas producing cell, pushing on the piston.


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A drawing discussing the problem created by fully vertically compacting the cell design.

The hho reservoir now being liquid isolated will lose mass to gas phase transition, and needs a refill from somewhere.

The pump won't work (cannot pump it's own system), the raised bubbler reservoir might be an option as it is lower pressure and with a larger gravitational potential energy (higher position). This must then itself be filled but there is the option of refilling this from an exterior reservoir.

So now we have a more complicated, self regulating, bypass system that needs designing!

There is the tempting possibility of using the hhop gen 2 combustion to vacuum cycle to suck (draw) water up into the hho cell from a lower feed reservoir.. a true hybrid..  O0


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would you consider a group Skye discussion to help some of us understand as well as invite others to learn ?

perhaps a chalk board discussion/teaching time?
walk thru the MO ?

its in your head and on the page in front of me But....

?

with gratitude regardless
Chet
Ps
recent opportunities to spread this tech have risen to the front [in Africa]
« Last Edit: 2017-12-22, 14:54:38 by Chet K »
   

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Yes if you want we can do a Skype session in the new year.

Everything you need to know is in this thread, it's not new tech but old tech you need to understand.

The basic MO is that electrical energy can be used in a hhop cell (Pulsometer origin) to create Faraday electrolysis and provide for the survival needs of people in an entirely decentralised system. This creates a large pressure increase as the little bit of liquid phase transitions into a gas. As the volume has remained constant this creates an increasing internal pressure on the body.

The gas *must* be delivered into the dead space between the two pistons in the hybrid (the main pump piston and the snapvalve governor). The main pump piston has a resistance set by a spring loaded NRV (cracking pressure). The same can be achieved with an accumulator that would normally require raising the water and storing that energy as gpe.

The liquid is then pumped from the chamber and the volume above the piston is filled with gas at this pressure. The piston then hits mechanical stops which stop the liquid pumping and only builds gas pressure until the snapvalve triggers and evacuates  some of the gas into the bubbler expansion chamber. The safety bubbler is self explanatory.

The main pump piston return spring will then return the piston refilling the liquid chamber with water for the next pump, and the cycle repeats. How far your piston returns depends on how much gas was evacuated past the snapvalve piston. It would be preferable to have a complete evacuation of the gas in the pump chamber but for large volumes of gas the snapvalve would need a temporary hold open feature.

Keep the pump volumes small for safety (less compressed gas) and easier chamber evacuation of the gas. This also increases pump cycle rates at the cost of smaller volumes of water pumped each cycle.

Each hhop hybrid acts as an electrical resistor so wire them in series and parallel to achieve the correct Voltage and Amperage required by your power source (solar panel).

The basic idea to this technology is to run on internal system pressure feedback only, but if you do want to add smart switching and valve control you can.. once you understand what you are trying to achieve with each part of the device.

Africa eh.. well they got plenty of sun and lot's of desert.. sounds like an ideal place for a hhophouse! The hhop system is designed to draw sea water, purify it to a potable drinking standard, water your food garden, provide heating, cooking and refrigeration.


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The hhop system is designed to draw sea water, purify it to a potable drinking standard, water your food garden, provide heating, cooking and refrigeration.

The hhop hybrid is designed to use solar energy input and provide the mechanical technology you need to power a hhophouse.

I want to live in one of these basically!

http://uk.businessinsider.com/indoor-rainforest-dubai-green-planet-project-2016-9?r=US&IR=T

 O0


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Some Aussie's joining in:

http://northcity4.com/our-indoor-forest/

In 2014 Northcity4’s Indoor Forest Project was chosen as a finalist in the Bank of Melbourne Local Project competition. Thanks to everyone who voted for us, we were successful in winning $10,000 to realise our dream to create an air-purifying, sustainable, permanent green installation at Northcity4. Our “forest on wheels” is a living work of art, based on NASA’s research on houseplants’ air-cleansing qualities and on air-quality analysis at NC4. It has been created from locally grown plants and locally built vessels of sustainable materials. All our research and project outcomes will become freely available for other makers as well as the wider community. Keep an eye on this page for updates.


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hhop gen 2

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2288.msg35176#msg35176

Start here, use a liquid piston and a central bypass tube, to deliver the gas to the top of the chamber.

Set your piston area to 1 inch square for standardisation across builds and measure your pump rates versus electrical energy in.

It would help if you automated the process by swapping out the ignition system for a snapvalve governer.

You don't need a main pump piston in this configuration because the boundary layer between liquid and gas forms the piston surface.

You can only refill at the rate of your water inlet supply, how much potential energy it has. If the gas remaining in the chamber is at a higher pressure than the water in the lower chamber it will continue to pump and not refill. That's why I used low electrolysis gas generation rates because atmospheric pressure from the reservoir could partially refill the chamber before gas pressure built up again.

Once you have got that far you will see why a solid pump piston was necessary in order to hit mechanical stops, that would build gas pressure in an internal fixed volume (piston has now stopped), and trigger the snapvalve. The return spring then makes sense to decrease the gas volume chamber and achieve pressure equilibrium. The gas pressure will continue to build and pump liquid again, cycle repeats.


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My OUR 2018 project is the hhopstove, a new type of portable solar stove that draws the water to camp, heats, cooks and purifies drinking water.

Portable stove

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_stove

A portable stove is a cooking stove specially designed to be portable and lightweight, used in camping, picnicking, backpacking, or other use in remote locations where an easily transportable means of cooking or heating is needed. Portable stoves can be used in diverse situations, such as for outdoor food service and catering[1] and in field hospitals.[2]

Since the invention of the portable stove in the 19th century, a wide variety of designs and models have seen use in a number of different applications. Portable stoves can be broken down into several broad categories based on the type of fuel used and stove design: unpressurized stoves that use solid or liquid fuel placed in the burner before ignition; stoves that use a volatile liquid fuel in a pressurized burner; bottled gas stoves; and gravity-fed "spirit" stoves.


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We need to define what the main parts and function of the hhopstove are.

1) A solar panel. (or alternative electrical supply)

2) An electrolysis cell. (self pressurising)

3) A main piston pump.

4) An automatic snapvalve governor. (alternatively any valve with an electronic brain governor)

5) A safety bubbler expansion chamber.

6) A hho flame feed gas reservoir.

7) A hho flame burner nozzle.

8) A steam distillation chamber.

Our task is to design and engineer all of those sleeved subassemblies into one inline design and come in with a total footprint similar in size to a Kelly kettle base camp stove model.


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hhopstove

The hho gas feed reservoir has been fully sleeved and enlarged to provide the necessary capacity. The gas pressure must always be above natural atmospheric pressure, and so the pressure behaviour will hunt between maximum and minimum reservoir pressure, as the gas is used (combusted) pressure will drop and as the gas is replenished (generated through liquid to gas phase transition) the pressure will increase.

The water inlet and output valves are shown on separate sides of the system but can be built into one inline assembly using radial porting and operated by the opposing pressure cycles (similar to a pneumatic slide check valve).

The flame output at the top of the cell can simply boil water, or a more advanced design would incorporate a pressure cooker on top for efficiency (and flavour! yum).. I do not advise this for the inexperienced, and it is not strictly necessary. For safety sake at the moment leave this water heating assembly open to atmospheric pressure (through the heat exchanger / condenser assembly for refrigeration and condensate capture).

We can talk about the potential for drawing water to camp using a partial low pressure hho phase transition event (after most of the gas has been vented off to the burner) at a later date.. but.. you can also emit this process completely and use the main piston pump gas pressure to pump the water up to the stove. The only limits on this are the stable gas pressure you can achieve. The limit for the combustion draw option is 1 atmosphere = 10 meters.. The main pump can go much higher  O0

The hhopstove is the basic model for the hhophouse, and different units can be performing different functions, dependent on the local need..  ;)

I have pursued automatic pressure feedback regulators as a personal challenge to fully understand the mechanisms at play within hhop.. however, if you want to use your own smart switching and valve systems then feel free to do so, with one word of caution.. If you are using electronic solenoid valves there is always the potential for the hho to get into the system and one spark = bang.. I have previously suggested electromagnetic solenoid switching through pressure walls to overcome this safety issue.

Happy New Year to all OUR friends!  O0
« Last Edit: 2018-01-01, 23:27:04 by evolvingape »


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Our task is to design and engineer all of those sleeved subassemblies into one inline design and come in with a total footprint similar in size to a Kelly kettle base camp stove model.

For those wondering what a Kelly kettle base camp stove model is:

https://www.kellykettle.com/kelly-kettles/stainless-steel-kelly-kettles/stainless-steel-base-camp-1-5lt

One benefit of the hhopstove will be no smoke to give your position away  O0

Some nice January offers on as well:

https://www.kellykettle.com/kelly-kettles/stainless-steel-kelly-kettles


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1) A solar panel. (or alternative electrical supply)

If your solar panel array is pulling in on average 1kW for 8 hours of every day then you have harvested 8 kW/h of energy stored in your battery array.

If you run your hhopstove for 24 hours continuously then the energy available from the battery bank to do that will be 8000 Watts / 24 hours = 333.33 W/h

333 Watts continuous for 24 hours is a lot of gas..

You will obviously harvest more energy during the summer than during the winter, so adjust your figures accordingly to run the hhopstove 365 days a year at the capacity you require for your needs.


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2) An electrolysis cell. (self pressurising)

You can use any kind of DC electrolysis cell as long as it is structurally capable of withstanding the internal pressure created by the liquid to gas phase transition.

If you use AC electrolysis then you will need a driving circuit to run form your DC electrical storage battery.

I use DC only because it is simpler and the energy draw can be easily set by the physical size of your electrolysis cell and will provide a large surface area for gas evolution.

I don't like plastic pressure housings! I prefer stainless but there is no reason you cannot cheaply encase the cell in a plastic pipe as an extra precaution.


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3) A main piston pump.

This is the heart of the hhopstove and exploits the ability to use stable gas pressure volume differential to do work on a liquid while separating the combustion potential for use in another process.

Small piston volumes allow for a faster system cycle and less potential for loss in the event that your gas unexpectedly combusts. If this happens the system will just reset and continue automatically.

There is the option of including a vacuum water draw to the cycle after venting off the majority of your hho gas to the hho torch feed reservoir, but this is limited to 1 atmosphere of pressure and about 10 meters of draw. You would also need to add an ignition circuit to the system, an extra complexity, along with a pressure pulse that would not be particularly useful in this system.

For higher draw requirements (beyond 10 meters) a positive pumping force would be required and this can be achieved with a stronger main pump spring, the heavy spring providing the vacuum effect beyond 1 atm to draw the water up to operating level. The tradeoff here is that the system would take longer to cycle and operate at a higher pressure, requiring significantly more gas to fill the piston bore cylinder volume.

The triggering pressure of the snapvalve governor must be slightly above the operating pressure of the system, and can be achieved with a physical stop preventing the piston from moving beyond that point.

The system backpressure is set by the spring loaded NRV cracking pressure.

It would be a good idea to add a manual priming option for the pump. If for example the water is 30 meters below you then you would need 3 atmospheres to raise it up to the hhopstove, so set your system to 4 atm (60 psi) on the NRV outlet and the main pump spring (swap it out) and supply that energy yourself rather than wasting a lot of time and your electrical energy from the battery to prime the pump.


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4) An automatic snapvalve governor. (alternatively any valve with an electronic brain governor)

My preference is for a relatively high pressure system compared to atmospheric pressure. (I have demonstrated to a handful of people a snapvalve governor operating at 200 psi without combustion from a DC electrolysis cell at 6 Watts input power over a period of 6 to 7 minutes; this is not faith, it is fact)

The system operates on a pressure gradient with the highest pressure developed at source (the electrolysis cell) and the lowest pressure at the system termination, the hho flame burner.

The higher the pressure the larger the pressure drop when vented to a lower pressure gas system. (The observers of my demonstration witnessed a drop to zero pressure on the gauge, a slight pause, and then a steady pressure increase as the gas was evolved continuously at a specific rate)

There was no fluid pumped during this demonstration as I was effectively limiting the variables to demonstrate specific behaviour. If I was to have pumped fluid with a solid piston and a main return spring the volume would have increased and the amount of gas ejected from that part of the system would have been reduced slightly, hence my preference for high pressure small volume liquid pumping.

The main piston would have returned until pressure equilibrium was achieved, partially refilling the chamber with water, and the cycle would repeat. It is not necessary to complete a full piston stroke as the gas acts as a spring and the system will cycle..

Do not use a solenoid valve that has the potential to leak hydrogen into the mechanism for obvious reasons.. The brain works best on automatic pressure feedback!

The main spring in the example of 4 atm (60 psi) will move first (solid frame of reference) and any liquid pumped will be secondary.. you can set the liquid NRV to less than the main spring resistance.. so a system set at 5 atm (75 psi) will do 4 atm of work in the solid frame and 1 atm in the liquid frame of the given example.. think about it..

 O0


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5) A safety bubbler expansion chamber.

6) A hho flame feed gas reservoir.

7) A hho flame burner nozzle.


The bubbler, reservoir and burner form a sub assembly on the output side of the system.

The reservoir must have enough capacity to provide a constant flow of gas at a suitable pressure. As the snapvalve governor vents to the expansion the pressure in this sub assembly it will be at it's maximum and the pressure will drop as the gas is combusted at the burner. If the snapvalve is cycling too slowly to maintain a suitable positive pressure the flame will go out obviously.

The bubbler integration is the safety feature and prevents flashbacks from the burner igniting the reservoir. The electrolysis cell itself is protected from this somewhat because of the spring preload on the snapvalve piston holding it shut. You can of course add on a solid state flashback arrestor bewteen the burner and the bubbler similar to the arrestors used on welding equipment.


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8) A steam distillation chamber.

This is the part that turns non potable water into drinking water for your own use as well as irrigation. The heat energy for this process is supplied by the hho gas burner.

You cannot directly drink the waste water product from the conversion of hho gas to water as it will be contaminated, so you must use a steam distillation process and allow the steam to condense back into clean water. The latent waste heat from this process is ideal to run your absorption refrigeration system which can be bought off the shelf and is designed to run on a propane flame energy source.

There is the potential to have a steam pressure cooker assembly as an optional add on but I do not recommend the home experimenter pursue this as it is just too dangerous to develop outside of controlled safety conditions. Pressurised steam explosions can be extremely dangerous!


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snapvalve governor operation


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Pressure Regulator

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_regulator

A pressure regulator is a control valve that reduces the input pressure of a fluid to a desired value at its output. Regulators are used for gases and liquids, and can be an integral device with an output pressure setting, a restrictor and a sensor all in the one body, or consist of a separate pressure sensor, controller and flow valve.

Operation

A pressure regulator's primary function is to match the flow of gas through the regulator to the demand for gas placed upon it, whilst maintaining a constant output pressure.

If the load flow decreases, then the regulator flow must decrease also. If the load flow increases, then the regulator flow must increase in order to keep the controlled pressure from decreasing due to a shortage of gas in the pressure system.

A pressure regulator includes a restricting element, a loading element, and a measuring element:

    The restricting element is a valve that can provide a variable restriction to the flow, such as a globe valve, butterfly valve, poppet valve, etc.
    The loading element is a part that can apply the needed force to the restricting element. This loading can be provided by a weight, a spring, a piston actuator, or the diaphragm actuator in combination with a spring.
    The measuring element functions to determine when the inlet flow is equal to the outlet flow. The diaphragm itself is often used as a measuring element; it can serve as a combined element.

In the pictured single-stage regulator, a force balance is used on the diaphragm to control a poppet valve in order to regulate pressure. With no inlet pressure, the spring above the diaphragm pushes it down on the poppet valve, holding it open. Once inlet pressure is introduced, the open poppet allows flow to the diaphragm and pressure in the upper chamber increases, until the diaphragm is pushed upward against the spring, causing the poppet to reduce flow, finally stopping further increase of pressure. By adjusting the top screw, the downward pressure on the diaphragm can be increased, requiring more pressure in the upper chamber to maintain equilibrium. In this way, the outlet pressure of the regulator is controlled.

Single stage regulator

High pressure gas from the supply enters into the regulator through the inlet valve. The gas then enters the body of the regulator, which is controlled by the needle valve. The pressure rises, which pushes the diaphragm, closing the inlet valve to which it is attached, and preventing any more gas from entering the regulator.

The outlet side is fitted with a pressure gauge. As gas is drawn from the outlet side, the pressure inside the regulator body falls. The diaphragm is pushed back by the spring and the valve opens, letting more gas in from the supply until equilibrium is reached between the outlet pressure and the spring. The outlet pressure therefore depends on the spring force, which can be adjusted by means of an adjustment handle or knob.

The outlet pressure and the inlet pressure hold the diaphragm/poppet assembly in the closed position against the force of the large spring. If the supply pressure falls, it is as if the large spring compression is increased allowing more gas and higher pressure to build in the outlet chamber until an equilibrium pressure is reached. Thus, if the supply pressure falls, the outlet pressure will increase, provided the outlet pressure remains below the falling supply pressure. This is the cause of end-of-tank dump where the supply is provided by a pressurized gas tank. With a single stage regulator, when the supply tank gets low, the lower inlet pressure causes the outlet pressure to climb. If the spring compression is not adjusted to compensate, the poppet can remain open and allow the tank to rapidly dump its remaining contents. In other words, the lower the supply pressure, the lower the pressure differential the regulator can achieve for a given spring setting.

Working Principle - Single Stage Pressure Regulator

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf3xc1BGYGo

How does a natural gas regulator work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4DDnoMAHY8


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Chet got his Q&A Skype session last night and so I have put up a new drawing clarifying some of the things we talked about.

A single stage pressure regulator provides a constant gas flow at the required pressure to the flame burner.

The piston area has been reduced to one inch square to increase cycle time of the snapvalve governor preventing the hho reservoir from being starved of gas.

The electrolysis cell has been expanded to provide a larger surface area and increase the rate of gas production.


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A question was asked about the inclusion of neutral tubes in the electrolysis cell. This technique can lower voltage and lead to higher cell efficiency:

http://www.hho4free.com/neutral_plates.html

http://www.hho4free.com/number_of_plates.html

It also reduces the number of electrical connections necessary to make a circuit, without sacrificing productive surface area, and makes construction easier.

I have successfully used heat shrink tubing to form a dielectric barrier around the main pump shaft, isolating it from the circuit.


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If you choose to isolate the water level of the electrolysis cell it will need replenishing every so often as the liquid water is phase transitioned to gas and the mass leaves the system.

A fill port could be used, itself fed from an external electrolyte reservoir at the desired fill level of the cell. The safety bubbler will also need fill port access.

If the liquid level is below the top of each electrode tube the plates will be isolated, if it is above the top of the each electrode the cell will not be electrically isolated. I have successfully used both types of cell but I did not spend a lot of time analysing the performance of each. The tubular cell that ignited off a battery charger when turned on was the isolated type with the central positive tube electrode a few mm clear of the water electrolyte level, a spark gap in effect.. but ignition with 12V ? still not worked that one out!


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Everyman decries immorality
The hhopstove is designed so that the gas pressure in the hho torch feed reservoir operates on a pressure gradient. The gas output to the hho torch is constant which is managed by the pressure regulator, but the reservoir gas pressure will fluctuate between maximum and then reduce over time as the gas is burnt off to atmosphere.

The snapvalve governor controls the rate at which the reservoir is refilled, and this is directly related to the electrical energy that is supplied to the electrolysis cell to control the rate of gas production. In the event of the pressure regulator becoming blocked the gas pressure within the hhopstove will continue to rise as there is no feedback mechanism to turn the electricity supply off and stop producing gas. The snapvalve governor will continue to function as it constantly seeks to equalise force on both acting faces of the piston and the overall system pressure will continue to rise, as will the pressure the snapvalve triggers at due to an increased gas pressure creating a larger force on the top of the piston trying to keep it closed.

If this should happen the system gas pressure within the hhopstove will continue to rise until one of two things happens, the housing will become stressed beyond it's mechanical limits and crack venting the gas pressure to atmosphere, or the hho will reach self ignition pressure. As a safety measure it is necessary to place a pressure relief valve (PRV or blow off valve) in the housing wall of the hho feed reservoir. This will allow the gas to be vented to atmosphere and prevent a potentially dangerous condition occurring. The safety PRV is obviously going to be set at a higher cracking pressure than system operating pressure. It would be sensible to route it so that it is not near the hho flame assembly, as the PRV could also be triggered in the event that gas production within the cell is at a much higher rate than can be burnt off by the constant low pressure flame.


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Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   
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