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Author Topic: Gas /Petrol Vrs Propane/natural gas  (Read 13650 times)
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I am starting this thread to understand whats up with Propane and natural gas for autos.

apparently on the front side of the planet [Australia] they have Propane technology available at every pump.
I have been told that it is MUCH cheaper to run on Propane in Australia

So why doesn't everyone do that on the front side.
We can't even buy that at the pump on the "backside" of the planet [USA]

And I also understand its available through a backside company {GM}
?

I Do I have this right?
thx
Chet

PS
As one addendum ,I could probably get a tanker truck of Propane at my house in The USA ,I just don't have access to the fuel in my auto?
?
[of course that can change if it becomes apparent there are financial benefits
   

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tExB=qr
Propane is available at pumps in the US, but it's pretty scarce.   You have to have a tank that can store it and a pump, and it isn't really much cheaper.
   
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LPG is common place here in australia,and is far cheaper than gasoline. We also got paid by the government to put LPG conversions into our vehicle's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGE7jMmLgvw
Im quite supprised that it hasnt taken off in America and other countries?.
This page has a lot of info on LPG-  http://www.racv.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/racv/Internet/Primary/my+car/advice+_+information/fuel/liquefied+petroleum+gas+(LPG)+member+information+sheet?CACHE=NONE

Almost every fuel station here in oz has LPG bowsers now,and is about half the cost of gasoline-not to mention it is much better for the enviroment.
   
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Grumpy
I had heard of a few "select" places around the country that are putting LPG pumps for public use.
In NYC we have all the buses running on LPG ,[I believe most US citys do this].
However Not readily available as an "alternative fuel".

When I go TO PA [pensylvania for the folks on the front side] they have every farmer pumping LPG out of the ground
I wonder if I can Buy it "wholesale" from the farmer the way I buy his chicken eggs?

HHMMM
quite sure they PTB have all that sorted out already.

TinMan thx
For that info,the infrastructure for auto fuels can take a very big turn over here [switch to LPG],since it is apparently under our entire country [quite literally]
and we don't have to get it transported/imported.

   

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there's propane and there's natural gas.  Propane is easy to compress and transport, liquifying at around 200 psi.  Natural gas liquifies at about 5000 psi, so is much more difficult to use.

I never looked into it, but I was told years ago that the price of propane is directly related to the price of oil.  I'm not sure if propane is taxed like gasoline is.  Our gas tax just went up 4 or 5 cents a gallon.  Taxes on gasoline are around 40 cents a gallon now.  It's rediculous.

Propane on the other hand, is about $2.19, and about $4 delivered (usually a 100 gallon minimum).

Energy is going to be a real problem in the future.  Yeah, we have all sorts of untapped reserves, but we also have an ever-increasing demand.
   

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Buy me some coffee
Most gas stations here in the UK have LPG.
You get less milage to a tank full, the price is cheaper, although the government have added tax to make it only just better, LPG was once dirt cheap, i understand it's a waste product you see being burnt off at the refinery.

Years ago when i worked for an engineering company there was an engineer who was driving around with a propane tank in his boot, he did the conversion himself, this is way before it was even considered for auto use, he was way ahead and he said it was way cheaper than gasoline even back then but i guess they had not put tax on it at that point, someone else once said the cheapest was was to buy a super huge bottle that the roofing guys use to heat pitch and pump that in the car.

The big thing in the UK for the last 5 years is bio diesel, any restaurant/ chip shop uses canola oil, they once had to pay to get the used stuff dumped, now people call round with Lorry's and pick it up free, who knows they may even pay the restaurant for it these days, they take it back and convert it into bio diesel, i wonder if that has yet taken off in the US? if not there's big opportunity's there guys.
   
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Well I suppose that's everything I would ever need to know about Propane in the USA
thx
Grumpy
@Peter
Biodiesel in your car is a fulltime job if you "harvest" yourself as well as an amazing pain in the pants and wallet should the
mix be botched.

Natural gas and Methane are interesting do to low maintenance issues,I think Slyder had posted something recently on Methane for home heating utilising the homes waste system.
 :o
thx
Chet
   

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Buy me a beer
Most gas stations here in the UK have LPG.
You get less milage to a tank full, the price is cheaper, although the government have added tax to make it only just better, LPG was once dirt cheap, i understand it's a waste product you see being burnt off at the refinery.

Years ago when i worked for an engineering company there was an engineer who was driving around with a propane tank in his boot, he did the conversion himself, this is way before it was even considered for auto use, he was way ahead and he said it was way cheaper than gasoline even back then but i guess they had not put tax on it at that point, someone else once said the cheapest was was to buy a super huge bottle that the roofing guys use to heat pitch and pump that in the car.

The big thing in the UK for the last 5 years is bio diesel, any restaurant/ chip shop uses canola oil, they once had to pay to get the used stuff dumped, now people call round with Lorry's and pick it up free, who knows they may even pay the restaurant for it these days, they take it back and convert it into bio diesel, i wonder if that has yet taken off in the US? if not there's big opportunity's there guys.

Propane and Butane are bye products of oil, methane normally is natural. In the UK, can't remember where :-[ Propane and Butane was stored underground making the ground frozen all year round, this was because there was a glut that they did not know what to do with it, being a bye product of oil refining something had to be done, so into the ground it went C.C

I suppose we should all take up hot air ballooning and create a lot of hot air to use it up ;D

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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I have a friend that made biodeisel for a few years.  You could get the used oil free back then, but now people will pay a little for it.  It's a job to break it all down into a usable oil.

Methane is almost practical if you have a source of material to put in the digester.  The digester has to be kept in a certain temperature range to keep it alive to make methane.  Lots of people build these in Africa and use the gas to cook with.  There is a great deal of literature on the subject.

You just can't beat idea of a good ol' free electrical generator.  That would be so convenient and versatile.
   
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We converted our Land Rover to run on LPG years ago, and to be honest I doubt we could afford to run it if we ran it solely on petrol. We can switch from gas to petrol at the flick of a switch, but we never use petrol other than in emergencies. We have a standard 16 gallon petrol tank and an 80 litre gas tank fitted.

Petrol is slightly more calorific, so we get something around 17-18mg on petrol as opposed to 15-16mpg on gas. However, when you consider that petrol is around £1.36p per litre as opposed to gas being 68p per litre, the slightly less mpg figure is more than compensated for by the price.  The big problem is (and contrary to what Peterae stated) that there are actually very few petrol stations that provide LPG, and some parts of the country are particularly poorly provided, which means that you really have to be dual-fuel capable.

Although LPG is around half the price of petrol and a cleaner fuel, LPG never quite took off for one main reason: where do you put the gas tank.  Because it has always been impractical to remove the petrol tank and fit just a gas tank, this means that in most cases a large gas tank needs located somewhere within the vehicle, usually in the boot, which then severely compromises your load space. Toroidal gas tanks have been designed to fit in place of the spare wheel in some vehicles, but as you can imagine this creates it's own problem - where do you then put the spare wheel? When located inside the vehicle, the gas tank valve also needs to be properly sealed and vented outside of the vehicle. Add to all this the initial cost of having an after-market LPG system fitted and LPG quickly looks a lot less practical.

Luckily for us with our old Land Rover that sits a round 12 inches off the ground, we were able to sling a tank underneath, so we suffered no loss of space internally.  Though we still have a 5 mile drive to our nearest LPG filling point.  :(
   
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Centralflow
I suppose the way that the gas became available as a Byproduct of Oil harvesting has lead to Fracking in the USA
and a whole nother ballgame over here.

Would not mind spending some time in that balloon Though.....[escape..]

@Farrah
Thank you for that contribution,
In the info that Grumpy posted I saw reference to Multiport liquid injection being the most efficient method for LPG in an ICE, apparently maintaining the liquid state right into the combustion chamber.

Does your Rover Run On that system ?
Also would they allow a bigger storage tank at your home in the UK ?[private filling station].

The disparity in price over there seems huge ,In The USA the price in my area is actually higher if you figure in the
caloric value [bang for the buck].

However there is a bit of a revolution going on with that fuel ,I have recently spent time in parts of the USA where
they are removing the gas from the ground and it seems the market here will become much more realistic once that flood of product becomes more available,I must add that the Chinese and Saudis do seem to be Underwriting the work in some states[apparently exporting],which will of course keep the price up.

HHHMMM Wholesale is one dollar over here [nice mark up it seems?]
  http://ycharts.com/indicators/us_wholesale_propane_price

Chet






 

« Last Edit: 2013-07-09, 14:27:16 by ramset »
   
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Our petrol and diesel prices are already ridiculously high compared to the States thanks to high taxation, which makes LPG far more appealing. Petrol works out at just over £6 per gallon over here nowadays! But as said, enthusiasm is dampened by the scarcity of filling stations, the price of the conversion and the practicalities of locating the tank. Plus you have to consider that if it took off more, no doubt the government (slimy bastards that they are) would see fit to hike up the price of it without a second thought.

Our system is a single point system that feeds gas directly down through the carburettor after the liquid is allowed to turn back into gaseous form via the vaporiser.  Ours is the simplest system you can get, it does the job perfectly well and we've never had any problems with it.  Multipoint sequential systems provide gas to each cylinder as required, but as they need sequencing electronics and more components are more complicated and accordingly more expensive.  Of course , sequential multi-point systems are a prerequisite of fuel injection engines, and will be a little more fuel efficient. Never heard of a system that does away with the vaporiser and has liquid squirted directly into the cylinders!

Unless you lived in the countryside and had a bit of land, it would not be practical to have a massive great tank of LPG sitting on your front lawn, and I very much doubt it would be allowed if it was known you were using it for road fuel. They do allow gas storage tanks for heating the house, but again it depends where you live. Out in the country where mains gas or electricity is unavailable then gas storage tanks are a necessity, but for most people within range of mains supplies, I doubt it would be allowed at all.

You can fill up LPG tanks from bottles of propane if you have a special pump, but I'm not sure this would work out to be cost-effective in the long run. And who wants to be lugging heavy propane bottles around all the time? To say nothing of the legalities of it if you are caught using heating gas for your vehicle and so avoiding car fuel tax!
   
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Farrah
All quite true.
The Governments need for revenue [at all costs] has to be considered,and would be the quickest path to problems
over here [tax evasion].

Never hand a man a stick to beat you with.........

That being said ,I am going to Chat with the Gas harvestors when I go to PA in a few days.
Its like wild west stuff around them LPG transport trucks  all manner of infrastructure being set up as I type,it seems they are making this all work at all costs over here [domestic energy resource].

but as we know the Gov't can make a mess of anything in no time flat!!

thx
Chet


   
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I suppose I'll be building one of these settups in the near future.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/green-transportation/propane-car-conversion-zmaz72mjztak.aspx#axzz2Yey564NJ

This hippy says a 100 bucks'll buy you everything you need [almost :'}

--------------------------------
thx
Chet
   
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That 'hippy' was detailing the cost of a DIY conversion in 1972 - I think you'll find things have gone up in price a tad since then.

It's not overly complicated to DIY, but you do need the right parts and you really do need to know what you are doing.

Ours was A DIY instalment. We sourced the parts via Ebay and I think it worked out at around £350 for everything about 8 years ago (when a system professionally installed was hovering around the £1200 mark) . 

Though, if as Grumpy stated, there is very little difference between the price of LPG and petrol over in the States (as opposed to over here), you've got to ask yourself is the hassle worth it?  Don't forget you may also need to pay to have the installation checked and certified to be road legal.
   

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Buy me some coffee
http://www.campingandcaravandirect.co.uk/Calor-Gas-Cylinders-/47Kg-Propane-Gas-Refill/p-120-493/

56p a liter for propane and i have not really looked to find the cheapest, but is it butane that cars use? I seem to remember it being a blue bottle my friend used in his boot.
   
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http://www.campingandcaravandirect.co.uk/Calor-Gas-Cylinders-/47Kg-Propane-Gas-Refill/p-120-493/

56p a liter for propane and i have not really looked to find the cheapest, but is it butane that cars use? I seem to remember it being a blue bottle my friend used in his boot.

Autogas is primarily propane, not butane. I'm sure Butane would work, but I think it's less calorific. Legally you can't use those propane bottles to fill your car as road fuel tax is not paid on them. Or if you do use bottled gas, you should - by law at least - pay the government extra tax.  

It's not really practical to use a bottle of gas in a vehicle, because the propane expels from the top of the bottle in gaseous form, unlike in a fitted tank which stays liquid until the vaporiser reduces the pressure. The vaporiser also regulates the gas flow as required by the engine. Therefore to use a bottle, in theory you would have to invert it, and the standard valves are not designed for that.  Given the nature of the removable and relatively weak connection to the bottle, I would certainly not want a live bottle of propane rolling around in my boot - talk about dangerous, it really is a ticking bomb!

An old man and old lady were killed by a bottle of butane a couple of years ago over here when it exploded in their faces as the old lady tried to light the portable gas heater.  The explosion was so great that it took out the end terraced cottage, and the adjoining cottage. Structural damage was so bad that both cottages had to be rebuilt. It is really not worth the risk.

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/gas-explosion-kills-shustoke-pensioners-3054996

So you really have to ask yourself is it worth the hassle of acquiring a large bottle of propane and then filling your car from it. Remember you will have to cart the bottle to and from the supplier, pay and initial cost for the bottle itself, by a pump to enable you to transfer from the bottle to your tank... and then hope that you aren't caught or shopped for using it in your car - fines can be hefty!
 
   

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Buy me some coffee
Quote
Autogas is primarily propane, not butane. I'm sure Butane would work, but I think it's less calorific. Legally you can't use those propane bottles to fill your car as road fuel tax is not paid on them. Or if you do use bottled gas, you should - by law at least - pay the government extra tax.  

It's not really practical to use a bottle of gas in a vehicle, because the propane expels from the top of the bottle in gaseous form, unlike in a fitted tank which stays liquid until the vaporiser reduces the pressure. The vaporiser also regulates the gas flow as required by the engine. Therefore to use a bottle, in theory you would have to invert it, and the standard valves are not designed for that.  Given the nature of the removable and relatively weak connection to the bottle, I would certainly not want a live bottle of propane rolling around in my boot - talk about dangerous, it really is a ticking bomb!

An old man and old lady were killed by a bottle of butane a couple of years ago over here when it exploded in their faces as the old lady tried to light the portable gas heater.  The explosion was so great that it took out the end terraced cottage, and the adjoining cottage. Structural damage was so bad that both cottages had to be rebuilt. It is really not worth the risk.

Absolutely i am not advocating anyone do this, just saying that i knew someone years ago who did it and it ran fine.
The bottle was strapped in the boot though so no rolling around bottle  O0
   
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Farrah
Yes the Cost is higher than the mother earth news Hippy article from the last century...
Even though my donor autos are from the last century ,the cost will be more in these modern times.

I have a friend underwriting the cost for parts and I suppose we will have to be Sourcing components now to keep costs
at a minimum.
Business as usual for me.........


As always you add very relevant and useful info.

I will add one comment regarding the tank,apparently these can be built in any shape thanks to the Swedes
http://www.litecylinder.com/ourstory.aspx

And one thought
For  the immediate future Gas seems to be a local resource void of all the "Drama"[WARS} associated with OIL and petrol.
although some other drama re "fracking" is filled with disinfo and storytelling.

Given the Global warming state of mind our government in the US has gone way out of its way to create and the obvious need for cleaner air..
The Mother Earth mentality will get behind this idea with a vengeance in the USA given half a chance.

That makes for opportunity!
thx
Chet



   
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Just had a business acquaintance tell me there selling propane at .25 cents a gallon at the well head in UTAH for walkup drive up business?[something about transport costs being a problem??}

Gotta get me to a well head........

thx
Chet
   
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Propane at the well head?

I'm not sure what all the huff is about because CNG & LPG vehicles can be ordered as a special order from the auto manufacturers.

I think you may only find such vehicles in a company fleet. There is a large company near mine that has all CNG (compressed natural gas) vehicles from golf carts to sedans to trucks & fork-lifts. They also have their own fuel depot.

In the States it usually isn't a good idea to convert your vehicle unless it is pre-1988. The local antique auto club does conversions but they have a licensed technician to do so. At one of their rallies I asked about the CNG vehicle displayed and why it was CNG. The answer was basically that an old car was chosen for rebuild just so it could legally use CNG or LPG.

You can buy conversion kits but I don't think it is a simple process for a DIY'er.
   
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WW
Thx for the info,I doubt its Propane [as per my quote] at the well head,I spoke with a fellow from Oklahoma a bit ago and I believe its "natural gas",as Opposed to Unnatural....................Propane?

In the continental US we have enough Natural gas in reserve to power the whole planet into another orbit,however
the folks that send our Kids to war to fight fot their right to run the economy and the country are cutting that supply off at all costs!

Messy business indeed!

Thx
Chet

   
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