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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Theory and Learning Center > EM Theory > Displacement Current - Does it Exist?
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img  aetherevarising
Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #50 on: 2010-11-30, 02:43:34 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-11-30, 00:41:31
CONDUCTION AND DISPLACEMENT CURRENTS IN CAPACITORS
J.Edwards
School of Electrical and Electronic Systems Engineering
Queensland University Of Technology

Even the most basic electrical devices rely upon electromagnetic wave propagation and
associated displacement currents to establish conductor currents. These electromagnetic
waves required to change device currents propagate mainly in the insulating medium of
the device between its conductors, and the associated displacement currents play a
prominent part in establishing the conductor conduction currents. In the case of
capacitors the conductor current is established by displacement currents in the insulating
dielectric medium, as the electromagnetic waves travel in and out of the capacitor due to
reflections off its intrinsic open circuit termination.

Hi all.  I'm a little bit wary of posting anything here at all.  I've just read this thread through - very much a cursary overview.  Here's some of the things that I have difficulty with.  Edwards starts off - stating that ALL electrical devices rely on electromagnetic wave propation.  Nothing explained by what he means by this.  Is it the flow of electrons - as a wave?  Or the changing magnetic fields - as a wave!?  Or what?  Or both?  Then.  Apparently what's required to change these currents that he also for some reason calls 'device currents' - (that's a new reach into yet more confusing terms) propogate in the "insulating medium of the device between its conductors".  This is determined how?  By stating it?  Or by tests?  And then what tests?  And what insulating medium?  Then.  These AND associated 'displacement currents' establish another well known phenomenon 'conductor currents'.  They're clearly intended to be different to each other.  Exactly how different?  Again is some of it based on some material such as electrons?  Or what?  And then the clincher.  The conductor current - in turn - is ESTABLISHED by DISPLACEMENT CURRENTS in the insulating dielectric medium - as these waves 'reflect' off that open circuit termination?  Now the waves have a 'reflection'?  Or is it a 'deflection'.  And exactly what does this imply?  That electromagnetic waves, whatever it is that they comprise - always duplicate themselves - in some sort of copy or a reflection?  Or do they simply bounce off that medium.  What actually is he describing?  With the utmost respect - I am that dim or that literal - that I absolutely do not understand any part of this kind of dissertation.  The worst of it is that it's clearly earnest and learned and the most of you entirely understand it.  

To me it's just gobbledygook?  Wish to God I could get to grips with these kind of concepts.  I can honestly say that I understand absolutely no part of it and I'm reasonably au fait with some fundamental electromagnetic principles and I certainly have a passing knowledge of the English language.  Not sure if anyone is equal to or inclined to a fuller explanation - and certainly there's no obligation.  But I'd be the happy recipient of some interpretation of all this that could make some kind of sense.  Until then I must just admit that I have no idea whatsoever about what you experts assume to be the properties of electric or electromagnetic energy and the force fields that generate that energy.  Would that I did.  LOL.

Rosemary
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #51 on: 2010-11-30, 03:28:01 »

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I think Edwards is referring to all currents in a device when he uses the term "device currents", as a broad and general term.

A displacement current is generally considered to be a current that propagates through a dielectric via changes in the polarization of said dielectric.  Technicallly, this sort of current is a "polarization current".

A true "displacement current" propagates via an actual change in position of the dielectric.

Both of these forms of current were shown to exist physically and not ot be mere mathematical entities by Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen in a series of careful experiments detailed here:

 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CCgQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbjr.birjournals.org%2Fcgi%2Freprint%2F70%2F836%2F809.pdf&ei=FWv0TPKaH4O78gb-2dTNDA&usg=AFQjCNEJovFU37HH6Kby44Xn5G9UO273QQ&sig2=bcoiJYQN1_K7Zo7GTZcd1A

AND the last page of this article:

http://bjr.birjournals.org/cgi/reprint/71/842/243


Edwards' term "conductor currents" has the same meaning as "conduction current" and is what most just call "current" and it is propagated through a conductor.

Physicist that study electrodynamics or plasma's are very familiar with these different currents.

An important note is that "conduction current" does not start to flow the moment you flip the switch, it takes a little time.

The stuff about reflections comes from transmission line theory and it not a simple as it appears because voltage and current do not work the same way.
   
img  aetherevarising
Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #52 on: 2010-11-30, 03:45:11 »
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Thanks for the link - very, very much.  I could not only open it but am able to understand it - I think - certainly at first read.  But I'll need to study it.  WOW.  Not often that I manage that much from the click of the mouse.

Kindest regards,
Rosemary
   
img  BEP
Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #53 on: 2010-11-30, 07:01:13 »
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Rosemary,

Try this: http://amasci.com/miscon/speed.html

The author doesn't go as deep into this subject as the links provided by Grumpy but you should find it as good starting information.

BEP
   
img  Loner
Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #54 on: 2010-11-30, 08:50:13 »
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This is great.  I appreciate all this info, more than I can say, as much confirms what I have thought, and even better, proves several things I had thought are incorrect.  (Final Meaning, I am actually learning.  This is a good thing....)

A point of interest, as there is SO much here that interests me.  I believe that someone stated (Grumpy?) that a displacement current (I think the real reference was to polarization current...) can "Induce" a magnetic field.  If this is true, and I actually am "Beginning" to believe this, the the Quest for OU would actually be over.  That may sound like a "Arrogant" statement, but I cannot see any reason to question it.  IF I can induce a magnetic field from ONLY a displacement current, then I can obtain a conduction current from a displacement current.  Directly!  I assume all the readers here fully understand that, but no-one is saying it.

As an example, a properly timed pulse fed into coil at the exact rate so as to prevent conduction current, will still have the displacement current associated with it.  (OK, two coils, one delayed with good reflection determining freq, etc.)  If this coil setup has a separate coil around it, either isolated from the first by a standing mag field, or biased to prevent interaction, then this coil should have standard conduction current induced into it.  (I realize the problem of reverse induction, but that could be used to help cancel the initial, undesired conduction.  If you see what I mean...)

Is there anything wrong with the above statement?  I realize that the methods in the example are crude, to say the least, but even so, with work and a lot of tuning, that should work as a "Proof of Concept".

Does anyone think that is worth a try?  I never looked at it from this exact perspective before....  I think I would need a lot of help in determining the physical nature of the coil.  (I could pull out the books, but that takes a LOT of desire on my part to actually do.  I can be very lazy at times.)

I MUST now re-read all the papers again, with this concept in mind.  Give me a few days to process.  Thanks very much!

P.S.  This also forces me to disagree with Hendershot.  I have this "Feeling" that the caps inside the coils are making use out of this very concept and that his units were NOT simply powered by the earth's mag field.  Any thoughts on that would also be appreciated.  (Be a heck of a way to hide something in plain sight, wouldn't it.  The designer might not even know...)
   
img  poynt99
Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #55 on: 2010-11-30, 13:26:19 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: Loner on 2010-11-30, 08:50:13
As an example, a properly timed pulse fed into coil at the exact rate so as to prevent conduction current, will still have the displacement current associated with it.  (OK, two coils, one delayed with good reflection determining freq, etc.)  

Hi Art.

How would you avoid the inevitable rise in conduction current at the flick of the switch?

Conduction current can never be completely halted, but maybe the trick is to tip the balance in favour of the displacement current (DI)? If the coil is wound to maximize inter-winding and stray capacitance (i.e. place a grounded sheath around a tightly-wound solenoid [delay coil]), and hit the coil with fast leading and trailing edges, you just might succeed in obtaining substantially higher DI than the conduction current (CI).

Then what?

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #56 on: 2010-11-30, 15:16:47 »

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This si similar to what Eric Dollard says about the Tesla Magnifier (based on Eric's actual experiments with it) which creates an extremely large displacement current.

Someone was kind enough to scan a copy of his book:

http://www.magergy.com/documents/Energy%20Ebooks/Condensed%20intro%20to%20Tesla%20Transformers%20by%20Eric%20Dollard.pdf
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #57 on: 2010-11-30, 16:13:22 »

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Quote from: Loner on 2010-11-30, 08:50:13
This is great.  I appreciate all this info, more than I can say, as much confirms what I have thought, and even better, proves several things I had thought are incorrect.  (Final Meaning, I am actually learning.  This is a good thing....)

A point of interest, as there is SO much here that interests me.  I believe that someone stated (Grumpy?) that a displacement current (I think the real reference was to polarization current...) can "Induce" a magnetic field.  If this is true, and I actually am "Beginning" to believe this, the the Quest for OU would actually be over.  That may sound like a "Arrogant" statement, but I cannot see any reason to question it.  IF I can induce a magnetic field from ONLY a displacement current, then I can obtain a conduction current from a displacement current.  Directly!  I assume all the readers here fully understand that, but no-one is saying it.

As an example, a properly timed pulse fed into coil at the exact rate so as to prevent conduction current, will still have the displacement current associated with it.  (OK, two coils, one delayed with good reflection determining freq, etc.)  If this coil setup has a separate coil around it, either isolated from the first by a standing mag field, or biased to prevent interaction, then this coil should have standard conduction current induced into it.  (I realize the problem of reverse induction, but that could be used to help cancel the initial, undesired conduction.  If you see what I mean...)

Is there anything wrong with the above statement?  I realize that the methods in the example are crude, to say the least, but even so, with work and a lot of tuning, that should work as a "Proof of Concept".

Does anyone think that is worth a try?  I never looked at it from this exact perspective before....  I think I would need a lot of help in determining the physical nature of the coil.  (I could pull out the books, but that takes a LOT of desire on my part to actually do.  I can be very lazy at times.)

I MUST now re-read all the papers again, with this concept in mind.  Give me a few days to process.  Thanks very much!

P.S.  This also forces me to disagree with Hendershot.  I have this "Feeling" that the caps inside the coils are making use out of this very concept and that his units were NOT simply powered by the earth's mag field.  Any thoughts on that would also be appreciated.  (Be a heck of a way to hide something in plain sight, wouldn't it.  The designer might not even know...)

EUREKA !!!

Hendershot looks similar to Aspden's dual concentric capacitors and both have AC output.

Now, if you can move the displacement current in a circle, hint hint, then you can get a DC output rather than AC (oscillation).  Keep in mind that the displacement current is in the field outside a coil of wire, so a coil of wire in a circle, a toroid, is positioned to allow the dispalcement current to move in a circle.   You displacement current moving in a circle meets two of the requirements for induction per Willie Johnson (analytical chemist who developed Gyroscopic Force Theory).  You also need a force perpendicular to the rotating displacement current, such as gravity or a static magnetic field.
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #58 on: 2010-11-30, 16:33:17 »

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(Grumpy carefully exchanges the Two of Clubs in his hand for the Ace of Spades up his sleeve...)

Abstract
According to Maxwell’s theory, the displacement current in vacuum can produce
electromotive force on conducting current. However, the displacement current in
vacuum does not experience electromotive force from conducting current. The
asymmetrical electromotive forces result in non-conserved energy transmission between
any two coils involving displacement current and conducting current. In this work, we
designed and performed the measurements for such effect. We observed the explicit
evidences of non-conserved energy transmission between a toroid solenoid and a
parallel plate capacitor. The measured energy increase is well predicted by the
numerical estimation.


The Pièce de résistance:

Conclusion

Our experimental results indicated explicitly that the energy is not conserved through the
coupling of a toroidal solenoid and a parallel plate capacitor. In general, the effect of
energy non-conservation exists in any system of two circuits if one of them contains a
piece of displacement current.
   
img  ion
Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #59 on: 2010-11-30, 17:40:02 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Very interesting reading G, seems like a hot trail to pursue. Very timely and in conjunction with my recent thinking.

Only one reference given in the paper....anyone able to find it?



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img  Peterae
Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #60 on: 2010-11-30, 18:09:39 »

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Buy me some coffee
I have a torrent link for
Feynman Lectures on Physics :
Feynman Lectures on Physics Volumes 1,2,3 - Feynman, Leighton and Sands

but better not post it here, so if anyone wants it PM me  ;)
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #61 on: 2010-11-30, 18:20:21 »

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that is just a reference for the resonance of the circuit:

See atteched and:

http://web.cc.uoa.gr/~pji/Feynman%20Physics%20Lectures%20V1%20Ch23%201962-01-26%20Resonance.pdf

Interesting that there are no other references.


In the article they state:

The total electromotive force along the capacitor circuit equals to the integral of the electromotive force along the gap, which is not zero. In this case, the electromotive forces between the toroidal solenoid and the parallel plate capacitor are not equal. The current in the capacitor circuit can be pumped by the electromotive force from the toroidal solenoid. In the mean time, the capacitor circuit cannot pump the current in the toroidal solenoid.  Therefore, the energy in this system is not conserved.

There was an additional electromotive force E21 from the circuit 1 to the circuit 2.

The increased power in the circuit 2 is purely induced by the electromotive force from the circuit 1.

The induced current I21 is orthogonal to the induced current I20.

The consumed power in the circuit 2 was increased to (9.7±0.2) ×10-8 Watt. The consumed power in the circuit 2 was increased by 4.0×10-8 Watt.

In general, the effect of energy non-conservation exists in any system of two circuits if one of them contains a piece of displacement current.



What are they saying in layman's terms?
   
img  BEP
Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #62 on: 2010-11-30, 18:36:00 »
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Hmmm....

Position of the small toroids within a TPU?

Construction of the small toroids?

Reasons for placing the control circuitry witin the TPU?

Why two sets of flat conductor bands appear in the TPU cutaway (not easy to see but I see them).

Possibly the only method where system resonance(entrained resonance) could result in an actual overall energy increase?

more?
   
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Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #63 on: 2010-11-30, 18:40:19 »

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My head is spinning!  Hit me again!
   
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Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #64 on: 2010-11-30, 18:56:49 »
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http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=355.0

My cards are on the table and have been. Theories of ENC are not new. I just call them NCE.

No, I don't think I have all and maybe not the correct answers.

WW

P.S.

Surely you have a pic of the TPU cutaway. Look near the top and bottom internal edges of the ellipse. One has two bands in a vertical orientation and the other has two in the horizontal.
   
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Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #65 on: 2010-11-30, 19:14:34 »

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hard to say
   
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Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #66 on: 2010-11-30, 19:24:09 »

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Are they saying that the amount of displacement current determines the amount of power in a circuit?

Would that mean the in a DC circuit, the amount of dispalcement current that occurs at the intial establishment of the circuit determines the amount of power in the circuit?

A rotating displacement current, would be a very powerful power source.  It would be cummulative, adjustable with higher velocity providing more output - limited by the controls and materials.

Holy Crap!
   
img  BEP
Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #67 on: 2010-11-30, 19:33:10 »
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I think so.

I suspect the conductor in the tube coil of the TK device uses the same basic idea.

A combination C and L with matching SRF driven near or at that SRF. What would we have if we had an -L-C tank circuit?

The only real difference is the TK device is most probably A.C. output as opposed to the D.C. output of the TPU. The D.C. is achieved by reversing the inductive side turn direction mid-way to create the difference of potential, aka. Positive and Negative.
   
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Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #68 on: 2010-11-30, 19:42:27 »
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New thought...

If all these wild ideas amount to anything we have a new term:

L= Constant Current
C= Constant Voltage

-L-C = Constant Power

Yes. It could be dangerous  :D
   
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Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #69 on: 2010-11-30, 20:35:43 »

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It looks like everyone participating here agrees that displacement current exist.

Attached is "why" you need HV short pulses to get high dispalcement current density.

(Plug in 10000 V/m and .000000001 S (1 ns) and you get a pretty big current density.)
   
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Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #70 on: 2010-11-30, 20:46:14 »

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Further searching along the lines of "vacuum displacement current" leads to Bibhas De's "companion wave".

So, is "radiant electricity" nothing more than a vacuum displacement current? 
   
img  ion
Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #71 on: 2010-11-30, 20:53:18 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Once the DI is established  with a high current nanosecond spike in a current loop, it would only be necessary to grab it and drag it around the loop to establish further current flow.

Now how do we do that? Using electrostatic plates that are also pulsed?

So the loop must be maintained, making it a very low impedance machine, with 180 degree pick off points around the loop. This would account for the overheating effect since the loop must sustain 10x or more current flow than what is allowed to be picked off the loop.



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Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #72 on: 2010-11-30, 21:15:22 »

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Quote from: ION on 2010-11-30, 20:53:18
Once the DI is established  with a high current nanosecond spike in a current loop, it would only be necessary to grab it and drag it around the loop to establish further current flow.

Now how do we do that? Using electrostatic plates that are also pulsed?

So the loop must be maintained, making it a very low impedance machine, with 180 degree pick off points around the loop. This would account for the overheating effect since the loop must sustain 10x or more current flow than what is allowed to be picked off the loop.



Wouldn't the plates have to be the same or higher voltage as the coil to grab all of the DI?

Aspden's concentric caps make it move one increment per pulse, so what if you pulsed them with DC pulses only rather than his AC? 

Would you need something to hold the DI state between pulses?

Does DI current result in heat?  It is not ionic, so where is the resistnce?
   
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Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #73 on: 2010-11-30, 21:51:07 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-11-30, 21:15:22
Wouldn't the plates have to be the same or higher voltage as the coil to grab all of the DI?

Aspden's concentric caps make it move one increment per pulse, so what if you pulsed them with DC pulses only rather than his AC?  

Would you need something to hold the DI state between pulses?

Does DI current result in heat?  It is not ionic, so where is the resistnce?

I'm not sure how you could grab the DI once it is established, again I'm guessing an electrostatic field around the wire might do it.

I don't have the answer to all those questions, but my guess is the heating occurs in the copper from the accelerated drift velocity of the electrons. The resistance is the normal ohmic resistance of the copper loop, the heating a product of electron collisions with the metal lattice atoms.

I attempted an answer because I thought the question was directed at me. You might want to pose the question to the others that already seem to know the answers, but aren't telling.


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Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #74 on: 2010-12-01, 00:20:06 »

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What sort of dispalcement current do you get when you pulse a coil with a whole lot of turns?

The pulse enters the coil and then interacts with the other turns as it propagates along the wire.  Lots and lots of turns is lots and lots of interaction and induced dispalcement current in all of the turns.  The whole coil comes alive with each pulse.

Unless I'm way off, a coil of many turns will produce a lot of displacement current.

You can't rotate a field with one coil like this since the whole thing is active at once, but you could sequence a ring of them.
   
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