Displacement Current - Does it Exist?

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Author Topic: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? (Read 139863 times)

BEP	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #25 on: 2010-03-24, 22:20:12 »
Group: Guest	If you could remove it then I expect there would be no ability to store or conduct charge. ~~It would be a short circuit.~~ It wouldn't be a short circuit. There just wouldn't be any potential. On the Leyden jar video.... I wonder if they ever tried moving all capacitor components to a different location before reassembly. Or, replacing the glass jar before reassembly? Or, checking the glass for a static electric charge before assembly? Might be interesting.... « Last Edit: 2010-03-24, 23:43:40 by WaveWatcher »

poynt99	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #26 on: 2010-03-25, 02:22:04 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Guys, I think you kinda missed the boat on this. Quote What if you removed the dielectric? Would there still be a capacitor or TL? Thinking that there can be no capacitor (or TL) without a dielectric, is like saying you can not have an inductor without a ferro-magnetic core within it. Of course you can remove the dielectric! ...and for all intents and purposes, we do. Air-capacitors, and vacuum capacitors have no dielectric. There is very little difference in terms of the dielectric constant in each (1.00059 vs. 1.00000 respectively). A dielectric constant of 1.00000 means no dielectric is present. Look at the Equation for capacitance: *C = ε_rε₀ A/d** where ε_r is relative permittivity (introduced by a dielectric), ε₀ is vacuum permittivity, A is area between the plates, and d is the plate separation. In vacuo, ε_r = 1. This means that C is a non-zero value even without a dielectric. The answer to the question then, is a resounding YES. .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

BEP	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #27 on: 2010-03-25, 02:52:26 »
Group: Guest	And if you change that '1' to a zero? That is a comparison variable, not an actual quantity. If I was to remove the plastic or mica sheet from between the plates or even the air.... Yes. Sorry, I don't think in terms of common values for many things.... including dielectric. Dielectric is space or insulating material occupying that space. When you ask 'what happens when you remove the dielectric?' The answer is there will be no potential because there is no space between the plates. It goes from an unterminated TL to a terminated TL So, using common understanding... you can't remove the dielectric. The lowest possible value is '1'. I didn't miss the boat. I just got off of it Monday night

poynt99	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #28 on: 2010-03-25, 03:11:07 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	ε_r is a unitless multiplier. The lowest possible value is indeed 1.0, which in terms of having any influence on the "baseline" permittivity ε₀, it is zero. The equation for capacitance is valid when ε_r=1. The point of the question was not to eliminate the vacuum or space, but rather to contemplate what fills that vacuum/space, and how it influences the amount of capacitance, and whether any remains at all when there is no dielectric present. .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

BEP	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #29 on: 2010-03-25, 03:37:14 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2010-03-25, 03:11:07 but rather to contemplate what fills that vacuum/space Understood. So I have been contemplating it for a very long time. Many will have an answer for what fills that space of abosolute and total vacuum. I don't have an answer I can prove. My answer is there is no such thing as 'point charge'. Potential is just a variation of charge density measured between two points. Charge is contiguous, space and vacuum be damned. The measured potential is no different than measuring water pressure difference between the leading and trailing edges of a rudder on a moving boat. Unfortunately, we can't see the movement of our rudder in the water because we are on the boat - in the same frame of reference as the rudder. Feeling kind of rudderless right now. Will sleep on it.

Grumpy	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #30 on: 2010-03-25, 12:18:08 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: poynt99 on 2010-03-25, 03:11:07 ε_r is a unitless multiplier. The lowest possible value is indeed 1.0, which in terms of having any influence on the "baseline" permittivity ε₀, it is zero. The equation for capacitance is valid when ε_r=1. The point of the question was not to eliminate the vacuum or space, but rather to contemplate what fills that vacuum/space, and how it influences the amount of capacitance, and whether any remains at all when there is no dielectric present. .99 Tesla stated that the aether was composed of: “carriers immersed in an insulating fluid” maybe the only difference between a condutor and dielectric is the balance between carriers and insulators from wikipedia: Classification of materials Materials can be classified according to their permittivity and conductivity, σ. Materials with a large amount of loss inhibit the propagation of electromagnetic waves. In this case, generally when σ/(ωε) >> 1, we consider the material to be a good conductor. Dielectrics are associated with lossless or low-loss materials, where σ/(ωε) << 1. Those that do not fall under either limit are considered to be general media. A perfect dielectric is a material that has no conductivity, thus exhibiting only a displacement current. Therefore it stores and returns electrical energy as if it were an ideal capacitor. the baseline state of the aether, vacuum, or "empty space" is a dielectric, but you can alter it and change it's properties.

poynt99	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #31 on: 2010-03-25, 12:36:06 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-03-25, 12:18:08 the baseline state of the aether, vacuum, or "empty space" is a dielectric, but you can alter it and change it's properties. If you are saying that ε₀ is a dielectric, then I would have to disagree. In an air-core inductor, is the "air" a core? ε₀ and µ₀ are physical constants derived from the relationships and interactions between electric charges and currents. They are not dielectrics or cores which affect capacitors and inductors. .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

poynt99	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #32 on: 2010-03-25, 13:41:20 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	I might add: Not counting any physical aspects, the quantity of inductance and capacitance are affected only by the characteristics of permeability and permittivity (respectively) in and around the elements. Each characteristic has a baseline constant; µ₀ and ε₀. Dielectrics and cores are physical objects that increase (by multiplication factor) ε₀ and µ₀, but they are not the characteristics themselves. As such by definition, they can be completely removed. An air-core inductor therefore has a µ_r=1 and effectively has no core. An air or vacuum capacitor is no exception (ε_r=1), and therefore has no dielectric. .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Grumpy	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #33 on: 2010-03-25, 15:05:39 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_permittivity Quote The name "electric constant" avoids the suggestion that ε0, which is a derived quantity based upon the defined values of c0 and μ0 as indicated above, is a "property" of anything physical. Vacuum energy density is not "constant" either, by the way.

poynt99	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #34 on: 2010-03-25, 21:39:51 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	If I read you correctly, you're now supporting what I've been saying. It's certainly not complicated, and it makes perfect sense. .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Grumpy	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #35 on: 2010-03-25, 22:21:35 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: poynt99 on 2010-03-25, 21:39:51 If I read you correctly, you're now supporting what I've been saying. It's certainly not complicated, and it makes perfect sense. .99 yes, I am agreeing with you. is a moving region of space with high permittivity the same as a moving dielectric material? I believe it is.

BEP	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #36 on: 2010-03-25, 23:09:00 »
Group: Guest	.99 I will also say I'm agreeing with you. I should have narrowed my comments to the classic. However, on my bench the space between the plates is a dielectric and an air-core coil has a core. The value is '1' but it is still there. Isn't dielectric of '1' considered as air at 20 deg. C? Air does get colder, here anyway. And the number goes up as temperature increases for most materials. I would presume that the factor heads for infinity for space truly empty (no aether/dark matter/etc.). I'll not pursue the number as without it all the other numbers would need to be changed.

szaxx	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #37 on: 2010-03-25, 23:50:13 »
Sr. Member Posts: 276	Greetings All, Assuming the ether is constant, the speed of light would never change, period. A brave assumption. Well the bent stick effect (refraction) has just destroyed that now hasn't it? A simple statement followed by a fact. Therefore how much does 'c' change. Assuming that 'c' can change, wouldn't it be nice to have control of this as a function in some device. OU would awaken. The problem with all of this is someone has to make a valid statement/assumption that NO-ONE can disprove. The problem with that is, are we educated sufficiently to disprove it in the first place. Now if there ever existed a 3d point of etherless void, it would transmit absolutely nothing.... when we see nothing, its black. problem here 'we see' is a relatively weak point as seeing with your eyes totals an almost insignificant speck on the EMF spectrum complete. Thinking on a etherless void, if it was ever produced, we can assume that nothing would escape from it (EMF) but think on energy entering it. would it offer total reflection as an open cct TL? if so then the black assumption has gone....its a perfect mirror. If total absorbtion then energy gone forever...WHERE? Would it have its own time line? From one assumption we now have a 'collection of ideas'. To interpret all this and remain coherent requires the kind of mind required for OU. Given all the mis-info to date there will be a fact discovered within. Ok on cooper pairs ..anti this.....on it goes... If a guy said 'Ive made a device that puts out an energy field in a given direction', the first thought may be 'has he done it?' The thought required for OU would be 'Oh dear another one with a magnet. If ethers density could be changed then energy presented 'within' this change, its 'value' would change if the ether returned to 'normal' values. Isn't OU fun! Food for thought or insanity.... Steve.

BEP	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #38 on: 2010-03-26, 00:33:33 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: szaxx on 2010-03-25, 23:50:13 Food for thought or insanity.... Einstein was right about one thing.... It IS all relative

Grumpy	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #39 on: 2010-03-26, 03:19:17 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Well, you CAN have a current in a dielectric which produces a magnetic field same as a current in a conductor. See the Rowland, Roentgen, Wilson section on my bench.

szaxx	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #40 on: 2010-03-27, 03:37:55 »
Sr. Member Posts: 276	Grumps and All, First, If say we made a dilectric disc and electrically charged half of it with positive and the other negative. Spinning this disc in free space, would it impart an alternating magnetic field? I think we can safely assume it WOULD impart an alternating electric field and as these two are characteristic components of EMF, then assuming the latter would cause the question first asked to be rhetorical. The next one. Does a permanent magnet have no surrounding electric field, does the electric field in a charged capacitor have any magnetism? If detecting this involves movement of the field sensor, then the experiment fails, if the fixed fields themselves diminish then they are (effectively) moving, both indicating a failiure but if this is done for the first time ever in history, think about the errors that can creep in to disrupt physics. How many different theories are still being argued over from the 1800's? The biggy, If we connect a permanent magnet to a previously charged disc (as first question) what then? Anyone tried this??? magnetic/electric dilectric. The read from Grumps opens up more doors to what we don't know than where we were before reading. OU is real, it has to be, after all the universe is infinite, isn't it? you can't agree with one without the other. The more we learn the less we know! That is definately no understatement. Put your answers here and see if they differ much. To beat this we need to act as one Outside the box away from convention. Thought training tidbits Steve.

Grumpy	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #41 on: 2010-03-29, 14:49:09 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: szaxx on 2010-03-27, 03:37:55 Grumps and All, First, If say we made a dilectric disc and electrically charged half of it with positive and the other negative. Spinning this disc in free space, would it impart an alternating magnetic field? I think we can safely assume it WOULD impart an alternating electric field and as these two are characteristic components of EMF, then assuming the latter would cause the question first asked to be rhetorical. The next one. Does a permanent magnet have no surrounding electric field, does the electric field in a charged capacitor have any magnetism? If detecting this involves movement of the field sensor, then the experiment fails, if the fixed fields themselves diminish then they are (effectively) moving, both indicating a failiure but if this is done for the first time ever in history, think about the errors that can creep in to disrupt physics. How many different theories are still being argued over from the 1800's? The biggy, If we connect a permanent magnet to a previously charged disc (as first question) what then? Anyone tried this??? magnetic/electric dilectric. The read from Grumps opens up more doors to what we don't know than where we were before reading. OU is real, it has to be, after all the universe is infinite, isn't it? you can't agree with one without the other. The more we learn the less we know! That is definately no understatement. Put your answers here and see if they differ much. To beat this we need to act as one Outside the box away from convention. Thought training tidbits Steve. Röntgen used split plates, which is one way to charge the halves of a dielectric like you suggest. See page 6: http://bjr.birjournals.org/cgi/reprint/70/836/809.pdf The first experiment, shown in figure 7, I believe is a clue to the operation of the TPU. Since virtual charges produce a magnetic field, they are also capable of induction. (By the way, they claim to show displacement current in the second experiement in this paper.) If you look at the Wilson Effect, you will see that you can produce a continuously restored charge on capacitor plates by placing them perpendicular to a magnetic field and rotating a dielectric between the plates. -------------------------------------------- The electric field of a perm magnet resides within the magnet. The magneitc field resides in space, which happens to be a dielectric that has some permeability. If you rotate the vaccum of space, you are rotating a dielectric.

Grumpy	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #42 on: 2010-03-30, 19:53:29 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	A very interesting thesis: http://books.google.com/books?id=-8I7AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=rendtorff+vortex&hl=en&ei=DkSyS7XkFomyswOLqcHcBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false (There shold be a PDF link in the upper right corner. Print odd pages as even pages are blank.) Displacement current is in the direction of the wave front - same axis as the vortex tube...hmm An excerpt: Quote From all our previous deductions it follows that the fundamental basis of electricity is the ether vortex tube whose motion through space produces a certain so called magnetic effect, or force, perpedicular to itself and its direction of motion. When the vortices enter substances having a certain permeability (better called polarization resistance) their motion through that medium is retarded and the kinetic energy of the magnet is increased. According to equation (20) there can be no dynamical tubes of magetic force but merely a plane of the resulting effect due to the motion of the dynamical ether votices.

Grumpy	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #43 on: 2010-03-31, 14:02:18 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Reading Rendtorff's Thesis, he says that two waves have to be timed so that the ether is curled back on itself to cause the ether vortex, which appears to be synonymous with the cavitation requirement that "TheBuzz" spoke of. Spherics mentioned a timed overlap of pulses. Tesla explained his magnifier with standing waves - waves in both directions. In SM's TPU, both waves are moving in the same direction but one is delayed.

Grumpy	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #44 on: 2010-03-31, 23:25:38 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Explosive shock waves produce displacement currents in dielectrics: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=AD400706&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

Grumpy	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #45 on: 2010-03-31, 23:40:49 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-03-30, 19:53:29 A very interesting thesis: http://books.google.com/books?id=-8I7AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=rendtorff+vortex&hl=en&ei=DkSyS7XkFomyswOLqcHcBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false (There shold be a PDF link in the upper right corner. Print odd pages as even pages are blank.) ... Look over pages 37, 38, and 39 this is the ether wave, Tesla's RE, which can be seen as an oscillation

Grumpy	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #46 on: 2010-04-01, 15:17:59 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Looking up Birefringence, or double refraction, and we see that one way to create birefringence is: "Applying a magnetic field can cause a material to be circularly birefringent, with different indices of refraction for oppositely-handed circular polarizations" Not sure if this leads to anything, but it is interesting...a magnetic field makes space "directional"

szaxx	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #47 on: 2010-04-01, 18:58:16 »
Sr. Member Posts: 276	Hi Grumps, As ever, supplying interesting relevant info in connection with the enigma, answers we all search for..... I will eventually read all (most) of it and comment.... A little busy at present Displacing a charge or relocating a charge....sort of dilectric related.....Van De Graaf Charging system. An electric belt. lol steve

BEP	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #48 on: 2010-04-02, 03:42:45 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-04-01, 15:17:59 Looking up Birefringence, or double refraction, and we see that one way to create birefringence is: "Applying a magnetic field can cause a material to be circularly birefringent, with different indices of refraction for oppositely-handed circular polarizations" Not sure if this leads to anything, but it is interesting...a magnetic field makes space "directional" Hmmm..... Sure works well on magneto-optical drives

Grumpy	Re: Displacement Current - Does it Exist? « Reply #49 on: 2010-11-30, 00:41:31 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	CONDUCTION AND DISPLACEMENT CURRENTS IN CAPACITORS J.Edwards School of Electrical and Electronic Systems Engineering Queensland University Of Technology Even the most basic electrical devices rely upon electromagnetic wave propagation and associated displacement currents to establish conductor currents. These electromagnetic waves required to change device currents propagate mainly in the insulating medium of the device between its conductors, and the associated displacement currents play a prominent part in establishing the conductor conduction currents. In the case of capacitors the conductor current is established by displacement currents in the insulating dielectric medium, as the electromagnetic waves travel in and out of the capacitor due to reflections off its intrinsic open circuit termination. Displacement currents should always be associated with electromagnetic wave propagation, even in the simple case of lumped circuit capacitors. This will be emphasised by considering how electromagnetic waves and associated displacement currents take a very active part in the charging of parallel plate capacitors. http://www.itee.uq.edu.au/~aupec/aupec04/papers/PaperID84.pdf Diffusion of Current Into Conductors http://espace.library.uq.edu.au/eserv/UQ:9792/saha-edwards-aup.pdf

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