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Author Topic: Displacement Current - Does it Exist?  (Read 139866 times)
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Grumpy, that was part of something I asked before.  I have made a couple "obvious" realizations since then.

When I mentioned an MT, I was not implying to use the "Ground", NOR the top load cap.  Both are not required nor desired, in this instance.  If you can generate a charge field, and feed this into one end of a coil, leaving the other end OPEN, then there is "NO SOURCE" for any standard conduction current, but the Field will still propagate to the end.  This is actually the basis for certain advanced, but not well known, Tesla circuits, and that's actually where some of this concept comes from.  This is also seems to be where the big argument between Tesla and Hertz seems to be based, as this IS NOT an antenna, but RF people wouldn't accept that fact.  I am, right now, learning how to work with this type of "Charge", as I don't seem to be able to find an accurate reference anywhere.  (Effects, ect. are not even fully documented.  Certainly helps explain how a small flat coil with one wire can be useful....)

If I could get this to move a charge field up a long coil, then I am 9/10ths there.  Arranging a coil around a torrid would do it, and only a single phase would be required.  Actually, I agree with something you mentioned a while back, just a straight coil would do, for verifying the effect.  The problem would come in with what externals have an effect, as I'm sure there will be leakage, etc. and where the charge will go upon disconnecting the  source, as it must go somewhere.  I am also quite concerned as to what happens when the charge hits the end of the wire of the coil, as it's far too easy for me to get one heck of a HV spark from there, which screws up the whole thing, as now I have introduced standard current, again.  (I've said this too many times, without understanding what I was really saying.  "Pesky electron flow!")  Adding ANY component to the end of the coil would be VERY detrimental, so I need to do a LOT more work here, but the plan is simple, as are the tests I am running.  It's just that this is very new for me to be able to actually work with an electric charge field, and be able to see a result.  Very steep learning curve, as I am just beginning to really understand how electrical charge fields work...  (In my own mind, that is.  Theory is one thing, practical experience working with real physical fields is another.)   It's hard to get out of the "Reference" mode that I am so used to working with.  Hard to reference what charge level is there as there seem to be dynamics in this stuff I never considered when just "Thinking" about it.

If I can induce a conventional current from an electrical field movement, I'll let you know, as I am only to the point of trying to do just what you asked.  MOVE a field down a coil (Easy, now...) and get that to DO something in a conventional sense.  (Not so easy without falling back to allowing conventional current, which defeats the purpose, at this point.)  If that occurs, and I can define the effect, even if inaccurately, I can then post such here, and I'm sure others will be able to fill in the blanks a lot quicker than I could.  I begin to question if this is the actual TPU method, or if this is just the beginning thought, or, maybe this is the "Real" method, and a lot of mis-information went on.  That's all guesswork for now.  Actually, unless we see an original TPU, we would never know for sure, assuming any of this works, anyway.

I like the idea of inducing a field (Magnetic?) at 90 degrees, as if the first part works, pumping the resultant current througjh the center actually produces a 90 degree relationship to the charge field going down the coil, if the center just goes straight.  This would be an automatic regulation as the more current drawn, the greater the field, etc.  Excellent thought.  Of course, I'm going very slow and that part must wait till I can see if the first part actually functions.  Be assured, I won't forget it.

I would really feel great if this led to me actually posting something useful, with actual test data to back it up.  THAT would be a post I could be proud of.  (Which means, it will probably never happen, but I have to keep at this.  It's become an obsession.  This is when I do my best work, sometimes, as long as I remember to eat and sleep and things like that.)  Gotta go play.  Oh yeah, food...
   

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tExB=qr
Look at an impulse excited coil like a capacitor in which the plates are getting closer as the field is gaining magnitude  (during the pulse rise).

Sketch it on a napkin - show a series of three different images each a little further in time - see how the electric field lines change?  They are moving out away from the coil in all directions. 

Now, since we left Kansas, and Oz is a magical place, let's imagine that we move those plates so fast that the electric field experiences a shock wave. 

What happens to the electric field? Is it fractured into thousands of little pieces pieces. 

Electric field lines have to terminate on a particle and can not loop.  What if they terminate on virtual (or real) ions ripped from the Dirac Sea? 

Are they virtual electric fields running rampant?
   
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whew!   Sorry Grumpy, you lost me.  Brain overload, I guess.

I will assemble that, but certain local situations have taken too much of my concentration and the entire train of though has derailed.  I will get back on track and contemplate this, but only when I can really give it some true thought.  Must be getting old........
   

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Can displacement current be used as a form of induction?  If so, we might expect somewhat anomalous charging in nearby dielectrics from a rapidly discharging capacitor.

Also Grumpy answering a more recent question regarding charge distribution within a dielectric: 'Diffusion of Current Into Conductors':  https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=79.msg7174#msg7174


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tExB=qr
Can displacement current be used as a form of induction?  If so, we might expect somewhat anomalous charging in nearby dielectrics from a rapidly discharging capacitor.

Also Grumpy answering a more recent question regarding charge distribution within a dielectric: 'Diffusion of Current Into Conductors':  https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=79.msg7174#msg7174

Topic: Rowland, Röntgen, Wilson, Eichenwald, Nipher, Trouton, Noble, Barnett, et al
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=43.msg283#msg283

Like I said in that thread: As I understand it, no transfer of kinetic energy without motion.

I believe these experiments indicate that if there is a space medium, and it can be moved, then we may achieve our goals of free energy, propulsion, and perhaps improved communication.

Rowland rotated the plates of a charged capacitor and produced a magnetic field.
Rontgen rotated the dielectric of a charged capacitor and produced a magnetic field.
Wilson rotated the dielectric of a capacitor perpendicular to a magnetic field and produced an electric field across the capacitor.
Eichenwald (as I recall) rotated an entire cylindrical capacitor (charged) and produced a magnetic field.

I don't recall exactly, but I think Barnett's experiment was a rotating solenoid concentric with a capacitor, and no current was deduced. This indicates that the magnetic field does not rotate with the solenoid.
(A quick search found a follow-up to this experiment that I have not read yet:)
https://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0512179

The AVEC device (from spherics) is supposed to rotate "space" (aether) [perpendicular to a magnetic field] and induce current sort of like a motionless homopolar generator.  I have it assembled now, but need to shorten the pulses considerably to reduce the current required.
   
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The current being a number of charges passing per second, a displacement current does not really exist in vacuum, because of the absence of charges, and in a dielectric partially, we will see why.

A current is the effect of coulombic influence between charges in a conductor: when electrons are added to the entrance of a conductor segment, their field causes other charges to move along the conductor by coulombic influence, and after delay, other charges leave the conductor segment. In AC mode, when the frequency is high, the electrons vibrate almost on the spot, the short time of displacement in one direction and the other not allowing them to cover a significant distance, their real speed being of the order of mm to cm/s.

If a circuit is opened, for example between the plates of a capacitor without dielectric, nothing changes: the electrons still influence each other, but through a greater distance than in the mesh of a conductor, that between the plates. This will obviously stop the DC current, and reduce the AC current if the frequency is low. But the electrons vibrating almost on the spot if the frequency is high, they will still be able to easily transmit their influence from one plate to another, and all the more so since a large number of them can accumulate on these plates, the larger and closer they are.

With a dielectric, it is always the same thing, except that the dipoles of the insulator, by orienting themselves in the field, will also transmit the coulombic influence from one plate to the other, facilitating it.
We are therefore dealing with a single effect in all cases (conductor, vacuum, dielectric): the propagation of the Coulombic influence.

The influence propagating through the vacuum or through a dielectric, it is equivalent to having a current that we will call displacement current, except that we cannot act on this current in the vacuum as we act on the one of the conductor, because the charges are only at the level of the plates, and that in all cases we act on charges, never on a current (for example by the Laplace force). The treatment of circuits with large gaps between capacitor plates complicates the calculations because the current is no longer of the wire type, it is necessary to take into account the spread of the coulombic field and the fact that the charges remain at the level of the plates. This is why we cannot hope to use the Laplace force to influence anything between the plates of a vacuum capacitor.

On the other hand, in a dielectric where we also have the so-called displacement current, the one linked to the influence of the charges between the plates and via the dipoles of the dielectric, it is theoretically possible since there are dipoles in the dielectric but in practice it is very limited because the effect is on both the positive and negative charges. The Laplace force, for example, is cancelled out. Only the effect on the charges of the dielectric seen as dipoles seems possible and seems interesting but very difficult to test.



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It's good etiquette to have some experimental data or papers to back-up assertions on a forum like this.  Or a falsifiable experiment.

Or at least for subjects that have historically had multiple theories/schools-of-thought.


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If this request is about what I wrote, it is surprising, since it is only the application of Coulomb's law, which is long proven, and there is no challenge of electromagnetism.
The charges are discrete, separated from each other and influence each other at a distance, but Maxwell's electromagnetism models their current as a continuous flow. So obviously the model indicates a current everywhere along a circuit, even in the space between influencing charges. What I am saying is only to put into perspective the reality of the charges, which are discrete and their average spacing more or less wide depending on the nature of the circuit, compared to the mathematical model where the current is a continuous flow. This does not call into question Maxwell's model, on the contrary!


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tExB=qr
As I  recall, a circular disc capacitor has a magnetic field that is a circle centered between the discs.

So, If I have an open pair of wires, like a long capacitor, and I wrap a solenoid around it, can I charge this wire capacitor with the magnetic field of the solenoid?
   
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...
So, If I have an open pair of wires, like a long capacitor, and I wrap a solenoid around it, can I charge this wire capacitor with the magnetic field of the solenoid?

Of course not. It's amazing how the way of talking makes we lose the thread of reasoning.

It is said that a capacitor is charged by a current or a voltage. But that's just a way of speaking. A capacitor is only charged with... charges! It is probably too obvious to be imagined :) .

So neither a displacement current, nor a fem induced by a variable magnetic field, can directly charge a capacitor. You need charges, which you have to take from somewhere else.



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As I  recall, a circular disc capacitor has a magnetic field that is a circle centered between the discs.

So, If I have an open pair of wires, like a long capacitor, and I wrap a solenoid around it, can I charge this wire capacitor with the magnetic field of the solenoid?

Also worth noting that a capacitor can also be 'charged' via relative physical motion, as in a Faraday unipolar generator.
You might call it a 'centrifugal charge displacement generator.'


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tExB=qr
Of course not. It's amazing how the way of talking makes we lose the thread of reasoning.

It is said that a capacitor is charged by a current or a voltage. But that's just a way of speaking. A capacitor is only charged with... charges! It is probably too obvious to be imagined :) .

So neither a displacement current, nor a fem induced by a variable magnetic field, can directly charge a capacitor. You need charges, which you have to take from somewhere else.

Armed with this assertion, we go back to Tesla's radiant energy sources:
https://teslaresearch.jimdofree.com/radiant-energy/

Tesla indicates that RE sources are "space", a Lenard Tube, and a spark gap with reflector.
We can conclude that these sources provide charged particles to charge the capacitor via the collector plates (other plate is ground).

Going back to the Brooks coil that "spherics" said will produce this same RE effect, when placed in a static magnetic field and pulsed with HV DC, we wonder if he was correct.

How can a Brooks coil of 28 AWG magnet wire, with a static magnetic field around it, pulsed with HV DC, produce charges that will charge the battery connected to the static coil, as well as capacitors placed near the coil?  Note that the battery and capacitor are not grounded.

Can we rule out any possible wave or field effects that might produce a charging effect?

Are there actually no particles and photons mediating the Coulomb field are responsible like a photoelectric effect?

This is very important.  Can we only be dealing with charges?

If we are, then we must determine how these charges are produced.

Do they come from the copper of the coil or the insulation? 

Are they pulled from space?





   
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...
We can conclude that these sources provide charged particles to charge the capacitor via the collector plates (other plate is ground).

Of course. Occam's razor. In the air there are ions, therefore charges, easily taken from high voltage conductors. These ions can charge a capacitor.

And also destroy remotely the input of a scope with its unconnected probes, this is what happened to me with my 50 KV power supply.

Quote
...
Can we rule out any possible wave or field effects that might produce a charging effect?
...

Yes we can :).



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Of course. Occam's razor. In the air there are ions, therefore charges, easily taken from high voltage conductors. These ions can charge a capacitor.

And also destroy remotely the input of a scope with its unconnected probes, this is what happened to me with my 50 KV power supply.

Yes we can :).

This is great!

Proceeding with RE is charged particles, and we keep producing these particles with repeated HV pulses.  We take these charged particles and rotate them in a circle, in a static magnetic field.  The moving particles align with the magnetic field.

This spinning cloud of charged particles, in a magnetic field is said to induce a significant current into a toroidal coil.

Is this because the particles go into the toroidal coil or a magnetic inductive effect from the moving particles?
   
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This spinning cloud of charged particles, in a magnetic field is said to induce a significant current into a toroidal coil.

Is this because the particles go into the toroidal coil or a magnetic inductive effect from the moving particles?

There can be many reasons. Capacitive influence with the winding, influence by magnetic leakage, or "normal" coupling with the torus if ions pass through the central hole.

The question is "what do we want to do with this?". The resistance of an ionic current in air is high, no hope of OU.

A few years ago I played around with my 50 KV power supply. I was using 2 conductors spaced far enough apart to avoid an arc. The two constituted a capacitor between whose plates the ionization of the air was important, and in series I had placed an inductor.
The ionization of the air not being a linear conductor, the system oscillated because of a negative dynamic resistance. By playing with C and L, I could get a signal up to 2 MHz, which I could receive on an AM radio. All this is fun and instructive, but not useful, we do much better with semiconductors!


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There can be many reasons. Capacitive influence with the winding, influence by magnetic leakage, or "normal" coupling with the torus if ions pass through the central hole.

The question is "what do we want to do with this?". The resistance of an ionic current in air is high, no hope of OU.

A few years ago I played around with my 50 KV power supply. I was using 2 conductors spaced far enough apart to avoid an arc. The two constituted a capacitor between whose plates the ionization of the air was important, and in series I had placed an inductor.
The ionization of the air not being a linear conductor, the system oscillated because of a negative dynamic resistance. By playing with C and L, I could get a signal up to 2 MHz, which I could receive on an AM radio. All this is fun and instructive, but not useful, we do much better with semiconductors!

Yes,, the rotating ions (very fast) are in the center of the toroid, and aligned with the static magnetic field.

The device that I have constructed is supposed to produce at least 2kw, so I don't think the ions are the current supply, but rather a means for inducing current.

The DC field determines the amount of induced current, and it is said that the device can explode if this DC field is suddenly lost.
   
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Yes,, the rotating ions (very fast) are in the center of the toroid, and aligned with the static magnetic field.

The device that I have constructed is supposed to produce at least 2kw, so I don't think the ions are the current supply, but rather a means for inducing current.

It's a hell of a job to make a setup of this size! O0
Note that the ions can't go faster than the air that carries them and that they drag. It can be faster than in a conductor, but still rather slow.

Quote
The DC field determines the amount of induced current, and it is said that the device can explode if this DC field is suddenly lost.

So I hope it will explode, you will be sure it works and that could convince me!  :)



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It's a hell of a job to make a setup of this size! O0
Note that the ions can't go faster than the air that carries them and that they drag. It can be faster than in a conductor, but still rather slow.

So I hope it will explode, you will be sure it works and that could convince me!  :)

The field has to rotate at a speed that is a factor of the speed of light and 6.

I believe this is faster than ions in air, so I wonder if the ions are along for the ride and the electric field is doing work. (?)
   
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The field has to rotate at a speed that is a factor of the speed of light and 6.

I believe this is faster than ions in air, so I wonder if the ions are along for the ride and the electric field is doing work. (?)

Ions in vacuum, with very reduced pressure, perhaps.

In air it is impossible, ions are molecules with more or less electrons, and they collide with each other and with other molecules, the air moves with them. It is thanks to this resistance of the air to the ions that the Naudin lifter worked.



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Ions in vacuum, with very reduced pressure, perhaps.

In air it is impossible, ions are molecules with more or less electrons, and they collide with each other and with other molecules, the air moves with them. It is thanks to this resistance of the air to the ions that the Naudin lifter worked.

Quite the conundrum...

There is a definite electric field around those coils.

Can a rotating electric field, perpendicular to a static magnetic field, induce a current?

Willie Johnson's GFT theory predicts that this is true.  That is where I got the tExB=qr equation in my signature. (Note that he uses quaternions extensively, and I am not mathematically inclined.)
   

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Topic: Induction in the GFT (Gyroscopic force Theory) Involving Scalar Fields

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2561.msg40498#msg40498
   
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F6FLT
Quote
Of course not. It's amazing how the way of talking makes we lose the thread of reasoning.
It is said that a capacitor is charged by a current or a voltage. But that's just a way of speaking. A capacitor is only charged with... charges! It is probably too obvious to be imagined :) .
So neither a displacement current, nor a fem induced by a variable magnetic field, can directly charge a capacitor. You need charges, which you have to take from somewhere else.

Agreed , here are some of the best explanations I have read which explain what charge is and how it works.

http://amasci.com/elect/charge1.html
WHAT IS "ELECTRIC CHARGE?", 1999 W. Beaty BSEE

http://amasci.com/miscon/whatis.html
What Is "Electricity"?, 1996 William J. Beaty

AC







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tExB=qr
F6FLT
Agreed , here are some of the best explanations I have read which explain what charge is and how it works.

http://amasci.com/elect/charge1.html
WHAT IS "ELECTRIC CHARGE?", 1999 W. Beaty BSEE

http://amasci.com/miscon/whatis.html
What Is "Electricity"?, 1996 William J. Beaty

AC

This was a conversation across multiple thread topics at the same time between F6 and myself.  It went very well.

It started as an attempt to determine what radiant energy in Tesla's patents is, and then determine if Spheric's coils produce the same thing as RE.
   
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Grumpy
Quote
This was a conversation across multiple thread topics at the same time between F6 and myself.  It went very well.
It started as an attempt to determine what radiant energy in Tesla's patents is, and then determine if Spheric's coils produce the same thing as RE.

Not unlike Bill Beaty's explanations for electricity/charge I found radiant energy is not a thing. Radiant Energy is a wide range of effects and phenomena relating to energy proceeding outward from a center ie. radially, to radiate, radiation. This is where most get confused in the same way they do about electricity, charge(s) and energy.

For example, we take a piece of wire and vary it's EM field periodically which can cause it to radiate EM energy which we call an antenna. Fair enough, now we take said antenna and explode it outward as millions of many smaller radiant antennas which also radiate energy as an EM field in that instance. However its problematic because our antenna is now fluid or particulate, each piece of material radiating EM energy but also radiating outward away from the source in every direction in itself. So... what is it?.

Obviously it's problematic when the supposedly physical thing radiating EM energy like an antenna starts physically changing in volume and radiating outward from the source in itself.

Imagine the conversation our mind is having...
Me: I just exploded the antenna.
Mind: You what?, wait, you can't do that.
Me: I just did.
Mind: But, but that creates too many variables, too many problems, too much work.
Me: I just did it anyways.
Mind: Whoa, what?, why do you have to be so difficult?, why change stuff because now I have to work for it?, why not make things easy?.
Me: I don't care, get off your ass and start doing your job, I want to know what is happening and why in every instance.

AC


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Grumpy
Not unlike Bill Beaty's explanations for electricity/charge I found radiant energy is not a thing. Radiant Energy is a wide range of effects and phenomena relating to energy proceeding outward from a center ie. radially, to radiate, radiation.
...

I agree. I wouldn't say it doesn't exist, it exists but it is confused with the energy of the classical electromagnetic fields E and B.
These fields have a density energy 1/2*B²/µ + 1/2*E²*ε.

They are found in two forms:

  • the near field, near the "radiating" conductors, which is a form captive to the source. The field builds and destroys itself at the rate of the signal period, constantly exchanging its energy with the current/voltage of the source. This field is not really "radiating" even if it is present at a distance of the order of the wavelength.
  • The truly radiant form, the electromagnetic wave, which is those near fields detaching themselves from the source and propagating away from it and independently of it, with the transverse E and H fields carrying energy away from the source, which begins to occur at a distance of the order of the wavelength.

There is a continuity between the two. This link that Grumpy presented elsewhere explains it well.

In proximity their effects are powerful, these fields induce currents in everything around them. Even with a 5W walkie-talkie I can crash my PC at 2 meters with certain frequencies. With 100W in an outdoor antenna, I turned off my old TV at 20 meters because its remote control circuit was impacted. A few km away from the European longwave transmitters (there are only 3 left), which had powers between 1 and 2 MW, people heard the radio in their stove by magnetostriction effect, or in their dental amalgams which made diode!

For a radio itechnician, the effects near a Tesla coil are extremely trivial and do not differ from what we have near a radio antenna. If at the time of Tesla, pioneer in the use of these powerful fields, one could be surprised by their effects, today it is really to indulge in a mythology to see anything other than what one sees near a radio antenna. I am not saying that a longitudinal wave with its own "radiant energy" is impossible, but if it exists it will be much more subtle and difficult to identify, because of a low intensity that has gone unnoticed until now and probably a decay in 1/r² instead of 1/r for an electromagnetic wave. No reason to imagine anything by this means to transmit significant energy at a distance, when we are not even able to detect the slightest effect today, except to confuse it, which I see everywhere, with a classical electric field, a magnetic field or a hertzian wave.



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