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Author Topic: Steorns December 2009 Demo  (Read 102192 times)

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
I might also add the following:

In the case of the normal pulse motor, we are virtually unlimited as to how much energy we can put in to the system and achieve a result on the output in the form of speed and/or torque increases (to a point of course). So we are "adding" energy to the system to achieve motive force.

In the case of the Orbo, we are starting with a fixed packet of energy, and to extract that energy to do work we need to "add" an equal and opposite (actually somewhat higher due to losses) amount of energy to the system. In this case, the rotor magnets are the fixed packets of energy. The coil cores determine how efficiently we can extract energy from those packets. The higher the mu, the higher this efficiency (notwithstanding saturation effects).

In effect, with the Orbo configuration we are subtracting energy from the system to make it work. Everything is inverted in a way. We start with an energy source and interaction that is always ON (the magnet/core attraction), and we need to be able to turn it OFF. Conventional pulse motors start with zero energy/no interaction, and we turn the energy ON to make it work.

.99
« Last Edit: 2010-03-01, 01:53:03 by poynt99 »


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Hi Chet, that device in the movie is very nicely made!

From the youtube description:
Quote
Overunity proving:
Imput power without load. 4 volt * 31mA = 0.124 watt. All the power is heat losses.
Imput power with load. 4 volt * 32 mA = 0,128 watt. Imput power increase with 0,004 watt.
The load is 7,72 volt * 2,99 mA = 0,023 watt. The Overunity is 0,023 - 0,004 = 0,019 watt
COP 4,8 ???

I think it should read:

Imput power with load. 4 volt * 32 mA = 0,128 watt
The load is 7,72 volt * 2,99 mA = 0,023 watt.

COP = 0.023 / 0.128 = 0.19
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Chet.

That video definitely does not demonstrate any degree of OU (as per Fraser's post), but it does demonstrate the no bemf effect, where the load does not affect the power draw.

Now, if he increased his voltage supply to recover the lost RPM, his power draw would increase accordingly. This does not mean that the power supply is the energy source that drives the rotor--the rotor magnets actually are.

I'm having difficulty getting MH and TK to see this, but in time maybe they will.

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
To revisit TK's question about the input/output energy parameters that should be measured for the comparison, here's another approach--one I would call the purist method:

1) Run the Orbo at your desired speed/power draw setting.

2) Have a sensitive prony break applied to the rotor and measure the torque.

3) Convert that torque measurement to an energy value and compare it to the battery energy draw.

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
In the end, it does not really matter where one thinks of as the source of energy for the Orbo motor (i.e the battery or the magnets), because up to a certain point, the energy value drawn is the same.

The only difference that needs to be kept in mind, is in the case of the Orbo, the maximum energy available to drive it is limited by the strength of the rotor magnets, and to a certain degree the core material/size.

Another way of thinking about the Orbo motor, is that it is an inefficient converter of permanent magnetic flux energy to torque energy.

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Thanks for the movie Critique fellas!

Guess thats why you guys get the "Big" bucs =-]

Chet
   
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lol, cheers Chet, :D

In the youtube vid he should also harvest the inductive kickback to increase COP.

I do agree though that the orbo is interesting because unlike a standard electromagnetic motor, increasing mech load does not show itself (much) in the input power. But I think it´s a case of "use it or lose it". As an analogy imagine a desk fan running on a desk, now take a small windmill and generator and place it a meter away and have it light a bulb. The fan will not see any more load but you have converted some system energy to do work. (I say I think this, I dont ¨know¨ though, perhaps it can go COP>1?)
   
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Fellas,
This "flick" has higher ratings
Courtesy of "Wings"


COP=8.1

http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm#COP
 
Chet
   

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Buy me some coffee
Did i get this wrong, i cannot see any measurement of the energy spent to energize the toroid, surely this is the only place to measure energy spent.

All he is doing is measuring the energy produced in the magnetization period against the energy produced in the demag period, i would have though this has no bearing on the energy used in the fet side of the circuit.

Please correct me if i am wrong.

Peter

   
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Peter,
thats a very good question!
Can't hurt to ask?

 JNaudin509@aol.com

Chet
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Fairly good success thus far replicating Steorn's blue integration trace of the Orbo. This is Steorn's rendition of input energy to the system, which of course is incorrect. The measurement points are not in the right positions for a battery power measurement.

At any rate, here is "Simbo" version 0.99. I will add more versions if I can achieve a closer fit to the actual trace.

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
One step closer...

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Good work poynt99!

Do you still feel that there is no energy gain in the orbo?

   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Thanks DS.

Yeah, I'm still certain Orbo is underunity overall.

I am intrigued with their attempt though. I believe I've got most of the secret unraveled, but getting it to simulate is a bit more of a challenge. This is one case where an actual build might get to the finish line quicker, now that I'm this far. (and I may indeed build it)

I'm puzzled though why only one other has been able to reproduce a reasonable facsimile so far (without the downward slope). ??? JLN and TK (et al) have been playing with this a while now.

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Ya that is strange.

Have you ever considered the idea that they took a toroidal core and cut a very narrow slit in one side?

http://powerelectronics.com/mag/power_why_air_gap/
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Thanks for the informative link.

Yes, I have considered a gapped-core, however, for the Orbo application mu must be as high as possible (and the B-H curve square as possible) in order to achieve the Orbo "effect".

In addition to wanting the core to be highly ferromagnetic, the idea is to have the core act as an inductance switch.

.99

PS. Are the two figures available somewhere from that article?


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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I dont know..

Im just always suspicious of the components i cant see.  ;D

   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
More info, and a brief illustration of the path so far...

I could elucidate with much more detail, but I trust some important aspects to achieving the effect and of the overall circuit operation are quite evident below.

This is not yet perfect and it should be understood that one or two liberties have been taken in the process of reverse engineering this energy trace and the circuit in general. Notwithstanding, this I hope has provided a number of important insights.

Getting a core model to behave accordingly is the next challenge.

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
A copy of one of TK's scope shots. The strange thing to note here is that it appears less energy is used when driving the rotor than when driving the coils alone.

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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A copy of one of TK's scope shots. The strange thing to note here is that it appears less energy is used when driving the rotor than when driving the coils alone.

.99

The proximity of the magnetic field ( rotor magnet ) lowers the resistance and changes the inductance of the drive coil. Could this account for it?

   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
DS,

It seems it is not often mentioned in books and papers (only twice since I've been researching cores) but some (or perhaps all) core material will exhibit an increase in permeability in the presence of a magnetic field, which increases the flux density within. After a certain point of further B-field increase, the permeability begins to decrease.

I've attached one eg. from "Handbook of Modern Ferromagnetic Materials":

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
DON'T watch this video....especially you MH, LOL

Good Grief!  :-\

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Poynt:

I am predicting death for Steorn in 2011!  Others are saying that they will go into a deeper level of hibernation where the company will only exist on paper and surface from time to time.  Sean and his one-man band.

DON'T watch this video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5O3eobu-Ig

MileHigh
   
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