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Author Topic: Flea Power Measurements  (Read 8351 times)
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Hi ION,

Yes I agree and I forgot to mention the 1MHz lower frequency limit, sorry.  Good quality paralleled poly capacitors of many microFarad value to replace the 100nF coupling cap C1 (together with C2)  could shift the lower frequency limit down in the kHz range, albeit still degrading sensitivity below that limit. Surely some compensation method would be in order, probably not impossible if needed.

Here are all the pages of the article.

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Thanks for the article, gyula, I learned something new.

 The term "baretter" was not known to me although I had used the effect of non-linear tungsten filament in my work.

Now I have a much better understanding of why small incandescent bulbs were used in the design.



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Posted here for archiveand not to clutter the bifilar thread. Thought I'd give this a try as an alternative method for testing pm's folded line.

There is a bug that needs working out, i.e. you have to know what the power factor of the DUT input is so you can compensate R1.

There are many ways to do this, but I'll leave it for now, close enough for higher COP devices.

Pre-calibration of the device would not be difficult and the chart of temperature rise vs power can be used to determine power out if needed.


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Posted here for archiveand not to clutter the bifilar thread. Thought I'd give this a try as an alternative method for testing pm's folded line.

There is a bug that needs working out, i.e. you have to know what the power factor of the DUT input is so you can compensate R1.

There are many ways to do this, but I'll leave it for now, close enough for higher COP devices.

Pre-calibration of the device would not be difficult and the chart of temperature rise vs power can be used to determine power out if needed.

OK,this is getting confusing  ???

Did not myself and TK carry out this very test,only where we substituted the thermocouple for the grain of wheat incandescent bulbs--see post 379 in the bifilar coil thread.

I do not know what you mean by compensating R1 in reference to the power factor?.
Are we now saying ohms law has a bug,where there are cases where the RMS value across a resistor dose not equate to the power being dissipated by that resistor?.


Brad


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OK,this is getting confusing  ???

Did not myself and TK carry out this very test,only where we substituted the thermocouple for the grain of wheat incandescent bulbs--see post 379 in the bifilar coil thread.

I do not know what you mean by compensating R1 in reference to the power factor?.
Are we now saying ohms law has a bug,where there are cases where the RMS value across a resistor dose not equate to the power being dissipated by that resistor?.
Brad

Brad

What I am saying is that the DUT input may have a power factor problem (as we have seen by the cosine) and may actually draw less real power than the R1 resistor. In effect the input of the DUT may be at a slight disadvantage in not drawing the same full power that R1 will, so if anything the bridge will read in favor of a slightly lowered COP. This is good in that we err in the right direction, if the device has a high COP, it will not be a big problem.

But this can be compensated by adjusting R1 so that it matches the real input power of the DUT. Not a big problem, I just haven't figured out a perfect way to do it yet. No, Ohms law does not have a bug. R1 will have the full real power of E^2/R, but the input to the DUT won't because of the power factor. So not the perfect test, but I have shown others ways in this thread.

e.g. R1 can be removed from it's present connection and be fed from a power supply,
 and the power supply can be adjusted to null the bridge. Then E^2(from the power supply) /R will equal the actual power delivered at the output of the DUT. In this way it is like an old balance scale comparing DUT output to a reference voltage and current. See some of my earlier drawings in this thread.

Hope that helps.


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Brad

What I am saying is that the DUT input may have a power factor problem (as we have seen by the cosine) and may actually draw less real power than the R1 resistor. In effect the input of the DUT may be at a slight disadvantage in not drawing the same full power that R1 will, so if anything the bridge will read in favor of a slightly lowered COP. This is good in that we err in the right direction, if the device has a high COP, it will not be a big problem.

But this can be compensated by adjusting R1 so that it matches the real input power of the DUT. Not a big problem, I just haven't figured out a perfect way to do it yet. No, Ohms law does not have a bug. R1 will have the full real power of E^2/R, but the input to the DUT won't because of the power factor. So not the perfect test, but I have shown others ways in this thread.

e.g. R1 can be removed from it's present connection and be fed from a power supply,
 and the power supply can be adjusted to null the bridge. Then E^2(from the power supply) /R will equal the actual power delivered at the output of the DUT. In this way it is like an old balance scale comparing DUT output to a reference voltage and current. See some of my earlier drawings in this thread.

Hope that helps.

Ah-ok,yes that helps.

Cheers

Brad


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Weighing in on Low Power True RMS Measurements

Introducing (again) The Poor Man's True RMS Thermal Bridge

Well the poor mans true thermal RMS measuring technique seems not to have garnered much interest. Perhaps I did not use a catchy  enough title and did not have the code words that trigger instant views. Perhaps it is because no one likes to read technical stuff and its not a youtube video. Perhaps it is my fault for not teaching the art in a clear enough manner.

 For less than five cents and some short pieces of wire, you can construct a thermal balance bridge that has many nice features for low or high power true RMS measurements of energy devices e.g

Extremely easy to build, a child could do it!

Easy to calibrate and setup

Extremely low cost for the bridge (not counting external DVM)

Able to handle different impedance on each side of the bridge by changing resistors.

Able to resolve differences of 1mW (or less depending on the care of construction.

Good resolution for signals less than 50 mW

Accurate readings not affected by crest factor, or frequency

Thermocouple temperature  meter not needed, a good quality DMM with mV,  or better yet uV resolution will work.

True thermal RMS.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When DC or a wave of any shape is put into a resistor, it develops a heating value in the resistor.

This heating value is fairly linear, especially at lower levels of temperature.

But we need to compensate for the ambient ambient temperature so how do we do this?

Since this is a balance bridge (like a balance scale) we just use two resistors with separate thermocouples.

The thermocouples are wired to subtract and therefore the net output of the bridge is the difference between the two thermocouples,or conversely the difference in heat developed in the two resistors.
 
So we are measuring the difference in heat value of the two resistors.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What you will need / building it:

Two resistors, the value will depend on the impedance you want this bridge to be e.g. 50 ohms or 10,000 ohms. It is good to size the resistors to dissipate no greater mW than the expected output or range of the DUT.

e.g. I have used 1/4 Watt (250 mW) 100 ohm resistors in my bridge for low level work. You can go to 1/8 Watt or less if you want it to be really low level and fast acting, (less mass).

You will need to fashion two thermocouples, and the way I usually make it is to use thin strands pulled from stranded T/C wire. Best to use type E thermocouple wire for highest output. Why thin strands? we want a very low thermal mass and tiny thermocouples. I have also used iron and constantan, a bit lower output than type E, but choose the thermocouple wire that has the highest output over the range of 25C to 100C.

You will want to epoxy the thermocouple tips in the middle of the resistor body, using just a small amount of epoxy to keep the mass down. (improves response and settling time). 

Now there are some construction tricks we can employ to greatly improve the sensitivity and accuracy of these bridges. We will get into that later. The basic starter bridge depicted will be accurate enough for zero to 500 mW.

We will get into wire selection for the making of our thermocouples in following pages.

See the attached drawing for the construction.
« Last Edit: 2017-05-15, 03:45:34 by ION »


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Indeed, it is possible to measure a high frequency AC output power with two identical NI resistors and thermocouples or thermistors.
One resistor has the measured RF output current flowing through it and the other has a DC current generated by an op-amp in a feedback loop with the two thermocouples/thermistors.

The difficulty with it is getting identical resistors and  thermocouples or thermistors with a calibrated thermal loss to ambient and no thermal cross-talk.

Another method for measuring small RF output power is Vasik's circuit.

Measuring input power cannot be done this way because the power dissipated in a resistor connected in series with the input terminals of the DUT is not the same as the power delivered to that DUT. 
So high frequency AC input power measurement is much more difficult. It can be done with a circuit like the one below that converts watts to volts for displaying them on a digital voltmeter.
« Last Edit: 2017-05-07, 22:46:28 by verpies »
   
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Dear Verpies

Quote
The problem with it is getting identical resistors and  thermocouples or thermistors with a calibrated thermal loss to ambient and no thermal cross-talk.

We do not worry about loss to ambient, as it is a null balance method, not a quantitative method.

Matching of thermocouples is not necessary if they are cut from the same roll of wire.

Cross talk can be held to a minimum with careful construction. The method is still under construction and many of your concerns have been priorly considered and simple solutions worked out, but not yet posted.

How identical would you consider the resistors need to be?...I have resistors that are 0.02% over the range of interest. There are trimming and compensating methods if need be tighter tolerance.

Quote
Measuring input power cannot be done this way because the power dissipated in a resistor connected in series with the input terminals of the DUT is not the same as the power delivered to that DUT. 

I already explained that there are two methods to use the bridge, one method connects to the input to the DUT in which case power factor to the DUT is compensated by increasing R1

The other method (manual) is by using a power supply to balance the bridge and noting power required. Such null balance methods are tried and true for over 200 years.

I have used the method with great success over the years, and was only trying to share what I have learned from over 30 years of working in the field of thermocouple thermometry.

Lastly, I am familiar with your circuit, Vasiks circuit and other RF bridge circuits that have been published over the years, but I admit not all of them.

I find this approach works just fine, meets my needs, and solves many problems, but not all.
That's why I wanted to share it with others.

Perhaps I need to make the intent of the thread clearer as you are well respected by all on this forum including me, and your opinions carry much weight, however your caveats have cast this work in a negative light, and IMO perhaps unfairly.

If it doesn't meet your criteria or you find it objectionable, kindly disregard and by all means, don't use it.

You could also petition the administrator to have it removed with the claim that it is technically unworkable.

Regards

P.S. I think I may be wasting my time on this forum trying to be helpful, maybe time better spent elsewhere.

« Last Edit: 2017-05-07, 22:46:11 by ION »


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Your method is not objectionable.  On the contrary, it is a good method for measuring RF output power, especially when the "balancing input" is automatically fed from the output of an op-amp that has these two thermocouples at its input.

I will change the word "problem" to "difficulty" if it came across to you as too negative of a word.  My reply was meant to underline difficulties of your approach so people know what to pay special attention to when building it.  These difficulties can be solved with attention to these details so your system is not "unworkable".

Also, I was not worried about the absolute thermal loss to ambient but the differential between two such losses (for these two resistors/tc combos)

P.S. I think I may be wasting my time on this forum trying to be helpful, maybe time better spent elsewhere.
You must be joking!
...or you must not realize that your posts are usually so complete that there is no need for people to add anything to them, hence you get little feedback.
« Last Edit: 2017-05-07, 23:21:13 by verpies »
   
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...
Measuring input power cannot be done this way because the power dissipated in a resistor connected in series with the input terminals of the DUT is not the same as the power delivered to that DUT. 
...

Hi Verpies,

In that series resistor in question, suppose we learn about the RF power dissipated in it (as per ION's proposed setup),  can we use the P=I*I*R formula to get the current through the resistor? 
If yes, then ION's proposed setup would also be good for input power measurement, if we consider the RF input voltage to the DUT and we calculate input power from the thus received current and voltage values.  Would this be correct?

Regarding your schematic with the ADL5391B, it looks very good to me, is this IC still available or only the ADL5391 is available now? This latter operates to 2 GHz, I cannot find info on the B type, did it become obsolote?

Thanks,  Gyula
   

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In that series resistor in question, suppose we learn about the RF power dissipated in it (as per ION's proposed setup),  can we use the P=I*I*R formula to get the current through the resistor? 
Yes, but you must remember, that this measurement gives you the rms average current.

If yes, then ION's proposed setup would also be good for input power measurement, if we consider the RF input voltage to the DUT and we calculate input power from the thus received current and voltage values. 
Would this be correct?
No, because in general, the product of average input current and RF input voltage does not equal average input power * :(


Regarding your schematic with the ADL5391B, it looks very good to me, is this IC still available or only the ADL5391 is available now?
Don't build this circuit with the ADL5391 because it will be crap!!!  Itsu did that and it did not work.
The "B" suffix means a "buffered" 1GHz chip with high input impedances and I got it in a beta sample program.
It is possible to use the unbuffered 2GHz version in this application but some changes would need to be made because the unbuffered version has low input impedances (this is on my TO DO list with Itsu).


* ...the product of average input current and average input voltage does not equal average input power, either (unless it is DC)
« Last Edit: 2017-05-07, 23:34:21 by verpies »
   
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Okay, I understand, thanks.

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Quote from: gyula on Today at 22:47:42

Quote
    If yes, then ION's proposed setup would also be good for input power measurement, if we consider the RF input voltage to the DUT and we calculate input power from the thus received current and voltage values.
    Would this be correct?

From verpies:
Quote
No, because in general, the product of average input current and RF input voltage does not equal average input power * :(

So no one really read the part where I said it could be compensated by trimming R1 upwards to compensate for the power factor on the input to the DUT (two different places in the post) .

Also the thermal differences to ambient are not a factor when the device is constructed properly.

My intent was to offer something simple that works surprisingly well for it's simplicity and is easily built by those not advanced in the electronic art. There are numerous more sophisticated methods of accomplishing the task available, but these may require a skill level that only EE's and advanced Techs can build and properly setup and evaluate. This point was missed.

My advice, if too simple and doesn't fit your needs, don't read this thread, there are plenty of others methods available.
 
One can nit pick anything "ad absurdum" if one has a special need to.   ???

Think I'm wasting my time. Forget about it.

Maybe deleting the thread would be best, because elegant simplicity is sometimes not appreciated or valued in the world of complication and sophistry.

And to think it was Einstein that said: "Things should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler".

It's based on the attached but I guess the Linear Tech guys had it all wrong:  C.C
« Last Edit: 2017-05-08, 02:12:24 by ION »


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Weighing in on Low Power True RMS Measurements

Introducing (again) The Poor Man's True RMS Thermal Bridge

Well the poor mans true thermal RMS measuring technique seems not to have garnered much interest. Perhaps I did not use a catchy  enough title and did not have the code words that trigger instant views. Perhaps it is because no one likes to read technical stuff and its not a youtube video. Perhaps it is my fault for not teaching the art in a clear enough manner.

 For less than five cents and some short pieces of wire, you can construct a thermal balance bridge that has many nice features for low or high power true RMS measurements of energy devices e.g

Extremely easy to build, a child could do it!

Easy to calibrate and setup

Extremely low cost for the bridge (not counting external DVM)

Able to handle different impedance on each side of the bridge by changing resistors.

Able to resolve differences of 1mW (or less depending on the care of construction.

Good resolution for signals less than 50 mW

Accurate readings not affected by crest factor, or frequency

Thermocouple temperature  meter not needed, a good quality DMM with mV,  or better yet uV resolution will work.

True thermal RMS.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When DC or a wave of any shape is put into a resistor, it develops a heating value in the resistor.

This heating value is fairly linear, especially at lower levels of temperature.

But we need to compensate for the ambient ambient temperature so how do we do this?

Since this is a balance bridge (like a balance scale) we just use two resistors with separate thermocouples.

The thermocouples are wired to subtract and therefore the net output of the bridge is the difference between the two thermocouples,or conversely the difference in heat developed in the two resistors.
 
So we are measuring the difference in heat value of the two resistors.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What you will need / building it:

Two resistors, the value will depend on the impedance you want this bridge to be e.g. 50 ohms or 10,000 ohms. It is good to size the resistors to dissipate no greater mW than the expected output or range of the DUT.

e.g. I have used 1/4 Watt (250 mW) 100 ohm resistors in my bridge for low level work. You can go to 1/8 Watt or less if you want it to be really low level and fast acting, (less mass).

You will need to fashion two thermocouples, and the way I usually make it is to use thin strands pulled from stranded T/C wire. You can make it with iron and copper wire. Why thin strands? we want a very low thermal mass and tiny thermocouples. I prefer to use iron and constantan, but choose the thermocouple wire that has the highest output over the range of 25C to 100C.

You will want to epoxy the thermocouple tips in the middle of the resistor body, using just a small amount of epoxy to keep the mass down. (improves response and settling time). 

Now there are some construction tricks we can employ to greatly improve the sensitivity and accuracy of these bridges. We will get into that later. The basic starter bridge depicted will be accurate enough for zero to 500 mW.

We will get into wire selection for the making of our thermocouples in following pages.

See the attached drawing for the construction.

ION

Where dose the power(voltage source) come from to put a voltage across the volt meter in your thermocouple circuit?.

OK-i am a bit lost,as it looks like your circuit shows nothing more than wire wrapped around the two resistor's,and connected to a volt meter. ???


P.S--dont take it to heart that not many people respond to your post's. \
I have asked on a number of occasions now,on the BPC thread,for help understanding my scope shot's i supplied--trying to learn.
Seems no one is interested too much in my post's either  C.C


Brad


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Where dose the power(voltage source) come from to put a voltage across the volt meter in your thermocouple circuit?.

Just two different metals put together (to form thermocouple) produce voltage themselves.
Check this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple

Regards

PS this was used even for electric power generation http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/thermoelectric/thermoelectric.htm
   
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Brad said:

Quote
OK-i am a bit lost,as it looks like your circuit shows nothing more than wire wrapped around the two resistor's,and connected to a volt meter. ???

Not just any wires but wires of dissimilar metals.

Two different types of wire twisted together produce a voltage when heated. The voltage of the hot junction is always in reference to the "reference junction" or cold junction. The two junctions form a differential voltage generating circuit. Thus if the two junctions are used and placed on two resistors, there will be a voltage developed if there is a difference in heating of the two resistors.

In this way you can compare e.g input power vs output power and the difference will be a voltage.

For a better understanding of thermocouples and how they work see here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQUY_bs59a4

I was going to get into wire selection for the thermocouple in following posts, but briefly, a type "E" thermocouple (Chromel and Constantan) produces an output of 6.319 mV/100 Deg C.

You could use copper and iron wire as in the video, however in the video he is trying to generate high currents so he uses thick wire. If you just want the voltage, you can use very thin copper and iron wire which will cut down thermal cross talk between the junctions.

I'll post some pictures of the devices I have built and more info later if there is an interest.

This method produces much more resolution at levels under 50mW and is far more linear than the GOW and light meter method. See earlier posts.

Regards.



« Last Edit: 2017-05-15, 03:56:25 by ION »


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Brad said:

Not just any wires but wires of dissimilar metals.

Two different types of wire twisted together produce a voltage when heated. The voltage of the ht junction is always in reference to the "reference junction". The two junctions form a differential voltage generating circuit. Thus if the two junctions are used and placed on two resistors, there will be an voltage developed if there is a difference in heating of the two resistors.

For a better understanding of thermocouples and how they work see here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQUY_bs59a4

I was going to get into wire selection for the thermocouple in following posts, but briefly, a type "E" thermocouple (Chromel and Constantan) produces an output of 6.319 uV/Deg C.

You could use copper and iron wire as in the video, however in the video he is trying to generate high currents so he uses thick wire. If you just want the voltage, you can use very thin copper and iron wire which will cut down thermal cross talk between the junctions.



This method produces much more resolution at levels under 50mW and is far more linear than the GOW and light meter method. See earlier posts.

Regards.

Quote
I'll post some pictures of the devices I have built and more info later if there is an interest.


Yes,there is much interest--from me anyway  O0


Brad


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Brad

 I am still looking for info on the best wire to use and e.g. how much iron and copper will produce. I have in the past used types J, T, and E, but would like to find out more about iron and copper, since everyone will have that on hand.

Attached is a brief tutorial on thermocouples. Pay special attention to the second drawing to understand thermocouples as differential voltage generating devices.

Since we don't expect to go over 100C the wire types need not be exotic.

Also attached is a pic of my first very crude (but worked well) differential power measurement box, with top styrofoam cover removed.

Later versions were more advanced, this was only for proof of principle when I  first started the thread. The graphs in the beginning of the thread were obtained using this box. 1/4 Watt resistors carbon film were used, Iron-Constantan TC wire, and cyano glued to resistors.

More to come.

Regards
« Last Edit: 2017-05-08, 16:06:28 by ION »


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So no one really read the part where I said it could be compensated by trimming R1 upwards to compensate for the power factor on the input to the DUT...
I read it but it made no sense to me for measuring arbitrary AC input power.
Perhaps you could elaborate what data you hope to obtain from the dual R/TC arrangement and how can that data be translated to input power of an arbitrary DUT.

Please make a schematic of such measurement.  Just copy/paste the LT1088 diagram and connect it up to a DUT's input terminals and an arbitrary AC source using MS-Paint or similar.  It does not have to be pretty.

My advice, if too simple and doesn't fit your needs, don't read this thread,...
Simple is beautiful and it suits my needs for RF output power measurement if the thermal symmetry is well maintained.

Also the thermal differences to ambient are not a factor when the device is constructed properly.
Does that mean it is easy to construct so that it maintains thermal symmetry and immunity to external temperature gradients ?
 
It's based on the attached but I guess the Linear Tech guys had it all wrong:  C.C
They had it right for an rms-dc current converter, but how can this device measure arbitrary input power?
BTW: That's what I meant by driving the "balancing input" by an op-amp.

Your method is not objectionable.  On the contrary, it is a good method for measuring RF output power, especially when the "balancing input" is automatically fed from the output of an op-amp that has these two thermocouples at its input.
« Last Edit: 2017-05-08, 16:53:23 by verpies »
   
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Brad: Here is a starter block diagram for how to measure e.g the power output of a device that has an arbitrary waveform. It does not address the input power measurement, that will be in the next block diagram.

Notice that this schematic requires the operator to null the system. The operator can be replaced by using an op amp that servoes the balancing resistor based on the error signal. Interesting improvements arise when this is done e.g. a slow frequency sweep of the input will give a plot of power output by either monitoring and plotting the power supply output or the servo correction signal output. This will help identify the most efficient operating points.  I have not yet drawn this diagram but will as time permits.

Regarding the question of ambient temperature effects, they are automatically nulled out by virtue of the differential measuring method e.g. as ambient temperature rises, the thermal emf of each thermocouple rises but since they are connected as a differential measurement, the ambient is always subtracted out automatically.

Thermal symmetry can be quite acceptable if relatively large styrofoam blocks e.g. 1" x 2" x6" are used to sandwich the resistors and thermocouples.

Remember, we are not trying to get the performance of a $1000 instrument, just a tool that can be built for under a dollar or less for the experimenter on a budget, not for the EE, who will surely scoff at such an attempt.

The input power measuring and balancing against output power will possibly be the next block diagram as time permits.


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Brad: Here is a starter block diagram for how to measure e.g the power output of a device that has an arbitrary waveform. It does not address the input power measurement, that will be in the next block diagram.

Notice that this schematic requires the operator to null the system. The operator can be replaced by using an op amp that servoes the balancing resistor based on the error signal. Interesting improvements arise when this is done e.g. a slow frequency sweep of the input will give a plot of power output by either monitoring and plotting the power supply output or the servo correction signal output. This will help identify the most efficient operating points.  I have not yet drawn this diagram but will as time permits.

Regarding the question of ambient temperature effects, they are automatically nulled out by virtue of the differential measuring method e.g. as ambient temperature rises, the thermal emf of each thermocouple rises but since they are connected as a differential measurement, the ambient is always subtracted out automatically.

Thermal symmetry can be quite acceptable if relatively large styrofoam blocks e.g. 1" x 2" x6" are used to sandwich the resistors and thermocouples.

Remember, we are not trying to get the performance of a $1000 instrument, just a tool that can be built for under a dollar or less for the experimenter on a budget, not for the EE, who will surely scoff at such an attempt.

The input power measuring and balancing against output power will possibly be the next block diagram as time permits.

Ok,looks good.

So i will need a uV volt meter , analog  is ok ?.

Brad


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Ok,looks good.
So i will need a uV volt meter , analog  is ok ?.
Brad

Some of the better DMM have a uV scale. I wouldn't buy anything just yet until we research what is available. Meanwhile you could try with your present better grade DMM. Sometimes just a simple analog uA meter will work. I prefer the center zero deviation types for that. Let me take some time to see what is out there.

More importantly you need to get  a small amount (approx 6 inches) of TC wire , fine stranded type so that we can pull separate fine strands or just single strand but around 26 to 32 AWG. I'll have to do some research where to get it.
The other types J, T, and K will also work at slightly lower output. J would be the next choice.

E is 6.319 mV / 100 Deg C or approx 63 uV / Deg C (Chromel-Constantan)
J is 5.269 mV / 100 Deg C or approx 53 uV / Deg C (Iron-Constantan)
T is 4.279 mV / 100 Deg C or approx 43 uV / Deg C (Copper-Constantan)
K is 4.096 mv / 100 Deg C or approx 41 uV / Deg C (Chromel Alumel)

I tried plain old copper and iron fine gauge wire, but the output was way too low, so that's out.

Regards
« Last Edit: 2017-05-09, 04:28:06 by ION »


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I want to add that the circuit that verpies has posted here in reply #32 and elsewhere on this forum and other forums of the wideband DC to 1GHz wattmeter using ADL5391B is an excellent choice and should be used if you have the skill and time to construct it.

I have often commented very positively in regard to the use of it. I believe Farnell and Mouser used to have an evaluation kit for the I/C. So if you want to build a lab quality instrument that is the way to go. As a matter of fact I would consider to purchase an eval board ($253)  but can't as yet find them in stock anywhere.

Regarding some of the other RF power meters that have been referenced, they are high frequency RF grade and do not go down to DC or low frequency which is one of the criteria I would want as some of the devices I hope to evaluate would go to LF or near DC.

Of course a pure DC output device would not at all need exotic measuring equipment.

Regards

Edit: found the I/C in stock at Digikey


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Also attached is a pic of my first very crude (but worked well) differential power measurement box, with top styrofoam cover removed.
Wrapping the resistors with the thermocouple wire is not a good idea because that thermocouple winding will pick up the magnetic flux variations from the current flowing in the resistors and the induced voltage will swamp the thermocouple signal approximately 100000 times.

See the scopeshot below for a 10Ω ¼W THT resistor wrapped with 7 turns of wire while a 1MHz 340mAP-P square AC is flowing through it.
Green trace is the current through the resistor and the yellow trace is the voltage induced in the 7 turns of wire (4.8VP-P).
« Last Edit: 2017-05-09, 12:06:39 by verpies »
   
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