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Author Topic: Naudin's Gegene  (Read 214512 times)
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The current state of the art is to use resonant converters.
Simple PWM control of energy applied to a pot was state of the art well prior to the 1980's.
...
Since when does an LC circuit become classified as not resonant simply because it is fed by a switching device?
...

I didn't say the contrary.

PWM control is still in use but lower cost solutions have been implemented in most of the induction cookers.
 
I have shown that the exact same function can be and is also realized without resonance and so, resonance is not a key function of the gegene device.

And this is confirmed by the fact that I also emphasized, that the resonance is not involved at the output and therefore a "resonant energy" can't be related to the output power. Moreover the Q is ridiculously low.

To invoke resonance when it can be avoid for the same result or when it is an accessory use somewhere in the electronics circuit is a twisted argument.

   

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Quote from: exnihiloest
To invoke resonance when it can be avoid for the same result or when it is an accessory use somewhere in the electronics circuit is a twisted argument.

What is truly puzzling Ex is why your arguments
and protestations have departed from the "scientific
ideal."  :o

Now, tell us once again:  "Who is it that is making
twisted arguments?"


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
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PWM control is still in use but lower cost solutions have been implemented in most of the induction cookers.

Agreed. In fact, as stated in the many tech docs concerning induction cookers using resonance, resonant converter circuits are the path used to smaller, less costly components and higher efficiency.
 
Quote

I have shown that the exact same function can be and is also realized without resonance and so, resonance is not a key function of the gegene device.

You have shown it and it was also part of many of the OEM and engineering explanations relating to the improvements over such systems prior to LCC/LLC resonant power converters and induction cookers using the same technology. The same technical papers about resonant converters clearly explain that resonance is a key factor in the control of energy applied to the cooking pot.
As far as it being important in JLN's gegene.... that thought is absurd. Resonance or no resonance it would not be key in producing OU.
As far as it being used in the gegene.... I don't know and don't care. IMHO, it doesn't matter.
As already explained, repeatedly and clearly documented - If an induction cooker is using resonance it is usually to provide feedback to the controller so proper PRF (pulse rate frequency) and therefore controlled mutual induction and therefore power is applied to the varying sizes and construction of the many possible variations of cookware. This variation in PRF is varied from zero to the resonant frequency of the total RLC circuit (including the ferrite strips on the bottom of the coil and the cookware).

You can bark about Q all you wish. It doesn't matter. As long as Q>.5 there is resonance. When the driven PRF approaches the circuit resonance mutual induction increases but is never at the level of a conventional power transformer. Such high coupling would lower the Q and widen bandwidth to the point of being useless for controlling energy applied to the cookware.

Yes, PWM is still used, oviously. It is clearly a function in all recent induction cookers, including the ones where the OEM claim the use of resonance.

Quote

And this is confirmed by the fact that I also emphasized, that the resonance is not involved at the output and therefore a "resonant energy" can't be related to the output power. Moreover the Q is ridiculously low.

I must assume that you haven't read any documentation on the subject of resonant power conversion.

Quote
To invoke resonance when it can be avoid for the same result or when it is an accessory use somewhere in the electronics circuit is a twisted argument.

The same result is not possible using blind blasting of a PWM signal. That would be operation found prior to the development of resonant converters used in induction cooker, a radiant heater element or gas power.

Complain to the engineers designing these things, not to me.
   
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I think it's time this absurd argument is ended, it may take the adults in the argument to just end it.

This is what is wrong with these type sites in general, certain folks make too many assumptions about what other people mean
when they say something, rather than ask for clarification they assume. I'm tired of having what I post misunderstood on purpose
in many cases in my opinion, just for the sake of argument. These same people state everything they say as "fact". What is
wrong with adding the phrase in my opinion after a statement of opinion. Facts should be proved by those that claim them as facts.
Opinions need not be proven unless the opinion maker wishes.

Honestly, it is ok for people to have different opinions of what they call resonance. That is why i like to clarify things a lot to try
to understand properly what the person is actually trying to say.

In my opinion "resonance" is a term related originally to "sound" and was adapted to use in other ways.

It's actually irrelevant if there is resonance or not, and peoples strict definitions of resonance differ.

I say get over it, or post a definition to be used on this site and that's it, then be done with it.

Same with OU. A moderator should define Over Unity clearly and precisely and request that is the definition attributed to OU
and it should be used in that way here.

Constant argument about what is this and what is that is a bit much.

If the resonant frequency of a inductance and capacitance combination is targeted to improve efficiency or throughput or retard them then it use of resonance, in my opinion.

I think there needs to be a list of valid topics or guidelines so we know what we can post about.

I for one refuse to start any threads here because I can do without the pointless and endless argument with EX. and him twisting my words ect.
Either the site has room for things that are not OU as per some peoples definition or it doesn't. But what is the official definition ?

In my opinion he serves the main purpose of causing unnecessary and prolonged argument, I think we could do better with out him.

As far as I am concerned. While Ex. is posting here this site is dead to me. I have better ways to spend my time than arguing with bricks that change color.

Just my opinion.

Good luck all and goodbye. 
   
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I have better ways to spend my time than arguing with bricks that change color.

Then don't do it.

Ignore him and he will get bored.

Feed him with a response, and he will come back for more.

Its that simple.
.
   
Group: Guest
I think it's time this absurd argument is ended, it may take the adults in the argument to just end it.

This is what is wrong with these type sites in general, certain folks make too many assumptions about what other people mean
when they say something, rather than ask for clarification they assume. I'm tired of having what I post misunderstood on purpose
in many cases in my opinion, just for the sake of argument. These same people state everything they say as "fact". What is
wrong with adding the phrase in my opinion after a statement of opinion. Facts should be proved by those that claim them as facts.
Opinions need not be proven unless the opinion maker wishes.

Honestly, it is ok for people to have different opinions of what they call resonance. That is why i like to clarify things a lot to try
to understand properly what the person is actually trying to say.

In my opinion "resonance" is a term related originally to "sound" and was adapted to use in other ways.

It's actually irrelevant if there is resonance or not, and peoples strict definitions of resonance differ.

I say get over it, or post a definition to be used on this site and that's it, then be done with it.

Same with OU. A moderator should define Over Unity clearly and precisely and request that is the definition attributed to OU
and it should be used in that way here.

Constant argument about what is this and what is that is a bit much.

If the resonant frequency of a inductance and capacitance combination is targeted to improve efficiency or throughput or retard them then it use of resonance, in my opinion.

I think there needs to be a list of valid topics or guidelines so we know what we can post about.

I for one refuse to start any threads here because I can do without the pointless and endless argument with EX. and him twisting my words ect.
Either the site has room for things that are not OU as per some peoples definition or it doesn't. But what is the official definition ?

In my opinion he serves the main purpose of causing unnecessary and prolonged argument, I think we could do better with out him.

As far as I am concerned. While Ex. is posting here this site is dead to me. I have better ways to spend my time than arguing with bricks that change color.

Just my opinion.

Good luck all and goodbye. 

FarmHand-It would be a shame if you leave on statements made by another here.Ex may disagree with much that is said here,but if we all agreed with one another with all could end up at the wrong end of the path without argument.This happens on all forum's,and shows that there are people that have there own mind and thoughts.I think you would recall UFOpolotics thread ,where i was asked to leave because i dare question his test method's and result's.You will remember his scream of OU(not once but twice).You will remember many people buying kit's,and also remember how UFO kept telling us skeptics on that thread to be happy with our gas guzzling heaps of sh-t.You will also know that so far not one self runner has been achieved.My point is that if you believe in what your saying to be true,you put forth your argument so as many(like in the UFO thread)dint spend there hard earned cash and end up going on a trip in the wrong direction.

So far with the test i have carried out on the GEGENE setup,i have seen nothing that would indicate any OU.But i also haven't finished testing,as i dint yet have the equipment needed.This thread has become much like a game of tennis,where you just sit there and watch the ball go back and forth-but now the fans are starting to leave before the game is over.I do agree that it is hard to learn from this game of tennis-it's much like trying to pick a winner before the game is over.So to get the final result,one must stick around until the game is over.

Just remember that difference of opinions are needed for man to move forward-the world is no longer flat.
   

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Frequency equals matter...


Buy me a drink
@Farmhand,
Do not leave on a petty issue. Stay and push forward on grander schemes. Seriously...

The pioneer does not turn back just because the buffalo run off the cliff.


---------------------------
   
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Posts: 805
It's terrible that you use the pretext of LC circuits implemented for low cost reasons for the positive feedback at the input of the IGBTs (because a stable frequency is not required), to pretend that the resonance is a key feature of an induction cooker circuit, while there is no resonance at the output because of the switching operation and while the state of the art allows also to use PWM circuits to control the power stage, without any need of resonance!    C.C



It's like to say in the 1950's that the vacuum is needed for a radio receiver to work, because you would have seen that radio receivers use vacuum tubes!
It's the principle that one has to understand here: a simple switching of the mains frequency after rectification.






My dear exnihiloest,  in my humble opinion, you are:

  1) wrong about resonance,
  2) clueless about resonant converters,
  3) and simply too proud to admit you are wrong,  

INMO, Dumped gave you a free and accurate psychological assessment!  Read it and learn from it, so you can better your life.

I joined this discussion of the Gegene based on tinmen's results and posts of the induction cooker schematic.  You came out accusing and said over and over that"  "there is no resonance to speak of"   and now you proved to us without a doubt, that you are not familiar with resonant converters.  You can twist my words all you want and copy and paste off the internet, but if you have no knowledge you don't know what to copy and paste, so you paste unrelated circuits, showcasing your ignorance for all to see.

You want proof?    See image bellow.


Farmhand,  I prefer you over EX,  INMO he should take a vacation.    :P
Paul-R   sorry I had to do one more feeding of the monster!   (by a monster! ) :D
WW, my head is all bruised up, I need a band aide!   >:(

EM
   
Group: Guest

My dear exnihiloest,  in my humble opinion, you are:

  1) wrong about resonance,
  2) clueless about resonant converters,
  3) and simply too proud to admit you are wrong,  
...

Your opinion doesn't make science nor technics. I gave strong technical arguments that the resonance is not significant in the gegene.
You didn't challenge them, you can't because these arguments are right. Instead, you make a projection and attack me personally, not what I say and that passes over your head.
Your opinion about people is not humble, it is as stupid as about technics and resonance, it is as peremptory as unfounded, and moreover here, it is out of topic.
In absence of knowledge, "opinion" is only what you have. Your opinion has strictly no interest for a technical domain. If you search for an escape valve, consult a psychiatrist.

   
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TinMan
Thanks for the efforts,cook top sales Have been up the last quarter  O0

In all seriousness you are doing a very big service for this community.

Thx
Chet
PS
Farmhand
what doesn't kill you makes you stronger !If you need to moderate a thread here you can do that anytime you wish [in your bench area.}

   
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Here is a couple of scope shots from my last video.Sorry about the frame rate,but my video card just wont keep up with HD.
The first shot is of the cooktop in standby.As you can see ,we have the rectified half wave AC.Also note that the peak voltage is around 160-170 volts,which is half of the 240 volt ac supply-as it would be because we only have half the sign wave.
In the second scope shot,we have fired up the cooktop.As you can see,the voltage peak is much higher than that of the supply voltage-and we also now have a sign wave.So how exactly are we getting a voltage increase with the primary coil being heavily loaded by the one turn secondary-that being the pot of water?
   
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Here is a couple of scope shots from my last video.Sorry about the frame rate,but my video card just wont keep up with HD.
The first shot is of the cooktop in standby.As you can see ,we have the rectified half wave AC.Also note that the peak voltage is around 160-170 volts,which is half of the 240 volt ac supply-as it would be because we only have half the sign wave.
In the second scope shot,we have fired up the cooktop.As you can see,the voltage peak is much higher than that of the supply voltage-and we also now have a sign wave.So how exactly are we getting a voltage increase with the primary coil being heavily loaded by the one turn secondary-that being the pot of water?


Good question, Tinman.   
I have loaded my output BPC with an immersion heater, immersed in water.  It runs fine, heats the water, so I measure heat output using

Qheat = 4.19 * 1000g H2O * delta-temp.

Input power is measured using a Kill-a-Watt meter, Einput = 36,000 J for these tests.

Repeated tests, I'm getting ~22,000 -24,500 J on the output, so Qout/Ein = approx 60-70%.
Any suggestions?
« Last Edit: 2013-04-18, 20:00:29 by PhysicsProf »
   
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I have loaded my output BPC with an immersion heater, immersed in water.  It runs fine, heats the water, so I measure heat output using

Qheat = 4.19 * 1000g H2O * delta-temp.

A good method but don't forget the units.
   
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@tinman

What was you exactly measuring? Is it the secondary? What is the number of turns of the primary and secondary?

It's not clear for me where you was measuring the half-rectified wave. Have you the schematics?

   
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A good method but don't forget the units.

Qheat (J) = 4.19 * 1000g H2O * delta-temp (Centigrade) ,   since I used 1000ml of water; standard units.
   
Group: Guest
@tinman

What was you exactly measuring? Is it the secondary? What is the number of turns of the primary and secondary?

It's not clear for me where you was measuring the half-rectified wave. Have you the schematics?


The scope probe is hooked to the active side of the primary coil,and the secondary is the stainless steel pot that is heating water.I show the internals of the cooktop in post 341 and the video of the scope shots is on post 342.I have no schematic for this modle induction cooktop,and it would take me a day to draw one out from the circuit board.
The ground of the scope is not attached,as it is a common ground.
   

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Quote from: TinMan
The scope probe is hooked to the active side of the primary coil...

As an alternative to hooking the scope probe
directly to the active side of the coil you may
wish to try inductive pickup:

Fashion a small coil about 1 inch in diameter of
one or two turns and connect the scope probe leads
to the coil.  Then place this coil in close proximity
to the Induction Cooker output coil to sample some
of the RF output.  You'll have to adjust the scope
input sensitivity accordingly as the pickup will be
relatively low voltage.  If all goes well this should
provide a clearer image of the RF Envelope produced
by the Induction Cooker.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
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exnihiloest said:

"I gave strong technical arguments that the resonance is not significant in the gegene."


OK, now we're making some progress!   We've come a long way from:

"there is no resonance to speak of"

to admitting that there is resonance, but its not significant.  We'll discuss the significance in lesson #2.


In the mean time. what' significant in all of this, is your lack of technical ability when it comes to understanding circuits, and your disporportionate ego in relation to it.  You've been making fun of people all along since you joined this forum, and now you are at the receiving end of ridicule.  I'm simply serving you your own dish.

Bon appetite!

EM

 
   

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Frequency equals matter...


Buy me a drink
The dish of revenge is best served cold.


---------------------------
   
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exnihiloest said:

"I gave strong technical arguments that the resonance is not significant in the gegene."

OK, now we're making some progress!

Yes but I have had to write so many posts for that you begin to understand!

Quote
 We've come a long way from:

"there is no resonance to speak of"

Finally I take back what I said, your understanding is not yet acquired: you mix details of realization with principle of functioning. The question of resonance was only about the principle of functioning of the gegene, as it could be with Tesla's resonant transmitter, not about an accessory intermediate circuit for the positive feedback of the IGBT, that can even be made otherwise for the same result (control signal instead of self-oscillator), obvious sign that resonance is marginal, not indispensable here.


Quote
what' significant in all of this, is your lack of technical ability when it comes to understanding circuits, and your disporportionate ego in relation to it.  You've been making fun of people all along since you joined this forum, and now you are at the receiving end of ridicule.  I'm simply serving you your own dish.

Bon appetite!

You should postulate for the gutter press, they need people like you to misinform and discredit.

Your wishful thinking is impressive. After OU where it is not, or resonance, it is now about people. Such a blind faith in products of imagination has never been seen since the Bernadette Soubirous's apparitions.
 ;D

   
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Finally I take back what I said, your understanding is not yet acquired: you mix details of realization with principle of functioning. The question of resonance was only about the principle of functioning of the gegene.
 
Exn-The question was never just about the GEGENE setup,the question of resonance that you put forth your argument was about the induction cooker itself.
Where this question of resonance started was post 110 by dumped-Quote: As an electronic device, the Induction Cooker
is not really unique.  It makes use of the well
established principles of LC resonance and
near field loading of a Tank to induce eddy
currents into metallic surfaces.

Your reply was post 112 Quote: No, it doesn't.
Post 115 by Dumped Quote: Perhaps you'd care to elaborate?
Your reply post 119 Quote: There is nothing to elaborate.
The electronics is known. The typical schematics of induction heaters have already been presented here and you can get them every where on Internet.
Where do you see "resonance"?!

So this is where it started Exn,and had nothing to do with the GEGENE at the time.It was about resonance within the induction cooker.
   
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Yes but I have had to write so many posts...

Who was holding a gun to your head? You didn't HAVE to write any. You could have been
working on, and testing an implementation instead of arguing about how many angels
can dance on the end of a pin head.
   

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TinMan,

Somehow I'd missed it, but you've already
done the inductive pickup loop in one of your
videos.


Excellent job!

It illustrates well the damped oscillation
with the lop-sided envelope.  The driven
half-cycles of the oscillations being more
powerful than the free-wheeling half cycles
and varying in amplitude with the line
voltage.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
Group: Guest
TinMan,

Somehow I'd missed it, but you've already
done the inductive pickup loop in one of your
videos.


Excellent job!

It illustrates well the damped oscillation
with the lop-sided envelope.  The driven
half-cycles of the oscillations being more
powerful than the free-wheeling half cycles
and varying in amplitude with the line
voltage.
My next post wat to make you aware of this,but you have beat me to it.
The next thing to do would be to make sure the watt meter is reading correctly-as pointed out to me by ION.The induction cooktop i have is a 2000 watt modle,and on it's highest setting while boiling water it draws 2003 watts acording to the watt meter-so it should be very close to right.But i will do some test anyway,so as we can see the sign wave the watt meter is trying to read.
   
Group: Guest
Exn-The question was never just about the GEGENE setup,the question of resonance that you put forth your argument was about the induction cooker itself.
Where this question of resonance started was post 110 by dumped-Quote: As an electronic device, the Induction Cooker
is not really unique.  It makes use of the well established principles of LC resonance and near field loading of a Tank to induce eddy currents into metallic surfaces.

I agree, Tinman, you're right. Nevertheless it doesn't change much. If resonance had been the principle of induction cookers, it had been the principle of the gegene (outside the question of OU).

The principle of an induction cooker is... induction  :) which is only eddy currents, and eddy currents don't imply resonance. The metal to heat acts as a secondary coil+load coupled to the coil inside the cooker. This is a transformer. A transformer doesn't need to be resonant to work and generally, it's not.

   
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