Naudin's Gegene

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Author Topic: Naudin's Gegene (Read 214421 times)

EMdevices	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #300 on: 2013-04-09, 10:40:45 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	exnihiloest Quote If the secondary coil is not connected to a load, its presence is invisible to the primary coil, because there is no current in the coil. If a resistance is connected, then the primary coil sees a resistance. you have a very simplistic view of transformers like I mentioned already, you're treating them as IDEAL and this is not an IDEAL world. I told you a few posts back, that there is INDUCTANCE involved which needs to be considered (and inter winding capacitance as well). For your information, when you connect a resistance to the transformer secondary, the primary sees this resistance AND the secondary inductance, in addition to its primary side impedance. While nothing is connected to the secondary, looking into the primary terminal of the transformer, the impedance is composed of the primary inductance AND the primary resistance of the coil (and parallel capacitance between the turns, but it can be ignored if its effects are considered minor at a given frequency) Are you having trouble believing this? Well, here's a question to help you: Why do you think a transformer, not loaded on its output and left in the wall socket (electrical outlet of the house), does not draw the amount of power equal to V^2/R, where R is the primary resistance? why do you think that is? It's because it has inductance on the primary coil, and lots of it, and this increases the impedance Z = wL + R, so it's not just R you need to think about. Psychology: So, you continue to demonstrated to the group your beginner's level of electronics. I would say it is you that is suffering from that Dunning-Kruger symptom, of which you accused me. If you want to learn something new and expand your knowledge, put aside your pride and arrogance, and carefully consider what others are saying. Don't pretend to be a teacher of electronics on this forum, you set the standard very low! EM

BEP	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #301 on: 2013-04-09, 11:11:23 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: exnihiloest on 2013-04-09, 08:30:55 Not even. If the secondary coil is not connected to a load, its presence is invisible to the primary coil, because there is no current in the coil. If a resistance is connected, then the primary coil sees a resistance. A secondary coil without resistance is viewed from the primary only if there is a current (thanks to the Lenz law). This can be the case if there is a reactive component (capacitor/inductance) looping the coil. The natural capacitance of the coil could play this role, but here it is very weak and constitutes a rather high impedance at the working frequency around 20 Khz. I will submit on that in the case the experimenter is limited to the average measurement equipment and experience. Yes, a secondary with no current will have no apparent effect upon the primary. Quote It's what I said in other words. It's clear that the load is in parallel with the secondary coil. The secondary coil being coupled to the primary, the load is equivalently in parallel with the primary coil meaning that it is as connected to the IGBT output (see the equivalent schematic of a transformer), its value has just to be adjusted according to the ratio of the number of turns primary/secondary, which is near 1. It must be recalled that a perfect transformer with 1:1 ratio is for AC signals strictly identical to no transformer at all, i.e. input directly connected to the output. There is no particular "peak current". What we observe, outside the alleged but not confirmed OU, is nothing more than an ordinary transformer with a ratio of turns near 1 and the voltage at the secondary about the same as at the primary, not only from the viewpoint of the voltage, but also from the viewpoint of the shape, meaning that there is no "LC" effect selecting and enhancing a resonant frequency. As nothing shows a behaviour different from that of an ordinary transformer and nobody gave us the experimental evidence that the functioning is different from an ordinary transformer, a resonance must be discarded. In the most recent video, graciously provided by tinman, the dynamics of this system are clear. Perhaps a better way to explain it is this: Even real transformers can and do become resonant mechanically and electrically. If you cannot see how C_SR and L are cyclically switched between the states of series and parallel RLC and how the stack of C_SRs partially emulate the missing half of an H-bridge I must suggest that you try to expand a bit from the ideal. A real transformer may also be part of a resonant circuit. A real resonant circuit may be, and commonly is, used as a transformer.

tinman	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #302 on: 2013-04-09, 11:45:46 »
Group: Guest	And now there's cake !! right $:-\$ ?!! What i am going to do next is make a new BPC and a single wound PC,with the same number of turns and made from the same wire.I am yet to see on the GEGENE setup anyone showing that there is an actual advantage in using a BPC.I have experimented in looking at the difference in magnetic pull force between a BPC and a single wound PC of the same wire and turns,and the BPC indeed have more pull force than that of the single wound PC-using the same current.But now it would be a good time to see if there is any electrical advantage.

BEP	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #303 on: 2013-04-09, 12:17:18 »
Group: Guest	You can bet there is no cake, yet. If I know the diners it may go to after dinner drinks but we'll never make it to desert Don't discount the planar/spiral coil of single plane. If you understand that North/South are only a human construct there is practically no difference between a planar and solenoid coil. However, there are instances where operation becomes completely unintuitive. ~~Increasing~~ Decreasing the windings can result in LOWER resonant frequency and vise-verse. Proper application can show that Lenz/Faraday does not apply but then, there is no induction They can be used as both a transformer and a resonant circuit at the same time (the same applies to any transformer but more so with planar coils of single plane). An example is the poorly named Tesla transformer. Out of resonance it is a very poor transformer. In resonance, transformer efficiencies can exceed 85% and this is when the polarities between the primary and secondary are perpendicular. (solenoid coil magnetic field is axial where planar -single plane- coil field is radial). All of this great fun is certainly in full living color - not black and white

exnihiloest	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #304 on: 2013-04-09, 12:33:58 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: EMdevices on 2013-04-09, 10:40:45 exnihiloest you have a very simplistic view of transformers... Psychology: ... I certainly not underestimate the real limits of transformers, I have many times insisted about the fact that things in real life are not as in ideal life, I have even provided elsewhere the equivalent schematic of a real transformer. Here it is again: A real experience in electronics would have allowed you to know that the coefficient of mutual induction of a transformer can easily exceed 0.95 so that the effect of Xs and Xp are by far not enough to show a significant resonance at the working frequency, especially when the transformer is loaded and when a possible resonant frequency obtained from these values would be considerably much higher than the working frequency. EM, you must know that neither the presence of L or C in a circuit nor the presence of Xs and Xp is enough to speak of resonance. You was unable to do the math and estimate the Q factor of the resonance, unable to quantify anything, unable to give the resonance frequency, not even able to use the data from JLN which are indeed clear about the absence of resonance for reasons already explained. Your attempt to discredit an opponent on a technical question rather than discussing the facts, added to the total absence of data and of quantified points in your argumentation, is the evidence of the irrelevance and the drastic lacunae of your mental fabrication. « Last Edit: 2013-04-09, 18:16:11 by exnihiloest »

tinman	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #305 on: 2013-04-09, 13:09:06 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2013-04-09, 12:17:18 You can bet there is no cake, yet. If I know the diners it may go to after dinner drinks but we'll never make it to desert Give me a hunk of steel rod,and i will machine up a cam shaft for you.Give me a box of bit's,and i will make you an internal combustion engine. Ask me to tell you exactly what the scope is telling me,and you will get this- $:-\$ My point was,as some one that is just basic at reading scope's and wishes to understand how exactly the system he is working on opperate's-it is very dificult when the teachers are saying two different thing's.The biggest problem being that the teachers are all well trained.The bad thing is,if you follow the wrong teacher you may well end up passing by something that was truely important.If i was to look at this situation here as a mechanic,i would have to go with EMdevices-because one pistion dose not fit all engine's.I guess what i was hopeing for with my last video,was that some one would be able to confirm that there was or was not a resonance within the system as a whole-this will ofcourse also carry with it the argument of what is resonance $:-\$ .Now here in Australia it is 240 volts ac grid supply,and this is rectified within the cooktop.We can clearly see this half wave in the scope,but why do we see a much higher voltage in phase with that half wave,but of the opposite polarity?.As the high frequency pulses are within the 100Hz half wave(as we are 50 Hz here)this must mean that the high frequency pulses are riseing and faling in voltage within each half wave cycle-as we see no voltage outside the half wave 100Hz AC.Is the higher reverse voltage being created by the kickback from the switching off of the cooktop coil,or is it a result of the way the caps are hooked up in the circuit?.And what was with that wave form when i had it hooked to the hydroxy cell?.It looked like some sort of clam shell wave.

exnihiloest	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #306 on: 2013-04-09, 13:29:19 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2013-04-09, 11:11:23 ... Even real transformers can and do become resonant mechanically and electrically. ... They can but it's not because they can that they do it. The data from JLN don't show signs of resonance. Or which and why?

Chet K	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #307 on: 2013-04-09, 13:50:50 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	These Spanish Inns don't serve Dessert?? [no cake] HHMMM I do see they Have Pancakes thoooo... @EX you think Tinmans Pancakes are not cooked well enough?? they don't resonate with you ?? You want JLN pancakes?? stop !! be adventurous Look at Tinmans pancakes what do you see?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO8CFzjv8-M

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #308 on: 2013-04-09, 13:58:32 »
Group: Guest	Here is what I think. From a scale from 0-100. 0 being perfectly non resonance 100 being perfectly resonance What is the number for the cooker under load as discussing? We can't say 0 or 100 in the real world. One side is saying it's like 1. The other side saying might as well say it 0.

Paul-R	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #309 on: 2013-04-09, 16:11:28 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: tinman on 2013-04-09, 11:45:46 I am yet to see on the GEGENE setup anyone showing that there is an actual advantage in using a BPC. This is the explanatory video recommended by Jean-Louis on his Gegene site: http://www.youtube.com/embed/mvb39SwTXBE

Chet K	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #310 on: 2013-04-09, 16:46:41 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	GEEZE Paul the Koala gets so much well deserved "air time",I suppose the issue of resonance has morphed into an issue of credibility ...[rather unfortunate] The Tinman has made no claims whatsoever ,he is just trying to understand what he's looking at. I must say this experience [Pancakes] and the issues being discussed here will ultimately make us all much better in the work we do. Ex's points are Valid [of course],however the need to be right [like a court case] seems to undermine the goal of sharing the knowledge necessary to Teach .......in this particular case the lesson has been mauled by EGO,,,, However the lesson will get thru one way or the other,mostly do to the work ethic ,willingness to share, tenacity, humble approach and Brutal Honesty of Mr.Tinman and in this particular instance Tinsel's input is well mentioned [has been before] . I just hope we can stay away from angry responses and try to remember there is a lesson here and a true opportunity to "enlighten" thx Chet

Paul-R	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #311 on: 2013-04-09, 16:55:50 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: ramset on 2013-04-09, 16:46:41 GEEZE Paul the Koala gets so much well deserved "air time",I suppose the issue of resonance has morphed into an issue of credibility ...[rather unfortunate] The Tinman has made no claims whatsoever ,he is just trying to understand what he's looking at. I must say this experience [Pancakes] and the issues being discussed here will ultimately make us all much better in the work we do. Ex's points are Valid [of course],however the need to be right [like a court case] seems to undermine the goal of sharing the knowledge necessary to Teach .......in this particular case the lesson has been mauled by EGO,,,, However the lesson will get thru one way or the other,mostly do to the work ethic ,willingness to share, tenacity, humble approach and Brutal Honesty of Mr.Tinman and in this particular instance Tinsel's input is well mentioned [has been before] . I just hope we can stay away from angry responses and try to remember there is a lesson here and a true opportunity to "enlighten" thx Chet You are very reasonable. I would kick some off the list for a month and improve things for everyone who seriously wants to get stuff done. The trouble is that narrow minded bigotry can drive others away.

exnihiloest	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #312 on: 2013-04-09, 17:31:28 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: ramset on 2013-04-09, 13:50:50 These Spanish Inns don't serve Dessert?? [no cake] Yes they serve dessert. You just have to bring it Quote HHMMM I do see they Have Pancakes thoooo... @EX you think Tinmans Pancakes are not cooked well enough?? they don't resonate with you ?? You want JLN pancakes?? stop !! be adventurous Look at Tinmans pancakes what do you see?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO8CFzjv8-M Youtube without shematics is of poor help. My understanding of the spoken english is not good enough and the automatic subtitles don't work correctly. I see signals but I don't even know if a load is connected. If there is no load but just the scope probes, it's not astonishing that there would be resonance (possibly at Mhz). « Last Edit: 2013-04-09, 18:02:14 by exnihiloest »

PhysicsProf	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #313 on: 2013-04-09, 18:46:22 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	Because of the heat generated by the bulbs at high watts, I have gone to a new light box that is in some ways simpler than the aluminum-foil lined cardboard box I have been using for months. Using now a 22-gallon shiny "garbage can" with lid. It works well, and I've been doing both calibrations (with 200W bulbs) along with some experiments with the Gegene set-up. Learning. Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxbrFxcEdNI&feature=youtu.be Description: Quote My current replication of the Gegene experiment is shown (google Gegene Naudin), with a Bifilar Pancake Coil (BPC) atop an induction cooktop. BPC output is fed to four 200W incandescent bulbs in the "light box" with lux-meter. Note: I meant to say about 1200 Lux for this particular experiment. In this way, we have a measure of light output as a function of input power to the induction device. Thus, we can tell when we are making improvements in efficiency.

Chet K	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #314 on: 2013-04-09, 19:33:32 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	@Ex I will attempt to resolve this Language issue with the TinMan's movies and illegible Subtitles ,I know he would take great pleasure in having me Type out all his Comments for those who need the info ! A barrier such as this can cause much unnecessary conflict and I completely understand the dilemma ! Your comment on this matter is greatly appreciated ,as is your input ! @Physics Prof Very nice looking test Vessel ,{snazzy even} Unfortunately My Test vessel never ends up staying so Clean around here!! Thanks for all you do!! Chet

BEP	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #315 on: 2013-04-09, 21:46:59 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2013-04-09, 13:58:32 Here is what I think. From a scale from 0-100. 0 being perfectly non resonance 100 being perfectly resonance What is the number for the cooker under load as discussing? We can't say 0 or 100 in the real world. One side is saying it's like 1. The other side saying might as well say it 0. tinman's scope shot show the cooker coil/caps are 100% quasi-resonant because only 50% of the signal (the bottom half) is the natural exchange between the coil and capacitors. If you were to make a mirror image of the bottom half, invert it and then connect it so the result is a nice sine wave you would see the resonant frequency of the coil and capacitors. Note: that frequency would be higher than the driven frequency. We have the pendulum swinging but only pushed from the middle of the swinging distance and only pushed in one direction. (disregard the stopping point to avoid confusion ). No matter. Resonance or not will have no effect upon the final outcome. >>Edit Here is what I suggested with the picture so you can determine the resonant frequency IF the trigger circuit wasn't controlling one half of the wave... Note: The width will not match as the trigger circuit is firing at a lower frequency than the natural resonant frequency of the coil & cap. The amplitude of the lower side is higher because it is a natural exchange of current between the coil & cap. The voltage amplitude is determined by the energy stored in the coil and the cap value (or vise verse), not the driving voltage or mains voltage. It would naturally be higher. ------------------------ Naudin's Gegene Mirror.jpg (17.9 kB, 257x239 - viewed 770 times.) « Last Edit: 2013-04-10, 23:06:06 by WaveWatcher »

tinman	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #316 on: 2013-04-10, 12:27:40 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2013-04-09, 18:46:22 Because of the heat generated by the bulbs at high watts, I have gone to a new light box that is in some ways simpler than the aluminum-foil lined cardboard box I have been using for months. Using now a 22-gallon shiny "garbage can" with lid. It works well, and I've been doing both calibrations (with 200W bulbs) along with some experiments with the Gegene set-up. Learning. Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxbrFxcEdNI&feature=youtu.be Description: Now that is a good idea with the trash can PhysicsProf,very cheap but effective.Thanks for the info,it just made my job a whole lot easier.

EMdevices	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #317 on: 2013-04-12, 14:28:24 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Quote from: exnihiloest on 2013-04-09, 12:33:58 I certainly not underestimate the real limits of transformers, I have many times insisted about the fact that things in real life are not as in ideal life, I have even provided elsewhere the equivalent schematic of a real transformer. Here it is again: A real experience in electronics would have allowed you to know that the coefficient of mutual induction of a transformer can easily exceed 0.95 so that the effect of Xs and Xp are by far not enough to show a significant resonance at the working frequency, especially when the transformer is loaded and when a possible resonant frequency obtained from these values would be considerably much higher than the working frequency. EM, you must know that neither the presence of L or C in a circuit nor the presence of Xs and Xp is enough to speak of resonance. The presence of L and C in the schematic of the drive circuit is exactly why this is resonant, it's by design and the operating point! Why do you think it is called a resonant converter? Because it is driven at the resonant frequency, by the electronics. (ZVS drive, look that up) You don't need to calculate anything to realize this, just look at the circuit and the waveform. The primary coil inside the cooker and the added capacitors form the tank circuit (look at tinman's circuit schematic, that's what all my comments are based on) Regarding the high mutual coupling, I told you already that because the secondary is loaded and closely coupled, the Q of the tank circuit is lowered, but maybe this confuses you: you think the resonance should stop because Q is low, right? but resonance is still there because the primary coil tank circuit is still driven at resonance. So remember, it's not the secondary coil that is resonant, like in a Tesla coil, because it's just a coil with a load resistance, the resonance is on the primary. I think this is why you might be confused. EM « Last Edit: 2013-04-13, 00:08:58 by EMdevices »

exnihiloest	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #318 on: 2013-04-13, 09:34:35 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: EMdevices on 2013-04-12, 14:28:24 The presence of L and C in the schematic of the drive circuit is exactly why this is resonant, it's by design and the operating point! ... No resonance in Naudin's Gegene. I'm still waiting from you for quantified informations about: - the resonant frequency - the order of magnitude of the Q factor - the mesurable quantities (voltage, current) that would discriminate a resonant functioning from a non resonant one. ... As you are still unable to give them despite several requests, the obvious conclusion is that your fuzzy speech is in no way related to the gegene and is as irrefutable as a Quran surah.

Paul-R	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #319 on: 2013-04-13, 14:20:13 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: exnihiloest on 2013-04-13, 09:34:35 No resonance in Naudin's Gegene. I'm still waiting from you for quantified informations about: - the resonant frequency - the order of magnitude of the Q factor Why do people bother to respond to this person? It feeds him. .

EMdevices	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #320 on: 2013-04-13, 15:18:04 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Paul-R I don't know, maybe because I'm bored. exnihiloest I guess you're more clueless than I though, if you don't know what frequency were talking about by now. Do you know what " frequency of operation" means? For example, JNL tests run at 20 kHz, that's the resonant frequency of his cooker. If we know the inductance or capacitance, we can calculate the other missing quantity. But I did not see such values or schematic on his website. If you have the time, find them and I'll teach you how to calculate more exact values of the Q However, lets make some approximation for the inductance: assume L=100e-6 H Therefore Xl=2 pi f L = 12.5 ohms, at 20 kHz Let's consider the load. In one test JNL used about 4000 watts load (ref 240 V) That is about 14 ohms resistance. So we're dealing with a Q on the order of 1 Operating with such a Q the voltage does not build up higher. Now, what calculations have you done to arrive at your conclusion that there is no resonance to speak of? I asked you if you have heard of a resonant converter, and because you did not answer me, I conclude you do not, and so you speak of things you do not understand, and form opinions to soon which you can't defend. You are self deceived, you have a confidence that you are correct and others wrong, when its the other way around. I gave you an opportunity to save face in my previous post, but you did not recognize it. I'm curious what copy and paste you're going to do next, off the Internet, to convince us you know electronics. EM « Last Edit: 2013-04-13, 17:07:21 by EMdevices »

muDped	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #321 on: 2013-04-13, 18:33:41 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	Quote from: exnihiloest I'm still waiting from you for quantified informations about: - the resonant frequency - the order of magnitude of the Q factor - the mesurable quantities (voltage, current) that would discriminate a resonant functioning from a non resonant one. Quote from: Paul-R Why do people bother to respond to this person? It feeds him. You raise an excellent point Paul-R. It would seem that Ex has unwittingly, or perhaps wittingly, adopted the stall tactics of the "charlatians." Is it a case of "being in over his head?" Once an error in judgment has been voiced it becomes a matter of pride - some are not able to admit to the obvious since, to them, it would signify defeat. The only option then is to continue to defend the erroneous argument while demanding that those who disagree do all of the "leg work" to prove him wrong. Clearly, Ex has the faculties and the education to easily accomplish that on his own and to prove that resonance is an essential to the "conversion" taking place. But then there would be that awful matter of having to admit being wrong... Quote from: EMdevices to Ex I gave you an opportunity to save face in my previous post, but you did not recognize it. I'm curious what copy and paste you're going to do next, off the Internet, to convince us you know electronics. What it yet to come may be very interesting. --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

exnihiloest	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #322 on: 2013-04-14, 11:16:48 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: EMdevices on 2013-04-13, 15:18:04 ... For example, JNL tests run at 20 kHz, that's the resonant frequency of his cooker. The working frequency is the consequence of the time delay of the positive feedback. This doesn't imply resonance! Even a RC circuit can make transistors to oscillate. Quote If we know the inductance or capacitance, we can calculate the other missing quantity. We are not in the "if" world. Missing quantities are the capacitance and the frequency. Only one equation and two unknowns. Quote So we're dealing with a Q on the order of 1 I agree. Of course Q is on the order of 1!!! Q=2pi(energy stored/energy dissipated) per cycle. Q=1 means that energy stored < 1/6th of the energy dissipated = no significant resonance. Q=1 means that the "resonance" will sustain 1 or 2 periods! At such a low level of Q, "resonance" is an overrated word that can't be pretended to be the cause of the functioning: nobody pretends that the resonance is the cause of the functioning of an ordinary transformer although it has a Q near 1. EM, your understanding of the resonance and its practical significance is as flat as the gegene's alleged resonance. I conclude the same for Paul R and Dumped who supported it.

tinman	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #323 on: 2013-04-14, 12:57:08 »
Group: Guest	Here is a good read about resonance within a quasi resonant circuit-amoung others as well.It would seem that the word resonance applies to a much wider range than just that of gaining maximum amplitude for minimum input.It seems it's more about timing the switching just right to reduce switching losses-maybe it could be called resonant switching insted?. http://www.deltartp.com/dpel/dpeltechjournals/IJE%20tran-vol77-no5-1994.pdf

BEP	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #324 on: 2013-04-14, 13:18:41 »
Group: Guest	Why are we saying that Q=1 is not resonant when Q<1/2 equals overdamped, Q=1/2 equals critically damped and Q>1/2 equals under damped? When any single excitation pulse is applied and the circuit response is to : 1. fall to zero and stop -- then Q<1/2 2. fall to zero, continue beyond zero to the same amplitude of the excitation pulse and then return to zero -- then Q=1/2 3. fall to zero, continue beyond zero with the amplitude greater than the excitation pulse -- then Q is greater than 1/2 The capacitance values are on the posted schematics. The resonant frequencies can be read from the posted scope shots. The same scope shots show the ringing amplitude as greater than the excitation pulse. The excitation pulse masks the top half of the resonant ringing. That frequency is slightly higher than the excitation frequency. The resonant frequency being different from the excitation frequency is not an indication of non-resonance. If Q is one half or greater then resonance exists. Q has nothing to do with quality. The letter 'Q' was chosen because it was the only one left. Exercising frequency control of an RLC circuit, by any means, does not mean the circuit is resonant or not resonant.

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