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Author Topic: Naudin's Gegene  (Read 214440 times)
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Not here?  why not?

I already explained why the voltage does not build up much, and why you don't see a sine, etc, with a low Q circuit.   Ponder it some more before shooting off another post.  But I think you're starting to get it, the Q is very low, and Yes, very relevant for loaded circuits like the induction cooker.
...

Very low Q = almost no resonance = resonance irrelevant to explain the functioning of the gegene. The term "resonance" is misleading with very low Q circuits.

Now, there were 3 questions and you answered only one (nevertheless enough to discard the resonance).


   
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Quote
The term "resonance" is misleading with very low Q circuits.

only for people like you who thought they knew something about it, but were limited in their knowledge.

I hope you learned something new today!  You're welcome.


EM
   
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only for people like you who thought they knew something about it, but were limited in their knowledge.

I hope you learned something new today!  You're welcome.


EM

Finally I can reformulate what you are saying, EM:
"No frequency, no overvoltage, no sine wave. Indeed there is resonance but we can't see it, it is so weak!"
;D

I agree with you that the resonance in the Naudin's gegene is like the pink unicorn in the forests.

   
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...
We're supposed to be on the same team guys. Right?  O0

A group is not a team. A team needs a leader. A leader is not someone neutral. A leader shows the direction and takes sides.

A group is informal. Imho the scientific communauty works like groups rather than teams with a leader, but everybody is supposed to have about the same level of competence, to share the basis, and to discuss only what is said, not the competence of the others. Our group is too heterogeneous to be of this kind. Same thing for the other groups about "free energy" that I have seen.

As long as the method of saying anything without providing any scientific or technical justification be tolerated, there is little hope to make a real and efficient working group. A common goal is not enough, we need also to share the methods.

   
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Finally what you are saying, EM, is:
"No frequency, no overvoltage, no sine wave. Indeed there is resonance but we can't see it, it is so weak!"
;D

I agree with you that the resonance in the Naudin's gegene is like the pink unicorn in the forests.



Two problems:

1. The load is an added secondary coil having a resistive load. This negates the intended operational design containing the use of any form of resonance and should not show a maximum of voltage or sine waves.

2. With the pot, it would be resonant but will continue to be denied because a voltage increase and sine across the RLC is considered to be proof of resonance when the opposite evidence should be sought since the resonant circuit is series RLC. This circuit will exhibit minimum resistance and maximum current at resonance not minimum current and maximum voltage and also should not show a maximum voltage of sine waves when measuring across the RLC.


The measurement and scope reading methods displayed in this thread seem to indicate a possible misunderstanding of the above.




  
   
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Finally I can reformulate what you are saying, EM:

"No frequency, no overvoltage, no sine wave. Indeed there is resonance but we can't see it, it is so weak!"
 ;D

I agree with you that the resonance in the Naudin's gegene is like the pink unicorn in the forests.

Don't try to reformulate what I'm saying cause you do a poor job at it, because of your limited understanding of electronics and I'm sure limited comprehension of the English language.   You are the one living in a pink unicorn world, you damn prick.

I suggest you study tinman's schmatic of the cooker, and ask yourself why the design utilizes capacitors around the coil, what role they play, etc.   Work out the impedance, with and without a pot loading down the coil, if you claim you know electronics.  

EM
   
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Tinman;

Your loaded secondary coil tells all about what is happening on the primary coil of the induction heater.

Anyone who can properly interpret the waveform you show knows  the solution to the "resonance vs. non resonance" issue of the cooker.

Hint: 1) The internal cooker inductor is charged (semiconductor switch closed, ramp up portion of the waveform, rising from left to right)
        2) The semiconductor switch is opened (energy release to the secondary coil, nearly flat top portion of the waveform) we can see this from the very fast rise of voltage after the ramp up, thin short vertical line.
        3) The cycle repeats after all energy is drained from the inductor (flat top plus long downward sloping line)

I'll stay out of arguments, I just try to interpret waveforms.

ION,

I'm not sure I fully agree with number 2)  Are you thinking a boost converter perhaps?, this architecture is different, see tinmen's schematic.


It is a half bridge drive (push pull)  and it switches at the zero crossings,  (labeled A and B) in the diagram.   So when one switch turns OFF the other turns ON

In between A and B we have the R L C response, which gives the waveform the approximate sinusoidal shape.  

That's why this waveform screams out to everybody:   I'm RESONANT, look at me I'm RESONANTING! :D

EM  

PS  It is not quite perfect sinusoidal because it is heavily loaded, because the R value is quite low, and there are some switching transients.
« Last Edit: 2013-04-08, 03:25:10 by EMdevices »
   
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Tonight i will make a video of many scope shot's on different load's.The one thing we seem to be doing here is looking at each individual pulse,rather than a string of pulses within each half wave cycle from the 50Hz grid supply.I will simply show what the scope is seeing,and let the more advanced scope reader's tell us what is going on.But to me,it would seem that if the load were only a resistive load-then we should see nothing but that half wave cycle on the scope.But if there is inductance,we should see a mirror of that half wave on the -0 volt side.If that voltage on the reverse side is higher than the forward side of the half wave AC-what dose this mean?
   
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If that voltage on the reverse side is higher than the forward side of the half wave AC-what dose this mean?

That action should be due the resonant convertor being 'half-wave'. The bottom half is from the unswitched exchange of energy in the reverse direction. Other non-clean sine wave results are due to the 'resonant tank' being a parallel RLC tank for a very small portion of the cycle and the intrinsic diodes of the IGBT conducting for a short portion of the half cycle beginning when both halves of the totem-pole IGBT assembly are OFF. During that phase, the IGBT snubber caps (CS) supply some stored energy to the CSR( I assume 'capacitance series resonant or capacitance suppressor resonant). When either half is ON the resonant tank is a series RLC tank.

I'm looking forward to further scope shots. There should be a very noticeable difference between wave shapes of -secondary coil loaded with a resistor- and -a ferrous cook pot. The iron introduces hysteresis. Either has an effect upon the impedance of the primary coil albeit for very short periods. A nice clean sine wave is impossible in this application except when the circuit is allowed to ring-down.
 
BTW: The usage of 'tank' in this context is technically wrong. It seems to be growing in popularity with everyone except RF engineers but I use it here as it appears to be local lingo.
   
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Two problems:

1. The load is an added secondary coil having a resistive load. This negates the intended operational design containing the use of any form of resonance and should not show a maximum of voltage or sine waves.

False: a coil is not a "load". Its impedance is only reactive.

Quote
2. With the pot, it would be resonant but will continue to be denied because a voltage increase and sine across the RLC is considered to be proof of resonance when the opposite evidence should be sought since the resonant circuit is series RLC. This circuit will exhibit minimum resistance and maximum current at resonance not minimum current and maximum voltage and also should not show a maximum voltage of sine waves when measuring across the RLC.

False: the load is not in series with the LC circuit but in parallel with L.

It's obvious that the lower the load resistance, the lower the Q of the circuit provided that there would be a resonance (what also is false), the limit being Q=0 when R=0.


   
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Don't try to reformulate what I'm saying cause you do a poor job at it, because of your limited understanding of electronics and I'm sure limited comprehension of the English language.   You are the one living in a pink unicorn world, you damn prick.

I suggest you study tinman's schmatic of the cooker, and ask yourself why the design utilizes capacitors around the coil, what role they play, etc.   Work out the impedance, with and without a pot loading down the coil, if you claim you know electronics.  

EM

EM, still not able to say what are the signs of a resonance here? Not able to say what is the frequency of resonance? Not able to say why we don't have a sine signal? Not able to say why there is no overvoltage in comparison with the power voltage source?
When one is unable to indicate the least sign of resonance, the only correct attitude is to not claim it and to learn the basis of electronics.

   
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EM, still not able to say what are the signs of a resonance here? Not able to say what is the frequency of resonance? Not able to say why we don't have a sine signal? Not able to say why there is no overvoltage in comparison with the power voltage source?
When one is unable to indicate the least sign of resonance, the only correct attitude is to not claim it and to learn the basis of electronics.



I already explained most of these things, but obviously you did not understand, however i gave you no answer on the frequency since I thought it was obvious what waveform we are talking about.  

Well, lets see how obvious it is.  You should be able to recognize the frequency with all that training you have in software radios, if its true. ( but i quizzed you and you didn't know squat so I'm not expecting much from you anymore.)

Ok, I'll give you another chance to prove you know something.  Look at tinemen's waveform, reposted above, and tell me what is the frequency, if each horizontal division is let's say 10 ms.    Also, how many cycles are shown?

After you manage this simple task then will talk more about what formed that waveform and how resonance plays a part.

I give you plenty of time with this question and its open book as well.   :D

EM

« Last Edit: 2013-04-08, 11:18:31 by EMdevices »
   
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False: a coil is not a "load". Its impedance is only reactive.

False: the load is not in series with the LC circuit but in parallel with L.

It's obvious that the lower the load resistance, the lower the Q of the circuit provided that there would be a resonance (what also is false), the limit being Q=0 when R=0.




Ex,

I do not think you to be an evil person so I will attribute that response to a language barrier.
   
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I already explained most of these things, but obviously you did not understand
...

There is not one measurement showing the least clue of resonance here.
From the beginning, you are not able to point objective facts supporting a resonance.
In science, explanations apply only to what is observed.
Explanations about no fact are only gibberish. You could also give explanations about the sex of angels, it would be as useless.

   
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Ex,

I do not think you to be an evil person so I will attribute that response to a language barrier.

Ww, what do you challenge in:
"a coil is not a "load". Its impedance is only reactive."
and
"the load is not in series with the LC circuit but in parallel with L" (meanig R lower => Q lower, unlike when R is in series).
?

   
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The photo shows a light-box with 4 200W incandescent light bulbs, taking power measurements using an Intertek power meter and a Kill-a-Watt meter.
Light output is measured with a lux-meter.  I found that the lux meter saturates, so I have covered part of the input window with tape and aluminum foil, to get into the normal range of operation.   I have also run with 2 200W bulbs and 2 300W bulbs.

Needless to say, the box gets hot quickly -- I may have to add a ventilation fan.

I have no illusions that this will provide a definitive final test of the Gegene, but it should provide insights.
« Last Edit: 2013-04-08, 20:27:17 by PhysicsProf »
   
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Ww, what do you challenge in:
"a coil is not a "load". Its impedance is only reactive."
and
"the load is not in series with the LC circuit but in parallel with L" (meanig R lower => Q lower, unlike when R is in series).
?



I do not challenge either of your statements. However, they indicate I wasn't clear enough or you just didn't understand my statements.

More later...
   
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I have no illusions that this will provide a definitive final test of the Gegene, but it
should provide insights.
I have managed to pick up four scrapped kettles for nothing and I reckon they
will probably work. (Recycling depots are wonderful places). Putting MOT primary
wire on the back burner and going for cheaper loudspeaker wire means I should
get these four coils wound soon.
   
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Here is some scope shots of the induction cooker running various load's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO8CFzjv8-M
   
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Quote from:  WW
The load is an added secondary coil having a resistive load
False: a coil is not a "load". Its impedance is only reactive.

This means that added secondary coil already has the resistive load connected to it as it becomes the secondary for the induction cooker.
Yes, the added secondary coil 'alone' could only appear as a change in the transformer reactance but almost no change as the secondary would be open if it did not have the resistive load connected.


Quote from: WW
2. With the pot, it would be resonant but will continue to be denied because a voltage increase and sine across the RLC is considered to be proof of resonance when the opposite evidence should be sought since the resonant circuit is series RLC. This circuit will exhibit minimum resistance and maximum current at resonance not minimum current and maximum voltage and also should not show a maximum voltage of sine waves when measuring across the RLC.

False: the load is not in series with the LC circuit but in parallel with L.

Here is where I think the problem may be more than translation.

The load is not in series or parallel with the primary. It is in parallel with the secondary but that doesn't matter. Any primary coil parameter change due to a loaded secondary is simply that - a primary coil parameter change.
In other words, the secondary coil and anything connected to it modifies the primary or 'appears' in the primary -or- appears as a change in the primary parameters.

It's obvious that the lower the load resistance, the lower the Q of the circuit provided that there would be a resonance (what also is false), the limit being Q=0 when R=0.

Do you deny that peak current through the circuit would be the point of resonance in a series RLC not peak voltage measured across it?

I have the impression that some of us may not know the difference between a series and parallel RLC and may not be able to identify a series RLC, especially when the C used is changing throughout the complete cycle due to the activity of the switching elements.

Perhaps having a switching element as part of the RLC loop is offensive in some way?

Perhaps it isn't understood that applying a similar planar coil as a secondary does not mean the two constitute a transformer throughout the complete cycle or at all frequencies. Indeed, when frequency rises to the point where the inter-coil parasitic become more important than the intra-coil parasitic the coupling is best handled with antenna theory.

If you wish to see some excellent work on this subject try this for starters: http://www.jpier.org/PIERB/pierb18/04.09081911.pdf
Contrary to common belief planar coils are different.

In any case, the previously supplied scope shots confirm oscillation. The bottom half of which may be used to determine the resonant frequency of the complete circuit at that point in the cycle. The first deviation below zero indicates a diode conducting for less than 90 degrees.
   
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tinman,

Excellent and very thorough work. I just finished watching your video.

It is a good thing you are scoping with a pick-up coil and not across the primary as the system has snubber caps but no transient clipping. The expected transients may be more than most scopes can handle without precautions.

Thanks!
   
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exnihiloest

Quote
There is not one measurement showing the least clue of resonance here.

I guess you're clueless then!    :P


EM


P.S.   I gave you an opportunity to show the forum you know how to read a waveform and figure out its frequency, why have you not answered? you can't do it? or too proud to do it?  
   
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Here is some scope shots of the induction cooker running various load's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO8CFzjv8-M

interesting, thanks for posting.
   
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exnihiloest

I guess you're clueless then!    :P

P.S.   I gave you an opportunity to show the forum you know how to read a waveform and figure out its frequency, why have you not answered? you can't do it? or too proud to do it?  

Please, in the future, go out the playground and avoid us this kind of childish silliness.

   
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This means that added secondary coil already has the resistive load connected to it as it becomes the secondary for the induction cooker.
Yes, the added secondary coil 'alone' could only appear as a change in the transformer reactance but almost no change as the secondary would be open if it did not have the resistive load connected.

Not even. If the secondary coil is not connected to a load, its presence is invisible to the primary coil, because there is no current in the coil. If a resistance is connected, then the primary coil sees a resistance.
A secondary coil without resistance is viewed from the primary only if there is a current (thanks to the Lenz law). This can be the case if there is a reactive component (capacitor/inductance) looping the coil. The natural capacitance of the coil could play this role, but here it is very weak and constitutes a rather high impedance at the working frequency around 20 Khz.

Quote
The load is not in series or parallel with the primary.
It is in parallel with the secondary but that doesn't matter. Any primary coil parameter change due to a loaded secondary is simply that - a primary coil parameter change.
In other words, the secondary coil and anything connected to it modifies the primary or 'appears' in the primary -or- appears as a change in the primary parameters.

It's what I said in other words. It's clear that the load is in parallel with the secondary coil. The secondary coil being coupled to the primary, the load is equivalently in parallel with the primary coil  meaning that it is as connected to the IGBT output (see the equivalent schematic of a transformer), its value has just to be adjusted according to the ratio of the number of turns primary/secondary, which is near 1.
It must be recalled that a perfect transformer with 1:1 ratio is for AC signals strictly identical to no transformer at all, i.e. input directly connected to the output.

Quote
Do you deny that peak current through the circuit would be the point of resonance in a series RLC not peak voltage measured across it?

There is no particular "peak current". What we observe, outside the alleged but not confirmed OU, is nothing more than an ordinary transformer with a ratio of turns near 1 and the voltage at the secondary about the same as at the primary, not only from the viewpoint of the voltage, but also from the viewpoint of the shape, meaning that there is no "LC" effect selecting and enhancing a resonant frequency. As nothing shows a behaviour different from that of an ordinary transformer and nobody gave us the experimental evidence that the functioning is different from an ordinary transformer, a resonance must be discarded.

   
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