Naudin's Gegene

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Author Topic: Naudin's Gegene (Read 214436 times)

tinman	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #250 on: 2013-04-07, 04:37:12 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: EMdevices on 2013-04-06, 19:58:56 Your thinking ideal transformer. A real transformer has inductance on the primary and secondary, interwinding capacitance, and a whole lot more. So the load reflected on the primary is not purely resistive as you say. Go review you textbooks you pretentious ignoramus. EM Agree 100% EM. Even a straight piece of wire has inductance when a current is passed through it.Also in my setup,if the secondary coil is a direct reflection as to what my primary coil is doing-then simply by looking at the scope shot that ION posted,we can see current below the 0 volt line.If the primary coil was only a resistance,then there should be no current below the 0 volt line on the scope-as the input is rectified AC.Maybe if i place a coil inside the pot of water,we could have a look at what we see on the scope?.

exnihiloest	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #251 on: 2013-04-07, 10:47:08 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: EMdevices on 2013-04-06, 19:58:56 Your thinking ideal transformer. A real transformer has inductance on the primary and secondary, interwinding capacitance, and a whole lot more. So the load reflected on the primary is not purely resistive as you say. EM Not an ideal transformer but an ordinary transformer that you are denying in despite the obviousness. Even with a coefficient of mutual induction around 0.8, what I said still applies. Resonance implies almost only reactive power which obviously doesn't exist here otherwise either the IGBT would burn or there would be an overvoltage that we don't observe: the output voltage at the secondary is about the same as the input voltage which matches the mains power voltage. Resonance also acts as a narrow passband filter at the resonance frequency, the higher the Q the narrower the band, strengthening the resonant frequency above all others so that we would observe only a sine signal that we don't observe, making impossible square signals like those coming from any switching device and that we observe here. Quote Go review you textbooks you pretentious ignoramus. Your recurrent boring and irrelevant screeds are only gibberish, confusing anything with anything, denying the experimental evidence, gargling with pretty words like "resonance" without the least intelligent and rational argument supporting the affirmations. The fact that your are now insulting me instead of trying to learn and understand basic principles of electromagnetism and electronics that are well known but fly well above your head, is likely a consequence of the Dunning-Kruger effect. With such an attitude, one can only deceive the others and remain in an intellectual mediocrity where personal progress is impossible.

exnihiloest	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #252 on: 2013-04-07, 11:00:22 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: tinman on 2013-04-07, 04:37:12 ... If the primary coil was only a resistance,then there should be no current below the 0 volt line on the scope-as the input is rectified AC. ... Is the coefficient of mutual induction strictly equal to 1? Is the load strictly resistive? Experimental defaults and limits are not a sign of a magic principle like resonance in a switching device!

tinman	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #253 on: 2013-04-07, 11:55:18 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: exnihiloest on 2013-04-07, 11:00:22 Is the coefficient of mutual induction strictly equal to 1? Is the load strictly resistive? Well this is your quote Ex-Note also that when the output coil is loaded with a resistive load and the coupling is near 1, the primary coil is viewing only a resistance. So either the output coil is equal to one,or your comment is irelavent to the setup in question.If it dose not have a 1 to 1 coupling of the primary and secondary(which i am yet to see a transformer os such) then there is still inductance.This makes your statment(Note also that when the output coil is loaded with a resistive load and the coupling is near 1, the primary coil is viewing only a resistance)only true in an ideal transformer-which we do not have here or any where else that i have seen. So what is it going to be Ex-do we have an ideal transformer where the primary coil only see's a resistance,or do we have a primary coil that also has inductance?-as EM stated.

ion	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #254 on: 2013-04-07, 13:55:57 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	In a transformer where the coupling coefficient is a bit less than one, one could make a reasonable measurement of the leakage inductance component. In a 1:1 transformer, this is easily done by wiring the transformer out of phase and measuring the residual inductance. In a reasonably coupled transformer we then find the stray inductance is at least two orders of magnitude below the open circuit inductance. Having done this, one may make a reasonable statement whether the transformer is predominately resistive or predominately inductive when terminated with a pure resistance. There is no need to argue when measurement tells the truth. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

EMdevices	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #255 on: 2013-04-07, 15:08:30 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	exnihiloest, Quote Resonance implies almost only reactive power... Quote Resonance also acts as a narrow pass-band filter at the resonance frequency... Stop exposing your ignorance fool. You have a very limited knowledge of resonance and electronics. Have you heard of the "quality factor" of a tank circuit, do you know what it means? For your information, not every resonant tank circuit implies NARROW PASS BAND, or ONLY REACTIVE POWER, because its related to how much resistance is in the tank circuit. You only have a beginners knowledge of electronics yet are overly arrogant as if you knew more, self deceived! You speak of things you don't fully understand yet think you understand, and on top of it, instead of humbly asking with humbleness for clarification, you sarcastically poke fun of people you misjudge in your ignorance. This is one of the definitions of a fool, which you certainly play well. Overconfident ego for the knowledge level it possesses. I also noticed how you talk down to so many people on this forum which know and have more experience in the science fields than you, and you especially insult Dr. Steven Jones and I don't like it. He might not be an expert in electronics, but he deserves respect for what he has accomplished in life and what he will continue to accomplish. You play the part of an arrogant Frenchmen pretty well, and you're certainly not helping change this perception of your country men. If this were my forum I would have kicked you off long time ago. EM PS, you have a negative influence on the beginners on this forum, they are afraid to post their work because of your harsh and sarcastic judgement. You seem to be here only to fulfill your inner desire to criticize others for their lack of knowledge, when they are learning and having fun experimenting with electronics. I see more insulting posts from you then nice affirmative posts. You need to treat your condition elsewhere. « Last Edit: 2013-04-07, 15:40:28 by EMdevices »

exnihiloest	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #256 on: 2013-04-07, 16:21:06 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: EMdevices on 2013-04-07, 15:08:30 ... Stop exposing your ignorance fool. You have a very limited knowledge of resonance and electronics. Have you heard of the "quality factor" of a tank circuit, do you know what it means? For your information, not every resonant tank circuit implies NARROW PASS BAND, or ONLY REACTIVE POWER, because its related to how much resistance is in the tank circuit. Exactly. That's why when the output resistance matches the input impedance, there is no more resonance (provided that there would be one without the load, what is surely not the case here). That's what I said in other words, for example by speaking of square signals, but your knowledge in electronics is so weak that you don't understand what is said and are unable to link together the different points. Your experience is electronics seems so weak that you didn't even notice that the natural capacitance of the gegene's coils is by far too weak for expecting for a resonance in the 20-25 Khz range! « Last Edit: 2013-04-07, 20:35:54 by exnihiloest »

EMdevices	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #257 on: 2013-04-07, 17:03:37 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Quote Exactly. That's why when the output resistance matches the input impedance, there is no more resonance Incorrect! Ok dude, let me explain this to you step by step so you can comprehend. Resonance is when the circuit is left purely resistive, so in a series RLC circuit, XL = -Xc and they cancel out, leaving only resistance. If the resistance is large compared to XL, the circuit has a low quality factor, so its wide bandwidth (3 dB) A square wave, which possesses lots of harmonics will pass through pretty unchanged. If it were a narrow filter, yes it would be only a sine wave at the output, because the rest of the harmonics got filtered out. So why do we want to negate the inductive reactance in the induction cooker by making it resonant? Answer: to drive as much current and power through the circuit. I = V/Z, so we want Z as small as possible. That occurs when its RESONANT! Comprende? As far as your accomplishments, if they are true, congratulations, But learn to be humble towards others less fortunate, and beware that others on this forum, including me have achieved more then you professionally. And for your information I built my first xtal radio set at 7 years of age! Quote I'm known for a real time software in matter of radio signals processing and decoding Ok here is a simple test, what does QAM mean, and draw me a 10x10 signal constellation, also what does FIR mean in filter theory? Don't cheat and look them up on the internet. You have 5 minutes to answer. EM

EMdevices	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #258 on: 2013-04-07, 17:30:19 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Buzzzzzz, Time's up! You failed the test! Ok, here's another question which any real time radio software guy should know. What's the Fourier transform of a unit step function? You have 5 minutes to answer! Or maybe I should ask something simple like what's Nyquist's criteria for sampling? Or what is an anti-aliasing filter and why is it needed? EM

EMdevices	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #259 on: 2013-04-07, 17:43:11 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Buzzzzz! Time's up AGAIN! I'm just messing with you dude, to humble your ass! Learn some meekness on this forum if you want to continue. EM Note the times, I gave him 10 minutes not just 5

BEP	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #260 on: 2013-04-07, 17:47:32 »
Group: Guest	hehehhe\\\\ The only time D/K is valid is when it is referenced. Their work was redundant and self-validating. I think we need a separate thread titled 'Resonance" under the 'Theory' or 'Learning' branches since there is little chance resonance has any pertinence to this instance of investigation. Even if it did, that must be found experimentally since papers by the true experts have been denied as false. Continuation is fine. I enjoy debates concerning almost completely analog functions by participants having most of their knowledge based upon digital.

poynt99	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #261 on: 2013-04-07, 17:53:14 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Ex, Em, OK guys enough posturing. You BOTH have a very good background in EM theory and what resonance is. Trouble is cooler heads are NOT prevailing! Ex, you really do need to tone it down sometimes, as I've said a few times already...yes? Em, as a senior guy around here, I know you can be a bit more professional even in the light of adversity. (you too Ex) We're supposed to be on the same team guys. Right? --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

EMdevices	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #262 on: 2013-04-07, 18:00:42 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	I have a very "short fuse" with exhnihiloest, as you all know. His sarcastic post just ticked me off. If he is not banned, then the only alternative I see is to humble his ass and put him in his place. EM

Groundloop	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #263 on: 2013-04-07, 18:06:31 »
Sr. Member Posts: 336	EMdevices, I did look up QAM and FIR and did learn a lot, thanks. :-) I also did look up anti-aliasing filter and now understand why MP3 sound really sucks. LOL :-) GL.

BEP	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #264 on: 2013-04-07, 18:18:59 »
Group: Guest	BTW: I designed, built and operated my first RF jammer when I was 11 or 12. The only thing I learned was blocking out reception of the top half of the AM broadcast band for almost five miles was a Federal offense. Good thing the Feds thought it was funny I don't think that action helped my electronics knowledge, at all.

poynt99	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #265 on: 2013-04-07, 18:22:19 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Quote from: EMdevices on 2013-04-07, 18:00:42 If he is not banned, then the only alternative I see is to humble his ass and put him in his place. EM I thought you would have realized by now that that doesn't work. In fact it just riles him up even more. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

EMdevices	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #266 on: 2013-04-07, 18:28:18 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	well it appears that now he might have been humbled a bit, lets hope it holds for a while WW, I had an early calling to be an electrical engineer, I was testing the 120 V electrical wiring of my house by the age of 5, with nothing but a nail and my bare hands! EM « Last Edit: 2013-04-08, 03:19:26 by EMdevices »

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #267 on: 2013-04-07, 18:34:32 »
Group: Guest	Everyone has their point of correct view. It's just more or less. Regardless of what others say, I would say that you're all expert in electronics. I feel proud and bless being surround by you guys. After getting to know more about you, I feel even prouder. Feels like... home.

exnihiloest	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #268 on: 2013-04-07, 18:35:50 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: EMdevices on 2013-04-07, 17:03:37 Incorrect! Ok dude, let me explain this to you step by step so you can comprehend. Resonance is when the circuit is left purely resistive, so in a series RLC circuit, XL = -Xc and they cancel out, leaving only resistance. ... Too stupid! I'm speaking about the particular case of the gegene circuit where the load resistance is in parallel with the coil and you are talking about the general case of RLC in series! You continue to mix anything with anything, without the least understanding of the circuit that is studied!

EMdevices	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #269 on: 2013-04-07, 18:45:59 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Quote from: exnihiloest on 2013-04-07, 18:35:50 Too stupid! I'm speaking about the particular case of the gegene circuit where the load resistance is in parallel with the coil and you are talking about the general case of RLC in series! You continue to mix anything with anything, without the least understanding of the circuit that is studied! The load resistance gets reflected to the primary side, and appears mostly as a resistance, embodying the eddy current losses and the hysterisis losses in the pot that is placed on top of it. In the end you are left with a series RLC circuit, but the XL and XC cancel out, leaving only resistance. Quote You continue to mix anything with anything, without the least understanding of the circuit that is studied! You see what I mean guys, he can't just explain what he meant without beeing accusatory and sarcastic, and he derives this confidence because he thinks he is correct, when he is ignorant. Don't I have the right to strike back? Ok exnihiloest, believe what you want, it appears you're too ridged intellectually to learn anything new. EM

BEP	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #270 on: 2013-04-07, 19:12:41 »
Group: Guest	I can see where you are both correct and you are, each to an extent. Ex seems to be focused on the primary side and EM on the overall effect on the circuit when any connection to or 'as' the secondary is reflected in the primary. When dealing with load coupling you must be looking at the overall circuit view. Where mistakes are usually made is determining when the resonant, or not currently resonant circuit is series or parallel and the differences between the two. Series RLC would be resonant when the RLC is at its lowest impedance to the connected circuitry and parallel RLC resonant when it is at its highest impedance to the connecting circuitry. The physics definition of resonance is severely lacking without understanding the many other definitions used. BTW: Eddy currents in the pot would show as a power factor well away from unity(purely resistive). That power factor, with the added secondary coil and connected resistive load would be seen in the primary as much closer to unity. So, there is almost no chance that natural resonance could be seen with the added secondary plus the resistor load while quasi-resonance can be easily seen and implemented to maximize the energy transfer to the intended load of a ferrous cooking pot. When we start experimenting with the inductive cookers able to use non-ferrous pots it is another ball-game because the amplitude of angular velocity becomes the target. EM, I think now may be the right time to clean your shoes. A shower may also be required but I'll leave that up to you

muDped	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #271 on: 2013-04-07, 19:24:40 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	Quote from: WaveWatcher When we start experimenting with the inductive cookers able to use non-ferrous pots it is another ball-game because the amplitude of angular velocity becomes the target. This brings to mind the manner in which Metal Detectors can be made to distinguish ferrous from non-ferrous and even with some specificity to identify the various types of metals. --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

BEP	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #272 on: 2013-04-07, 19:28:07 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Dumped on 2013-04-07, 19:24:40 This brings to mind the manner in which Metal Detectors can be made to distinguish ferrous from non-ferrous and even with some specificity to identify the various types of metals. ~~Yes, the theory involved should also take us to the electronic methods used by jewelers to determine metal type and content.~~ I have a jewler in the family and just asked about this method. He said he knows of it but it is not well known, yet. So I withdraw the above comment to avoid starting another argument.

exnihiloest	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #273 on: 2013-04-07, 19:35:13 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: EMdevices on 2013-04-07, 18:45:59 The load resistance gets reflected to the primary side, and appears mostly as a resistance, embodying the eddy current losses and the hysterisis losses in the pot that is placed on top of it. Not here. If there is resonance: What is the frequency of resonance? Why don't we observe a sine signal? Why the voltage is not more than the mains voltage (to be multiplied by the ratio of turns between primary and secondary but here it is around 1)? All this points must be answered before affirming "resonance". None have been. Quote In the end you are left with a series RLC circuit, but the XL and XC cancel out, leaving only resistance. The resonance of a RLC circuit is deleted when there is a low resistance like the load, in parallel with L! Surely there is still a resonance. But with a Q of 0.00001... Very relevant in our case

EMdevices	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #274 on: 2013-04-07, 19:54:48 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Quote from: exnihiloest on 2013-04-07, 19:35:13 Not here. If there is resonance: What is the frequency of resonance? Why don't we observe a sine signal? Why the voltage is not more than the mains voltage (to be multiplied by the ratio of turns between primary and secondary but here it is around 1)? All this points must be answered before affirming "resonance". None have been. The resonance of a RLC circuit is deleted when there is a low resistance like the load, in parallel with L! Surely there is still a resonance. But with a Q of 0.00001... Very relevant in our case Not here? why not? What do you think happens when you put a ferromagnetic pot on top of the stove? How does the input impedance change? I already explained why the voltage does not build up much, and why you don't see a sine, etc, with a low Q circuit. Ponder it some more before shooting off another post. But I think you're starting to get it, the Q is very low but not as low as you imagine, and Yes, very relevant for loaded circuits like the induction cooker. EM WW Quote I think now may be the right time to clean your shoes. A shower may also be required but I'll leave that up to you I think you're right.

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