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OverUnity Research > General - Free Energy Related > Miscellaneous Discussions (Moderator: Allcanadian) > Naudin's Gegene
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Author Topic: Naudin's Gegene  (Read 214581 times)
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img  EMdevices
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #225 on: 2013-04-04, 00:15:04 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2013-04-03, 14:45:21
A radio is not a power line.

that's correct because:

A RADIO is a Power Area, not a Power Line.     :D


A transmitter radiates energy in space and this energy spreads out over an area in space, we usually compare all radiation patterns to isotropic radiators which spread the power over the surface area of a sphere at distance R

So the power density of an ideal isotropic radiator is uniform over the surface area and given by:

PD =  Pt / 4 pi R^2

where Pt is the power transmitted.

EM
« Last Edit: 2013-04-04, 01:56:52 by EMdevices »
   
img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #226 on: 2013-04-04, 06:53:19 »
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Well I'm not sure how this- wire connection came about, as I said nothing about wires?
The GEGENE has no wire connections between the transmuting or receiving coil's- so how did this - not connected by a wire come about?
This is what I ment when I said- and your point is?
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #227 on: 2013-04-04, 07:50:11 »
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Quote from: Paul-R on 2013-04-03, 16:58:58
The primary circuit has one or more LC components driven by an oscillating power source.

L and C somewhere in a circuit doesn't prove resonance. Any technician in electronics knows that.

Quote
The fact that you, Ex, do not believe that a step function does not count does not mean that it
does not count. It means that YOU reckon it doesn't count.
...

Ad hominem argumentum. Really stupid in science and boring.
Not a question of belief but a question of knowledge.  I discuss facts, not about people.

Quote
...OU does not NEED resonance,

Nobody said that resonance would be needed for OU!  C.C
I say that those who say that there is resonance in the gegene must say why, where and how. And obviously you are unable to answer.
   
img  Chet K
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #228 on: 2013-04-04, 08:27:34 »
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Ex
If this thing can fly,we'll fight about why,where and how later.

I know its fun to fight ,especially when your the guy with the biggest stick.[or think you are ]

However the Tinman is building one     and whence the Tinman gets to Buildin.
There's no stoppin him.........

thx
Chet
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #229 on: 2013-04-04, 08:42:33 »
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Hi Ex, Am I to assume that if I take a Tesla transformer which is considered a resonant transformer, but I excite the primary
with Alternating Currents at the working frequency, being the resonant frequency of the transformer, be it sine, square wave
or alternating pulses with dead time, then there is no resonance once the maximum potential is reached ?

I mean we can drive any transformer into resonant rise by tuning the transformer and driving at the resonant frequency can't we ?

Or is all that a myth. What do we call the effect of the increased amplitude of the waveform when we drive the transformer to achieve that ?

Isn't that what happens in an induction cooker, more or less ? Isn't circuits L/C is tuned so that when the driving frequency is correct
the amplitude is the most ? What do we call that effect if not an effect of resonance ?

Far be it from me to say anyone is right or wrong. I'm here to understand why it isn't an effect of resonance.
I'm not here to argue on this but I would like to see a clear definition of electrical resonance. I've read a few and they seem to differ slightly.

I would have thought that with the paralleled capacitance and inductance a certain amount of energy would oscillate to the next cycle to be added to,
at least in some times of usage depending on the load. Wouldn't it ?

Cheers
   
img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #230 on: 2013-04-04, 11:05:16 »
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Some info on an induction cooktop by westing house.
In each of the electronics modules, the 240V, 60 Hz domestic line power was converted to between 20V to 200V of continuously variable DC by a phase-controlled rectifier. That DC power was in turn converted to 27 kHz 30 A (peak) AC by two arrays of six paralleled Motorola automotive-ignition transistors in a half-bridge configuration driving a series-resonant LC oscillator, of which the inductor component was the induction-heating coil and its load, the cooking pan.

Below is a circuit of an induction cooktop of one kind.The full PDF can be found here.http://www.datasheetarchive.com/control%20circuit%20of%20induction%20cooker-datasheet.html

Now here is some information that is starting to explain as to what i was seeing in my scope at the lower time scale.

Quote:High frequency alternating current is generated in the heating coil of the cooker by a resonant power inverter employing one semiconductor switch. An anti-parallel diode (DP) is placed parallel to the IGBT to assure a path for current flow in the opposite direction when the transistor is off.
In Fig. 1, L is the inductance of the heating coil and CRES is the resonant capacitor. The controller maintains the resonance of this circuit by monitoring the current flowing in the coil and switching on at the zero crossings of this current and switching off at the proper instant to assure that the input current to the cooker remains within a sinusoidal envelope at the mains frequency.
The whole PDF can be found here-http://www.uzay.tubitak.gov.tr/tubitakUzay/yayinlar/Ertan_baris%20colak_14-05-04.doc

And yet some more info on the induction circuit-•DC power supply for inverter (can be rectified mains)
•Inverter circuit (usually an IGBT)
•Resonant circuit, comprising work coil, matching capacitors and inductor.
•Driver circuit.
The rest can be found here-http://imajeenyus.com/electronics/20060908_induction_cooker/index.shtml

The definition of a resonant circuit-An electric circuit with inductance and capacitance chosen to allow the greatest flow of current at a certain frequency.
This is exactly how the induction cooker circuit is designed to work-and dose.Maybe some should widen there ideas on resonant circuit's?
   
img  muDped
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #231 on: 2013-04-04, 14:27:19 »

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Quote from: exnihiloest
I say that those who say that there is resonance in the gegene must say why, where and how. And obviously you are unable to answer.

There is no resonant circuit external to the Induction
Cooker in the Gegene configuration.  All Gegene
accomplishes is transformer coupling of electrical energy
from an RF source to a load other than what was intended
for the Induction Cooker.

It is an unorthodox use of a simple device which proves
nothing which wasn't already known.

Any resemblance to OU is merely an illusion.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #232 on: 2013-04-04, 14:30:54 »
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In this video,i have placed a .1 ohm load across another coil that sits on top of the BPC.As i mention in the video,i am not sure as to what the resistance of the 1.5mm HT fencing wire would be when hot.This video was to show that the larger the load that is placed on the induction cooktop,the less current it draws from the grid.If anyone knows why this is so,please feel free to share your thoughts.

One other thing i found was-with the scope across the globe's and then the second coil with the .1 ohm load placed on top of the BPC,there was no notable voltage drop across the globe's-but the frequency rose by about 170 Hz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQyv8S_WbIc
   
img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #233 on: 2013-04-04, 14:51:00 »
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Quote from: Dumped on 2013-04-04, 14:27:19
There is no resonant circuit external to the Induction
Cooker in the Gegene configuration.  All Gegene
accomplishes is transformer coupling of electrical energy
from an RF source to a load other than what was intended
for the Induction Cooker.

It is an unorthodox use of a simple device which proves
nothing which wasn't already known.

Any resemblance to OU is merely an illusion.
Yes Dumped-i agree with you about there being no resonance in the GEGENE setup-i have seen this for myself on my scope.The resonance being talked about is within the induction cooker itself.As far as OU go's from the GEGENE-well the only way to find out for sure is to try for your self,which is why i bought it in the first place.But as you will see in my last video,there are some strange properties i am finding within each test i do.So i will reserve my judgment on OU until i have tried a lot more test,with accurate measurements.That wire in the video is 1.5mm HT fencing wire(spring steel)and it's glowing red hot-how many watts to do that i wounder?.
   
img  ion
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #234 on: 2013-04-04, 15:06:47 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Tinman;

Your loaded secondary coil tells all about what is happening on the primary coil of the induction heater.

Anyone who can properly interpret the waveform you show knows  the solution to the "resonance vs. non resonance" issue of the cooker.

Hint: 1) The internal cooker inductor is charged (semiconductor switch closed, ramp up portion of the waveform, rising from left to right)
        2) The semiconductor switch is opened (energy release to the secondary coil, nearly flat top portion of the waveform) we can see this from the very fast rise of voltage after the ramp up, thin short vertical line.
        3) The cycle repeats after all energy is drained from the inductor (flat top plus long downward sloping line)

I'll stay out of arguments, I just try to interpret waveforms.
« Last Edit: 2013-04-04, 15:34:09 by ION »


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #235 on: 2013-04-04, 15:28:14 »
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Quote from: ION on 2013-04-04, 15:06:47
Tinman;

Your loaded secondary coil tells all about what is happening on the primary coil of the induction heater.

Anyone who can properly interpret the waveform you show knows  the solution to the "resonance vs. non resonance" issue of the cooker.

Hint: 1) The internal cooker inductor is charged (semiconductor switch closed, ramp up portion of the waveform)
        2) The semiconductor switch is opened (energy release to the secondary coil, flat top portion of the waveform)
        3) The cycle repeats

I'll stay out of arguments, I just interpret waveforms.
This is what make's thing's hard ION.Everything you read on the induction cooker says it's a resonant circuit.But when you have people like yourself and EX saying otherwise-makes you start to wonder?.Then there is the fact that i have seen on my scope(as i mentioned in the video)that there is no resonance within the circuit.So what i did was reserch,and post what i found on how the inductive cook top work's.I have said in my video and on previous post's that i see no resonance.But i also see so much information saying it is a resonant circuit.The funny thing is it realy dosnt matter if it is a resonant circuit or not.what matters is what can it do? Is this a case of a different take on a resonant circuit? Maybe like we had TV then there was color TV.
   
img  ion
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #236 on: 2013-04-04, 15:44:45 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Quote from: tinman on 2013-04-04, 15:28:14
This is what make's thing's hard ION.Everything you read on the induction cooker says it's a resonant circuit.But when you have people like yourself and EX saying otherwise-makes you start to wonder?.Then there is the fact that i have seen on my scope(as i mentioned in the video)that there is no resonance within the circuit.So what i did was reserch,and post what i found on how the inductive cook top work's.I have said in my video and on previous post's that i see no resonance.But i also see so much information saying it is a resonant circuit.The funny thing is it realy dosnt matter if it is a resonant circuit or not.what matters is what can it do? Is this a case of a different take on a resonant circuit? Maybe like we had TV then there was color TV.

Thank you for doing these tests, they are appreciated. Yes, there probably is a lot of fun can be had experimenting with such a high power / high frequency induction device. I encourage you to enjoy your experiments and carefully observe what is happening (if those two things can be compatible).

Your latest test with the hot coil is important because it demonstrates what the waveform across the internal induction coil actually looks like by properly loading a secondary coil and observing the scope waveform across the external coil.

I added a few more lines to my priorly posted observation, hope it clarifies things.

Packets of energy are stored and released on a cycle by cycle basis. To me, this sounds and looks more like a flyback converter.

You can add a capacitor to a flyback converter and time the firing so it occurs at zero voltage or zero current. Then it is called quasi-resonant.

Note also that a flyback converter can have both L's (for energy storage) and C's for supply stiffening and leakage inductance snubbing. This does not classify it as a resonant converter.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Paul-R
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #237 on: 2013-04-04, 16:10:14 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2013-04-04, 07:50:11
I say that those who say that there is resonance in the gegene must say why, where and how. And obviously you are unable to answer.


...or can't be bothered.
.
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #238 on: 2013-04-04, 17:10:17 »
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We should get into sim.  It's fun and helpful.  I made a general sim for the induction heater.  You can manually close and open the switch to observe.  It's not perfect but I think it tells most of the story.

cooker sim

I think a cap from the primary side acts to prevent voltage spikes which could be harmful and waste energy.  It can store energy which did not transfer to the secondary and either resend or return it to the source.  The waveform looks smoother with it. 


   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #239 on: 2013-04-04, 17:57:57 »
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Quote from: Paul-R on 2013-04-04, 16:10:14
...or can't be bothered.
.

Hence they have absolutely nothing to do here. We are here to share. We are not here to affirm whatever without justification, and then to flee from the questions, wasting the time of the others.
   
img  muDped
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #240 on: 2013-04-04, 19:37:10 »

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Well done experiment TinMan!

When a resonant tank is heavily loaded
the waveshape will depart from the ideal
sinusoid and become distorted.  This is
particularly true with a single ended drive
for the tank (one input pulse each resonant
cycle.)

With induction heating the waveshape isn't
critical so the distortion is tolerable.

In applications where the waveshape distortion
wouldn't be tolerable the drive pulses are
doubled (Push-Pull or Push-Push arrangement)
to provide a drive pulse each resonant half cycle to
minimize loading distortion.  This technique was
(and still is) utilized in certain high powered systems.

With switching circuits the efficiency actually improves
(often dramatically) with heavy loading and one will
typically see a reduction in input power when loading
comparisons are made.  Even more-so with unorthodox
loading schemes.



---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #241 on: 2013-04-05, 00:31:29 »
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Quote from: Dumped on 2013-04-04, 19:37:10
Well done experiment TinMan!

When a resonant tank is heavily loaded
the waveshape will depart from the ideal
sinusoid and become distorted.  This is
particularly true with a single ended drive
for the tank (one input pulse each resonant
cycle.)

With induction heating the waveshape isn't
critical so the distortion is tolerable.

In applications where the waveshape distortion
wouldn't be tolerable the drive pulses are
doubled (Push-Pull or Push-Push arrangement)
to provide a drive pulse each resonant half cycle to
minimize loading distortion.  This technique was
(and still is) utilized in certain high powered systems.

With switching circuits the efficiency actually improves
(often dramatically) with heavy loading and one will
typically see a reduction in input power when loading
comparisons are made.  Even more-so with unorthodox
loading schemes.


Thanks Dumped
As far as the resonance thing go's,well I'm 50/50 on this one.It isn't a resonant circuit in as far as obtaining maximun amplitude,but it is in the way of the input pulses being in tune will the rise and fall of voltage within the tank circuit.From what i see at the moment,it seems to be a very efficient transformer in the way we are using it.I'm not going to guess at what that efficiency is,i will leave that until i have the correct measuring method's up and running.
   
img  Farrah Day
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #242 on: 2013-04-05, 11:04:38 »
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Quote from: tinman on 2013-04-04, 15:28:14
But when you have people like yourself and EX saying otherwise-makes you start to wonder?.

Again, precisely why we need Ex-men to stir up the pot form time to time - to make us question things... make us wonder.  :)
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #243 on: 2013-04-05, 16:47:53 »
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   Tinman -- enjoyed your vid "large resistive load" with the gegene.  You mentioned at the end that you plan to do light measurements AND to heat water -- I look forward especially to those measurements. 
   
img  EMdevices
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #244 on: 2013-04-05, 21:49:32 »
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I think the confusion about RESONANCE in the induction cooker stems from the fact that folks don't understand electronics or haven't thought about the circuit in detail.


If the induction cooker is not RESONANT, then when a pulse is applied, there is too much INDUCTANCE in the circuit from the big coil, and very little current will flow.

So a capacitor is utilized to negate the inductive reactance and leave the circuit pretty much resistive.


Resonance does not necessarily mean you get huge voltage amplification, it all depends on how much resistance you have.

I'm sure these cookers are smart and control the waveform as one places a load on it.


EM 
   
img  BEP
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #245 on: 2013-04-06, 01:19:13 »
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EM,

Better check your shoes. I think you're stepping in something.

Here, antiresonance means resonance and passive or active directional control of circuit parasitics or alternating antiresonance-resonance means quasi-resonance when only active control validates the use of 'quasi'  :D

And they have scope shots to prove there is no resonance  O0 

You might wish to check for anything hiding in the bushes, too  ;D
   
img  EMdevices
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #246 on: 2013-04-06, 01:23:45 »
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Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2013-04-06, 01:19:13
EM,

Better check your shoes. I think you're stepping in something.

Here, antiresonance means resonance and passive or active directional control of circuit parasitics or alternating antiresonance-resonance means quasi-resonance when only active control validates the use of 'quasi'  :D

And they have scope shots to prove there is no resonance  O0  

You might wish to check for anything hiding in the bushes, too  ;D

Not sure what you mean, but here's what tinmen said which is right on to what I'm explaining.

As far as the resonance thing go's,well I'm 50/50 on this one. It isn't a resonant circuit in as far as obtaining maximun amplitude, but it is in the way of the input pulses being in tune will the rise and fall of voltage within the tank circuit. From what i see at the moment,it seems to be a very efficient transformer in the way we are using it.I'm not going to guess at what that efficiency is,i will leave that until i have the correct measuring method's up and running.


I'll wipe my shoes now and go away, before I become anti-resonant.  :D
   
img  BEP
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #247 on: 2013-04-06, 03:33:09 »
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Quote from: EMdevices on 2013-04-06, 01:23:45
Not sure what you mean....

 :(

Oh well, I forgot how much younger you are than me. Meaning, I'm considerably more analog than you  C.C

Quote
I'll wipe my shoes now and go away, before I become anti-resonant.  :D

Ah! I thought you may have had some dealings with control of tuned circuit parasitics for waveform modification using passive and/or active components.

Never mind.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #248 on: 2013-04-06, 18:57:46 »
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Quote from: EMdevices on 2013-04-05, 21:49:32
I think the confusion about RESONANCE in the induction cooker stems from the fact that folks don't understand electronics or haven't thought about the circuit in detail.

I agree.
Here is the proof:

Quote
If the induction cooker is not RESONANT, then when a pulse is applied, there is too much INDUCTANCE in the circuit from the big coil, and very little current will flow.
...

Not understood electronics.
There is no "big coil", "big coil" means nothing in electronics. Give the inductance. Calculate di/dt. Do the math.
Note also that when the output coil is loaded with a resistive load and the coupling is near 1, the primary coil is viewing only a resistance, not an inductance. Any electronics technician or engineer knows that! We just have a transformer. There is no resonance in an only R circuit.

   
img  EMdevices
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #249 on: 2013-04-06, 19:58:56 »
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Your thinking ideal transformer. A real transformer has inductance on the primary and secondary, interwinding capacitance, and a whole lot more.  So the load reflected on the primary is not purely resistive as you say. Go review you textbooks you pretentious ignoramus.

EM
   
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