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Author Topic: Naudin's Gegene  (Read 214403 times)
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img  Grumpy
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #175 on: 2013-03-31, 20:42:54 »

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Quote from: tinman on 2013-03-31, 16:59:19
One other load i tried was a 10mm x 10mm x 60mm carbon rod as a load.The resistance measured 15 ohms from end to end.The rod exploded as soon as i turned the cooktop on-so that was a very short experiment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOMw487Vdr0

Is the exploding rod in the video that you linked? 
   
img  ion
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #176 on: 2013-03-31, 23:39:19 »
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It's turtles all the way down
The carbon rod may have absorbed some moisture and the steam buildup caused the rupture. This is unusual, I have never had this problem.

If you decide to try it again, bake the rod out in a toaster oven to remove moisture. Or run it up slowly on a variac first. Fifteen ohms is rather low, and would amount to 3840 Watts on a 240 volt line. If it was able to survive that it would be white hot. I suggest you need higher resistance, maybe near 60 ohms. Still there is too little mass there to couple the energy to the air, so it will get very bright.

What type of carbon rod was this?


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img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #177 on: 2013-04-01, 02:08:55 »
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Quote from: ION on 2013-03-31, 23:39:19
The carbon rod may have absorbed some moisture and the steam buildup caused the rupture. This is unusual, I have never had this problem.

If you decide to try it again, bake the rod out in a toaster oven to remove moisture. Or run it up slowly on a variac first. Fifteen ohms is rather low, and would amount to 3840 Watts on a 240 volt line. If it was able to survive that it would be white hot. I suggest you need higher resistance, maybe near 60 ohms. Still there is too little mass there to couple the energy to the air, so it will get very bright.

What type of carbon rod was this?
It was just the rod from a builders pencil,so im guessing carbon graphite.

@ Grumpy-no the exploding rod wasnt in the video.
   
img  BEP
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #178 on: 2013-04-01, 02:55:23 »
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tinman,


The graphite in a pencil is actually a mixture of graphite, clay, oil and wax. The high resistance you measured before applying a voltage would have been due to the content of all but the graphite. The resistance of graphite is quite low.

Graphite has a negative temperature coefficient so as soon as current flowed the resistance of your rod dropped (almost instantly). The sudden increase in current would have caused catastrophic failure of the rod.

There used to be information about making special resistors out of pencil lead which included burning out the wax and oil. If you don't, there should be an explosion when enough current is applied.
 
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #179 on: 2013-04-01, 10:43:05 »
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Quote from: Dumped on 2013-03-31, 19:58:24
Ex,

Perhaps you'd provide your own explanation of how the "conversion" takes place within the Induction Cooker?  

It's a switching circuit like those of power supplies, the input signal being here the mains voltage, double-wave rectified but not filtered unlike the case of power supplies. This is a very conventional technology.

Quote
Where it is within the Output Circuit (L & C) that "resonance" is non-existent?

This would go a long way in helping to solve the riddle...

The "non existence" being by definition outside of the reality, it's outside of science. Science is only what we observe. Therefore your question doesn't respect any elementary scientific method.
If you affirm that there is resonance, then it is observable, and you must show where it is and which phenomena you consider as evidence of this resonance. The burden of proof is only to you, it's on the side of the positive affirmation.

The time constant of the circuit determines the switching frequency. The signal is almost square and amplitude modulated by the mains, meaning that there is a wide spectrum, not a single frequency. The output signal appears and disappears almost instantly when we switch on or off the power, meaning that there is not energy accumulation.

So once again, "What is resonant in an induction heater? Which components are concerned? Why?". Will you continue to endlessly elude the question or may I expect for an intellectually honnest answer?

« Last Edit: 2013-04-01, 13:08:42 by exnihiloest »
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #180 on: 2013-04-01, 14:56:33 »

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I too am curious about the proposed use of resonance in the Gegene, as I have never seen resonance produce energy.

Even Tesla himself stated that resonance was only a means to work up a small signal, and that one could often do better with an ordinary transformer.
   
img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #181 on: 2013-04-01, 15:57:13 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2013-04-01, 14:56:33

Even Tesla himself stated that resonance was only a means to work up a small signal, and that one could often do better with an ordinary transformer.
Grumpy,i have read many of tesla's patents,and many documents on his work.Not once have i seen any of his work state what you have above.Infact Tesla always maintained that resonance was the key to an unlimited power supply.His tesla coils must be tuned to resonance(or very close to) before they discharge any decent sort of energy.This also reduces the energy input requirement as well.Then there was his small oscillator that almost brought down a large building-how much energy would it take to do that?Once the oscillations were in resonance with the building's natural frequency,large forces started acting upon that building made of steel and concrete.

To think of resonance as a situation where you gain the highest amplitude for the smallest amount of input energy is nothing more than tunnel vision.Resonance is an interupting force applied to a systems natural frequency at the correct time so as it is in phase with the systems natural frequency-this is regardless of wether the system has a load applied to it or not.The heaver the load applied to the system,the greater the interupting force has to be to maintain the systems natural frequency.This natural frequency will ofcourse change depending on load applied.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #182 on: 2013-04-01, 17:03:29 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2013-04-01, 14:56:33
I too am curious about the proposed use of resonance in the Gegene, as I have never seen resonance produce energy.
...

Not only resonance doesn't produce energy but there is no resonance in Naudin's gegene.
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #183 on: 2013-04-01, 17:43:01 »

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Quote from: tinman on 2013-04-01, 15:57:13
Grumpy,i have read many of tesla's patents,and many documents on his work.Not once have i seen any of his work state what you have above.Infact Tesla always maintained that resonance was the key to an unlimited power supply.His tesla coils must be tuned to resonance(or very close to) before they discharge any decent sort of energy.This also reduces the energy input requirement as well.Then there was his small oscillator that almost brought down a large building-how much energy would it take to do that?Once the oscillations were in resonance with the building's natural frequency,large forces started acting upon that building made of steel and concrete.

To think of resonance as a situation where you gain the highest amplitude for the smallest amount of input energy is nothing more than tunnel vision.Resonance is an interupting force applied to a systems natural frequency at the correct time so as it is in phase with the systems natural frequency-this is regardless of wether the system has a load applied to it or not.The heaver the load applied to the system,the greater the interupting force has to be to maintain the systems natural frequency.This natural frequency will ofcourse change depending on load applied.

I regretfully inform you that you are mistaken.  While his "Tesla Transformer" is tuned to resonate and this is how the very high voltages are developed in this device, his magnifier was not resonant.

I have posted the reference one this site - give me a minute to find it.
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #184 on: 2013-04-01, 18:08:02 »

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I first posted this back in 2008 on OU:

============================================
Resonance" is only a means to obtain very high voltage.

TFC Books has a book that details a lengthy interview between Tesla and his Attorneys:
http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/nt_on_ac.htm

On page 100 of that book Tesla states the following:

--- Quote ---
There are two ways in which you can operate if you have a reciever of that kind.  (Tesla is refering to his system depicted in patent 645,576) One is by linking, closely, your working circuit with the primary excited circuit.  The other is by linking it loosely, and then working up the pressure by resonance.  You will find that you can do much better, if you have such a device, to produce the necessary pressure by turns, than by resonant rise, because if you want to excite it by resonance you have to link only a few lines; start with a very low electromotive force and work it up.  But, if you have such a device as I have described, you can obtain any pressure you like by a few secondary turns.  I have invented such an instrument and have demonstrated its efficacy.
--- End quote ---

So, just like Richard Hull found out in his own experiments, resonant rise will only get you so far.  It's just a means to an end, and not necessarily the best means.
==============================================

I have this book and can scan the actual page tonight.

The reference to the use of an ordinary transformer is either in that same interview, or his Colorado Springs Notes.  I'll check tonight as I have both references marked as this comes up from time to time.

Tesla also states that the Magnifier is 93% to 95% efficient, so if there is extra energy there, it doesn't exceed the losses in the system.

Resonance doesn't create energy, liberate more from it's source, or convert energy from another source.

The building blocks of the entire universe are spinning.  If you want energy, convert it from the wheelwork of nature.
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #185 on: 2013-04-01, 20:14:25 »
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You can see resonance as transformer.  It accumulates small oscillation into large oscillation.  The only useful purpose I see is impedance matching.  There are many ways to acquire high voltage.  You can use a transformer, a switching converter like buck boost, voltage multiplier and so on.  I don't think resonance produce extra energy, but you can use it to gather low energy maybe even at the quantum level.  

Here is a simulation of what Tesla talking about.  You don't need many secondary turns to get high voltage.  Below is the circuit that take 5V oscillation at 41 Hz and boost it up using resonance.  

Sim
   
img  muDped
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #186 on: 2013-04-01, 21:08:27 »

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Quote from: exnihiloest
So once again, "What is resonant in an induction heater? Which components are concerned? Why?". Will you continue to endlessly elude the question or may I expect for an intellectually honnest answer?

This "process" is getting to be just about as
difficult as "pulling teeth!"

The Resonant Circuit within the Induction
Cooker consists of two components:

The "Pancake Coil" and its Resonance Capacitor.

The "Tank."

The pulsing of the Resonant Circuit is as you've
described:  Pulse width modulated excitation
at the frequency of resonance where the pulse
amplitudes correspond to the instantaneous
magnitude of the Line Input which results in
a line modulated RF envelope at the Pancake
Coil Output.

Ex, it is a simplified version of the very same
conversion process which takes place within
your Radio Transmitter.  The process is very
well explained within the relevant documentation.

Is what we're seeing with Ex truly a lack of
comprehension or is it simply a display of
ornery stubbornness? >:-)  >:(  ???  :P  C.C

In any case, Truth will out... 8)


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img  Grumpy
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #187 on: 2013-04-01, 21:19:43 »

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According to Tesla Patent for a "Coil for Electromagnets", US Patent: 512340

A coil wound in this fashion has a higher capacitance than a single flat winding, and he says it will have a resonant frequency of it's own.
   
img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #188 on: 2013-04-02, 00:03:13 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2013-04-01, 21:19:43
According to Tesla Patent for a "Coil for Electromagnets", US Patent: 512340

A coil wound in this fashion has a higher capacitance than a single flat winding, and he says it will have a resonant frequency of it's own.



Hi Grumpy
Thank's for the info,and i will be sure to read it when i get the time.
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #189 on: 2013-04-02, 04:26:38 »
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Resonance.

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/sound/u11l5a.cfm

Quote
The word resonance comes from Latin and means to "resound" - to sound out together with a loud sound. Resonance is a common cause of sound production in musical instruments. One of our best models of resonance in a musical instrument is a resonance tube (a hollow cylindrical tube) partially filled with water and forced into vibration by a tuning fork. The tuning fork is the object that forced the air inside of the resonance tube into resonance. As the tines of the tuning fork vibrate at their own natural frequency, they created sound waves that impinge upon the opening of the resonance tube. These impinging sound waves produced by the tuning fork force air inside of the resonance tube to vibrate at the same frequency. Yet, in the absence of resonance, the sound of these vibrations is not loud enough to discern. Resonance only occurs when the first object is vibrating at the natural frequency of the second object. So if the frequency at which the tuning fork vibrates is not identical to one of the natural frequencies of the air column inside the resonance tube, resonance will not occur and the two objects will not sound out together with a loud sound.

The original meaning of resonance was defined before common use of electrical phenomena or after ?

Cheers
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #190 on: 2013-04-02, 04:44:51 »

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Page 88 of Tesla's Colorado Notes talks about his coil with high capacitance:

Page 79 talks about using ordinary transformers:
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #191 on: 2013-04-02, 04:53:57 »

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Nice video about that type of coil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgF20K7qvx0
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #192 on: 2013-04-02, 07:43:04 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2013-04-01, 17:43:01
I regretfully inform you that you are mistaken.  While his "Tesla Transformer" is tuned to resonate
...

It's you Grumpy who are mistaken. You mix anything with anything.  "Tesla Transformer" is resonant but it is not related to the topic: Naudin's Gegene, which is not. Stop your digression, or answer the following question asked to you to several times and that you ignore because it challenges your disinformation:  "What is resonant in an induction heater? Which components are concerned? Why?".

I have open this thread to discuss only Naudin's Gegene, where there is no Tesla transformer. 

This thread is not about resonance.

Please stay in the topic!
   
img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #193 on: 2013-04-02, 13:26:44 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2013-04-02, 07:43:04
 

This thread is not about resonance.

Please stay in the topic!


On this we can agree--on with the experimenting.I have purchased 2000 watt's of halogen globe's today,and will make the carrier tomorrow.Then some testing will follow.This will be the part we need to get right-P/in P/out,so feel free to put forth any testing methods you may think would be most accurate in these tests.
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #194 on: 2013-04-02, 14:35:22 »

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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2013-04-02, 07:43:04
It's you Grumpy who are mistaken. You mix anything with anything.  "Tesla Transformer" is resonant but it is not related to the topic: Naudin's Gegene, which is not. Stop your digression, or answer the following question asked to you to several times and that you ignore because it challenges your disinformation:  "What is resonant in an induction heater? Which components are concerned? Why?".

I have open this thread to discuss only Naudin's Gegene, where there is no Tesla transformer. 

This thread is not about resonance.

Please stay in the topic!

That is what I said:  the Tesla Transformer (two coil version) IS resonant.  Tesla's Magnifier is NOT resonant.

Stop mis-quoting me to stroke your own ego!
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #195 on: 2013-04-02, 16:52:55 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2013-04-02, 14:35:22
That is what I said:  the Tesla Transformer (two coil version) IS resonant.  Tesla's Magnifier is NOT resonant.

Stop mis-quoting me to stroke your own ego!

Grumpy: I have reread the thread. The wrong affirmation of resonance was from dumped, not you, and in my mind, it was from you. Not a question of ego but of weak memory. I apologize.
My never answered question about the alleged resonance in the gegene is therefore for dumped only ("What is resonant in an induction heater? Which components are concerned? Why?").
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #196 on: 2013-04-02, 17:16:58 »

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EX, Apology accepted.

attached is an image of the internal components of a typical induction cooker:
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #197 on: 2013-04-02, 17:56:31 »
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Thanks for the photo, Grumpy.  Does the fan run on 120V AC, as I suppose? I'd like to eliminate that from the power-draw... but would need to be careful not to overheat the coil.

OK -- In the last few days, I've begun experiments with the induction heater, heading towards Gegene.  (I was working on slayer-exciter devices for a while; having fun with those...)

See attached photos.  500g water heated in each case, Q = 4.19 *500g* (delta-TempOfWater).

The steel pan and the steel 7-1/4" saw blade both attract strongly to a magnet.

Watt-hours read using the Intertek watt-meter shown (checked against Kill-a-Watt meters, but the Intertek has better resolution, down to the watt-hour).

I did a few experiments putting in 30 W-hrs = 108,000J of electrical energy.

Outputs were:
Pan  70,367J    Pout/Pin  65%
Pyrex bowl + saw blade:  71,498,  and 70,141    Pout/Pin  66%, 65%

So Pout/Pin quite consistent at approx. 65%.

Note the BPC in the upper corner of photos... that's next, but I have some errands before I can get to that.

TinMan -- halogen bulbs are nice, but I'm planning to dump the power into three simple resistive-immersion-heaters in series and immersed in/heating water, thus using calorimetry to determine Pout.
   
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Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #198 on: 2013-04-02, 18:22:56 »

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Quick sanity check:

Is the "extra power" within the margin of error for the measuring method?
   
img  ion
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #199 on: 2013-04-02, 21:57:30 »
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It's turtles all the way down
From Physicsprof:

Quote
I'm planning to dump the power into three simple resistive-immersion-heaters in series and immersed in/heating water, thus using calorimetry to determine Pout.

Why will you be running three of them in series? What is the Wattage of each at 120 Volts? What is the RMS voltage output of your BPC coil with a reasonable load?

Note that they may have some inductance if they are Nichrome wound types.


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