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OverUnity Research > General - Free Energy Related > Miscellaneous Discussions (Moderator: Allcanadian) > Naudin's Gegene
2024-11-27, 16:57:58
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img  BEP
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #150 on: 2013-03-30, 01:23:28 »
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I just stopped back for a moment and see all the mentions that ferromagnetic cookware is required by ALL induction cookers.

Not a problem. I'm going back into town in the morning. I'll stop by the Sam's Club and request the manager remove the false advertising from that Panasonic cook-top.

I might also get a wild hair and stop by the scrap yard to demand they stop using that fake electromagnet to pick up the blocks of crushed aluminum cans  :)

Maybe ya'll should look at induction cookers developed after about 2010?
   
img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #151 on: 2013-03-30, 01:28:10 »
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I would think anything that can create a backEMF against the cooker coil would work.It would seem that the cooktop needs to detect a load to keep running,and i would think that this is some sort of safety feature-so as when you remove your pot full of food,the cooktop go's into standby mode.

You will see in a lot of the video's,it is mentioned that !i should have more load on the output!.Some of the cheaper one's will start without detecting any load on the coil-this is probably because they dont have the auto standby mode.The induction cooker is nothing more than a transformer that needs to detect a load to opperate,and where the secondaries sole purpose is to create heat.
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #152 on: 2013-03-30, 01:44:27 »
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Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2013-03-30, 01:23:28
I just stopped back for a moment and see all the mentions that ferromagnetic cookware is required by ALL induction cookers.

Not a problem. I'm going back into town in the morning. I'll stop by the Sam's Club and request the manager remove the false advertising from that Panasonic cook-top....



OK -- so, what is the difference with this Panasonic,  compared to older induction cookers, that it does not require ferromagnetic cookware?

Also, WW -- what is the relevance of the newer models to the thread? -- don't Naudin (and replicators) use the older models?
They use the ones that call for ferro-magnetic cookware, right?
   
img  BEP
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #153 on: 2013-03-30, 01:53:51 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2013-03-30, 01:44:27

OK -- so, what is the difference with this Panasonic,  compared to older induction cookers, that it does not require ferromagnetic cookware?


Found this link -- http://www.3ds.com/company/news-media/press-releases-detail/release/ibm-and-dassault-systemes-help-panasonic-home-appliances/single/2439/?cHash=2c34dfefd4f09663710f71f29cb724bc

In addition to my earlier statement:
Quote
I'm sure ferromagnetic is a requirement on any induction cooker that does not use a planar coil and the planar coil drive does not create rotational eddy currents.

I suspect that the controls switch from lower frequencies and non-rotational magnetics (ferrous pots) to higher frequencies and rotational magnetics (non-ferrous pots). Not having one myself I can only say those are my suspicions as they would make sense to me.
   
img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #154 on: 2013-03-30, 01:58:47 »
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Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2013-03-30, 01:53:51
Found this link -- http://www.3ds.com/company/news-media/press-releases-detail/release/ibm-and-dassault-systemes-help-panasonic-home-appliances/single/2439/?cHash=2c34dfefd4f09663710f71f29cb724bc

In addition to my earlier statement:
I suspect that the controls switch from lower frequencies and non-rotational magnetics (ferrous pots) to higher frequencies and rotational magnetics (non-ferrous pots). Not having one myself I can only say those are my suspicions as they would make sense to me.


Well im off to buy one right now(need to look at things hands on)-so im happy to be the guinea pig for any here that would like to try different thing's with the induction cooker.
   
img  poynt99
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #155 on: 2013-03-30, 02:31:15 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Any metal works when driven appropriately.

The ferromagnetic materials work "better" in that the frequency used can be lower, due to much higher self inductance and hysteresis losses (i.e. heat).


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img  exnihiloest
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #156 on: 2013-03-30, 10:58:27 »
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Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2013-03-29, 15:11:41
The papers explain it well enough.

Resonance is not as simple as the point at which all components in a circuit provide the highest possible stored energy. It is also the point where the least or most amount of impedance is provided against a signal or the 'forcefully controlled frequency of operations.

In the first and most commonly known example of a parallel resonance RCL tank the highest amount of energy is stored at the resonant frequency at a certain 'Q'.
In the second it is more properly known as anti-resonance as in a series RCL circuit which can be used as a high or low pass filter. In the third - yes, correctly known as quasi-resonance, it is a  controlled frequency of operation. That control is enforced by the use of switching devices inserted into the the RCL tank.

Probably the most prolific example of controlled resonance is with the use of a varactor - as is used in digitally tuned radio receivers. This example replaces the capacitive function with a voltage controlled capacitance or may use current controlled inductance.

In the case of the inductive heater examples the resonance is controlled by the switching of the energy source. Yes, this switched signal frequency is not the simple resonant frequency of the RCL but is varied to meet the total resonance of the coil plus the metal of the pan.

Another difference and I think the main reason that simple resonance is not allowed on the induction heater is because the best energy transfer would not occur at the simple resonance of the RCL and the pan. It must be forced to the zero sequence harmonics to produce the greatest ohmic losses. This would produce the quickest translation to heat in the pan.

This could then be why an induction heater can boil water much quicker than a radiant heater.

What resonance really boils down to is the point at which all devices in the circuit operate to the intended point. Resonance is not just the the F1 frequency of the plucked string.

In any case, disagreements in term definition is not a valid reason to insult those not agreeing with you.
  

"What is resonant in an induction heater? Wich compoents are concerned? Why?"

Still no answer but general and vague digressions, misinterpretation of the scientific definition of "resonance" and pure invention about his meaning. Speech outside of science, not even disputable by lack of refutability.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #157 on: 2013-03-30, 11:40:26 »
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Quote from: ION on 2013-03-29, 23:19:20
I found this on induction cookware:
Quote
"Not all pieces of cookware can be used on induction cooktops and stoves. Since induction technology uses the power of magnetism, the cookware piece itself must be magnetic and have a flat bottom. For this reason, cookware made from aluminum, copper or glass, including Pyrex will not work on its own.

Induction cookware must be made of a magnetic-based material, such as cast iron or magnetic stainless steel. Fully clad cookware brands, such as All-Clad Stainless, Viking cookware and Mauviel M'cooks stainless work on induction cooktops because they're magnetic. Cast Iron cookware also works on induction, like Staub.

If you're not sure if your cookware will work with induction cooktops, try sticking a magnet to your cookware. If it sticks, it should work; if it doesn't, most likely it is not induction compatible."

Induction heater is only electrical current induced inside a (resistive) conductor material. Thus it could theoretically work with non magnetic material but there are practical limitations.
Only the conductivity of the material, the path of the induced current and the quality of the coupling influences the heating.
If the induced current matches the source impedance, as a load at the secundary of a transformer matching the primary impedance according to the ratio of the turns of the windings, the power transfer is maximized. If the conductor is a good conductor (copper, aluminium), its resistance may be too low for a good impedance matching. If it is too high, same problem. The other point is that a ferromagnetic material increases the coupling, as does a ferromagnetic core coupling two windings. The interest of common cookware pieces containing iron is both that they present the good resistivity, and that their ferromagnetism enhances the coupling.

   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #158 on: 2013-03-30, 11:42:51 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2013-03-30, 02:31:15
Any metal works when driven appropriately.

The ferromagnetic materials work "better" in that the frequency used can be lower, due to much higher self inductance and hysteresis losses (i.e. heat).

I agree
   
img  Paul-R
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #159 on: 2013-03-30, 11:50:33 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2013-03-30, 01:10:31
My thought -- Perhaps its just a matter of efficiency, that ferro-magnetic cookware will be heated by both eddy currents and by hysteresis losses...
Naudin recdommends a resistive load and in order to achieve coupling, a steel sheet under the BPC. When current is establsihed
in the BPC, the steel sheet can be whipped out leaving the BPC to do its stuff.


SPECIAL OFFER ON HOBS TILL APRIL 16th:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/2kw-induction-cooker-636623
   
img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #160 on: 2013-03-30, 12:37:33 »
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Well i went and bought an induction cooktop today,as it seems time to study this myself.I got a 2000 watt baumatic,which has 9 different setting's.The first thing i did was just to boil some water in a S/S pot.Now what i found with that one simple opperation is that this modle switches on and off on any setting below 5-just the on time changes.Only from setting 5 and up dose it stay on 100% of the time,and just draw more watt's.So this will make testing on the lower scale's a bit hard.

The second thing i tried was to use an aluminum pot to boil some water-no go,all it did was beep.So ali is out for this one.The good thing about this induction cooktop is that it kick's the standard kettle's butt at heating water.It will boil 1/2 a ltr of cold water in under 2 minutes at setting 7(14oo watts)where as the kettle will draw 1730 watts and take 3.15 minutes to boil the same amount of water (maybe the kettle is cactus?)

Now that the kitchen tests have been done,it's off to the workshop tomorrow to build the BPC and start some testing with that.
First test will be to measure time taken to boil a set amount of water without the BPC,and then again with the BPC between the pot and cooktop.
Once we have that,i will then place a load on the BPC,and run the same test again.I will keep increasing the load on the BPC until we reach a 1000 watt load-then we can do some math of input's and output's.
   
img  ion
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #161 on: 2013-03-30, 13:17:35 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Aluminum exhibits very weak paramagnatism 2.2 x10^-5

Quote
"Materials that are called 'paramagnets' are most often those that exhibit, at least over an appreciable temperature range, magnetic susceptibilities that adhere to the Curie or Curie–Weiss laws. In principle any system that contains atoms, ions, or molecules with unpaired spins can be called a paramagnet, but the interactions between them need to be carefully considered."

Copper is also weakly paramagnetic, but when used in the BPC configuration, it is just the secondary of a transformer. With the BPC open, there will be little to no heating in the wire.

If the transformer coupling were perfect, and the secondary "shorted" the "L" part of the LC resonator would disappear leaving only the "C". Then the coil would heat from ohmic losses in the shorted copper secondary. In the real world, perfect coupling is not possible.

This case would probably be too extreme, the cooker would sense the high current peaks and not allow operation.

That's why earlier I suggested using a non-inductive resistor (carbon slug) matched to the BPC impedance and immersed in water as a load.

Attached is a paper on Resonant Mode Convertor Topologies



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img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #162 on: 2013-03-30, 13:35:55 »
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Quote from: ION on 2013-03-30, 13:17:35
Aluminum exhibits very weak paramagnatism 2.2 x10^-5

Copper is also weakly paramagnetic, but when used in the BPC configuration, it is just the secondary of a transformer. With the BPC open, there will be little to no heating in the wire.

If the transformer coupling were perfect, and the secondary "shorted" the "L" part of the LC resonator would disappear leaving only the "C". Then the coil would heat from ohmic losses in the shorted copper secondary. In the real world, perfect coupling is not possible.

This case would probably be too extreme, the cooker would sense the high current peaks and not allow operation.

That's why earlier I suggested using a non-inductive resistor (carbon slug) matched to the BPC impedance and immersed in water as a load.

Attached is a paper on Resonant Mode Convertor Topologies


Hi ION
I was thinking about loading the BPC with an element from an electric cook top-the resistive element type.Then placing this into a seperate pan full of water.
What are your thought's on this?
   
img  ion
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #163 on: 2013-03-30, 13:56:40 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Quote from: tinman on 2013-03-30, 13:35:55
Hi ION
I was thinking about loading the BPC with an element from an electric cook top-the resistive element type.Then placing this into a seperate pan full of water.
What are your thought's on this?

Electric cooktop elements are usually spiralled nichrome (or equiv) wire swaged into a metal tube with ceramic powder for insulation. They have some inductance, but may work. Unless you are careful, the ceramic material may absorb water and you might have a steam bomb. I would carefully insulate and waterproof the connections to the element. Probably better to use an immersion heater designed for underwater use, but it will still have the inductance issue.

The carbon rod would allow for accurate measurement of voltage using a scope. Then you could accurately compute power.

I'll measure the electric stove element if I can dig one up.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  BEP
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #164 on: 2013-03-30, 16:25:45 »
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Just came back from the local Sam's club. Interesting  ;)

Declare what you wish. That Panasonic cook top boiled 2 cups of tap water in an all copper pan in under 30 seconds.

I went in as a complete skeptic - magnet in hand  ;) No noticeable attraction to the pan. No radiate heat from the cooking element.

The store folks knew nothing special except they said aluminum pans were not a good idea unless there was a fair amount of weight in the pot.

Good luck buying one. It is out of my financial reach.

As far as defining resonance -- sorry, I'm not limited to the physics definition. That definition is hampered by 'exciting frequencies being the same or very near those of the circuit'. That is ridiculous because anyone understanding even simple tank resonance understands that the exciting frequency need not be a frequency but can be components of a pulse or be a harmonic, undertone or overtone frequency.

Should we amend the AUP or TOS to forbid all but scientific or physics definitions?

Ex.,

You win. Not that you are correct. Just that I have better things to do. You may pursue others to follow your limited definitions.
   
img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #165 on: 2013-03-31, 03:37:53 »
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Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2013-03-30, 16:25:45
Just came back from the local Sam's club. Interesting  ;)


As far as defining resonance -- sorry, I'm not limited to the physics definition. That definition is hampered by 'exciting frequencies being the same or very near those of the circuit'. That is ridiculous because anyone understanding even simple tank resonance understands that the exciting frequency need not be a frequency but can be components of a pulse or be a harmonic, undertone or overtone frequency.

Should we amend the AUP or TOS to forbid all but scientific or physics definitions?

Ex.,

You win. Not that you are correct. Just that I have better things to do. You may pursue others to follow your limited definitions.



Resonance is nothing more than a push in the right direction at the right time.Everything has a natural frequency,and a resonant frequency is a disturbance applied to that natural frequency at the correct time.Every system be it mechanical,gaseous or electromagnetic has resistance which will act  against it's natural frequency,and therefore needs an external force applied to it to maintain it's natural frequency.When this force is applied at the system's natural frequency at the correct time,the force is said to be resonant to that system.The greater the resistance against the natural frequency,the more force(at resonant frequency) we have to apply to the system to maintain it's natural frequency.

The simple tank circuit at it's natural frequency has a resistance fighting against that frequency-thus the very reason we have to apply a resonant force to maintain it's natural frequency.As the induction heater in question here uses the quasi resonant sytem,where as the external force is applied at the zero volt line of the tank circuit,then by definition it is a resonant system.It is no different than any other resonant system,as it applies the needed external force required to maintain the systems natural frequency when we increase the resistance(load) to that system.

As far as physics go's-well if you look in one direction,the scenery will never change.
   
img  muDped
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #166 on: 2013-03-31, 04:13:16 »

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Quote from: WaveWatcher
Ex.,

You win. Not that you are correct. Just that I have better things to do. You may pursue others to follow your limited definitions.

WaveWatcher,

Your abdication may prove to be unnecessary.

Once Ex gives the proposition some deep thought
he'll no doubt come to the correct conclusion.


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For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #167 on: 2013-03-31, 11:44:10 »
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Quote from: Dumped on 2013-03-31, 04:13:16
Quote from: WaveWatcher
Ex.,

You win. Not that you are correct. Just that I have better things to do. You may pursue others to follow your limited definitions.

WaveWatcher,

Your abdication may prove to be unnecessary.

Once Ex gives the proposition some deep thought he'll no doubt come to the correct conclusion.

It's not a question of abdication nor winning, it's not a question of persons but of scientific truth which doesn't depend on the intimate conviction of anybody.

Either we speak of "resonance" inside this rational frame (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonance for a start point), and so the resonance has well defined and indispensable characteristics that can be identified in a device but that we don't see  in an induction heater, or we speak of an imaginary "resonance" that everyone interprets according to his fuzzy personal definition, such tinman's "Resonance is nothing more than a push in the right direction at the right time" which is by far not enough, and it's useless because from an operational viewpoint, nothing is said nor proved nor even refutable. This is the reason why we see further the term "quasi resonant" which is no more defined than "resonant" and therefore it's a door open to any arbitrary affirmations which are nonsenses out of ignorance.

In which components of the induction heater does the energy go back and forth? Where and how is injected the small amount of energy that maintains or increases the alleged resonance? How could an almost rectangular signal (meaning a wide spectrum) itself modulated (meaning non linearities) by the mains frequency, be compatible with a resonance which works at a single frequency? and so on... The laymen unskilled in electronics and physics and who reinvent the "resonance" are unable to explain it in operational terms because their indisputable and pretentious speech is only baloney with which they gargle and whose they prefer the pretty sound to the austere reality.

« Last Edit: 2013-03-31, 13:43:42 by exnihiloest »
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #168 on: 2013-03-31, 16:06:28 »
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It's good if coupling is perfect and load resistivity match, but what if they do not match? Is there anything we can do?

I'm now intrigue by resonance.  The Joule Thief able to suck out juice from the battery, but at certain battery voltage (maybe .4V), the circuit stops working.  Resonance can amplify a low voltage to high voltage with high efficient. 

Imagine a 41 Hertz source driving a 1:1  one Henry transformer with 15 uf cap.  This is the resonance condition.  If you lower the transformer coupling, what happens to the tank circuit? 

   
img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #169 on: 2013-03-31, 16:59:19 »
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I now have myself an induction cooktop,and this video is just me playing around a bit with the cooktop.The FWBR's i have dont seem to cope with the high frequency to well,as it keeps frying them.The system runs at 23.3Khz.So next i must find mysel some good resistive load's to try on the system,and also some good UF FWBR's.I am more than happy to try out anything you guy's might think is worth a go.

One other load i tried was a 10mm x 10mm x 60mm carbon rod as a load.The resistance measured 15 ohms from end to end.The rod exploded as soon as i turned the cooktop on-so that was a very short experiment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOMw487Vdr0
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #170 on: 2013-03-31, 17:26:25 »
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Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2013-03-31, 16:06:28
It's good if coupling is perfect and load resistivity match, but what if they do not match? Is there anything we can do?

If they don't match, there is reactive power.

Quote
I'm now intrigue by resonance.  The Joule Thief able to suck out juice from the battery, but at certain battery voltage (maybe .4V), the circuit stops working.  Resonance can amplify a low voltage to high voltage with high efficient.

Resonance is not an "amplification" but an accumulation, a small amount of energy being added to the circuit at each signal period. An "amplification" is a product, not a sum.

Quote
Imagine a 41 Hertz source driving a 1:1  one Henry transformer with 15 uf cap.  This is the resonance condition.  If you lower the transformer coupling, what happens to the tank circuit?  

See here:
http://ressources.univ-lemans.fr/AccesLibre/UM/Pedago/physique/02/electri/mutuelle.html

It's in French but the simulation applet is easily usable (play with the cursors. Java is needed). M is the coefficient of mutual induction.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #171 on: 2013-03-31, 17:49:13 »
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Quote from: tinman on 2013-03-31, 16:59:19
...
One other load i tried was a 10mm x 10mm x 60mm carbon rod as a load.The resistance measured 15 ohms from end to end.The rod exploded as soon as i turned the cooktop on-so that was a very short experiment.
...

Interesting. If it exploded almost instantly, it's surprising because carbon can resist to very high temperatures. So we can deduce that there is another cause than the heat (mechanical shock due to the current longitudinal wave or to an effect of the magnetic field?), provided that it's the carbon mass itself that exploded, not only at the position of the metallic contacts.
This should be to investigate...

   
img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #172 on: 2013-03-31, 18:05:48 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2013-03-31, 17:49:13
Interesting. If it exploded almost instantly, it's surprising because carbon can resist to very high temperatures. So we can deduce that there is another cause than the heat (mechanical shock due to the current longitudinal wave or to an effect of the magnetic field?), provided that it's the carbon mass itself that exploded, not only at the position of the metallic contacts.
This should be to investigate...


It shattered in the middle of the rod.The only large pieces that were left were the pieces in the alligator clips.At a resistance of 15 ohm's,i wasn't expecting that to happen.With the carbon rod as the load,the cooktop fired up without the s/s pot on top of the coil.I was expecting it to heat up to a high temp,but not instantly explode.I will see if i have any more of those rod's,and make a video for you to see tomorrow Ex.There was a very loud crack,and the carbon pieces were still cold to the touch straight after?.
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #173 on: 2013-03-31, 18:18:29 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2013-03-31, 17:26:25
If they don't match, there is reactive power.

Resonance is not an "amplification" but an accumulation, a small amount of energy being added to the circuit at each signal period. An "amplification" is a product, not a sum.

See here:
http://ressources.univ-lemans.fr/AccesLibre/UM/Pedago/physique/02/electri/mutuelle.html

It's in French but the simulation applet is easily usable (play with the cursors. Java is needed). M is the coefficient of mutual induction.



I meant what can we do do maximize energy transfer to the load.

Yes, it can accumulate voltage to a useful level from low voltage.

When I decrease the coupling in my example, the tank circuit voltage goes up exceeding the input voltage, then it climbs back down, the cycle repeats.  So if you have an oscillating voltage source of say .1V, you can't directly rectify into useful energy via diode, but with resonance, you can rectify it when the peak reach. 

 
   
img  muDped
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #174 on: 2013-03-31, 19:58:24 »

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Quote from: exnihiloest
...and so the resonance has well defined and indispensable characteristics that can be identified in a device but that we don't see  in an induction heater...

Ex,

Perhaps you'd provide your own explanation
of how the "conversion" takes place within
the Induction Cooker?  Where it is within the
Output Circuit (L & C) that "resonance" is
non-existent?

This would go a long way in helping to solve
the riddle...


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
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