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OverUnity Research > General - Free Energy Related > Miscellaneous Discussions (Moderator: Allcanadian) > Naudin's Gegene
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Author Topic: Naudin's Gegene  (Read 214432 times)
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img  exnihiloest
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #125 on: 2013-03-28, 07:52:21 »
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Quote from: Dumped on 2013-03-27, 23:17:20
...

Do you see it? (Resonant Conversion)

Reference #1

Reference #2
...

Do you understand what you read?!  C.C
Explain where is the resonance of an induction heater instead of spreading disinformation by lack of understanding.
   
img  BEP
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #126 on: 2013-03-28, 10:05:08 »
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Why the argument?

The papers cited by Dumped explain resonance, as used in the induction heaters, well enough. There can be no argument that both series and parallel LCR tanks are used in induction cookers.
The presence of a P-N junction in the circuit does not mean that the tank has no resonant point. All that means is that the tank is driven with an external energy source.

Yes, using the word 'resonance' conjures no magical result.

Quote
Explain where is the resonance of an induction heater instead of spreading disinformation by lack of understanding.

We should send a copy of this demand to both major chip manufacturers cited by Dumped.
   
img  muDped
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #127 on: 2013-03-28, 12:15:03 »

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Quote from: exnihiloest
Quote from: Dumped
...

Do you see it? (Resonant Conversion)

Reference #1

Reference #2
...

Do you understand what you read?!   C.C
Explain where is the resonance of an induction heater instead of spreading disinformation by lack of understanding.

Ex,

Surely you jest for the sake of argument?

Do you still not see it?

If you're really serious this is truly baffling.


Quote from: WaveWatcher
There can be no argument that both series and parallel LCR tanks are used in induction cookers.

Aye, it is a longstanding circuit topology
and well documented in all schematic
diagrams.
« Last Edit: 2013-03-28, 13:41:48 by Dumped »


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img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #128 on: 2013-03-28, 13:53:48 »
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Quote from: Dumped on 2013-03-28, 12:15:03
Do you understand what you read?!   C.C
Explain where is the resonance of an induction heater instead of spreading disinformation by lack of understanding.


Ex,

Surely you jest for the sake of argument?

Do you still not see it?

If you're really serious this is truly baffling.


Aye, it is a longstanding circuit topology
and well documented in all schematic
diagrams.
Ex must be having a bad day,as many things have been shown-but blindness still becomes him?
   
img  ion
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #129 on: 2013-03-28, 14:18:07 »
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I understand both points of view. I think the misunderstanding lies in the mixing of the terms  "resonance and quasi resonant".

One explanation (resonance) refers to an undamped  LC oscillation of High Q, where no energy is extracted and energy can accumulate to a higher level with each subsequent cycle until the internal losses prevent further accumulation of energy.

The other explanation (quasi resonant) refers to a carefully controlled energy input to an LC, severely damped or loaded by the workpiece, the amount of input energy carefully matching the load requirement on a cycle by cycle or even half cycle basis. That's why it is called " Quasi Resonant" instead of "Resonant". There is no cycle by cycle accumulation of energy as in the conventional explanation of "Resonance".

EX has correctly identified the differences in his earlier post #24.

While the series resonant half bridge is discussed on pages 10 -11 of the Fairchild document, the virtues of the quasi-resonant is preferred for low power tabletop cookers due to it's simpler implementation
« Last Edit: 2013-03-28, 15:05:54 by ION »


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img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #130 on: 2013-03-28, 16:00:54 »
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Quote from: ION on 2013-03-28, 14:18:07
I understand both points of view. I think the misunderstanding lies in the mixing of the terms  "resonance and quasi resonant".

One explanation (resonance) refers to an undamped  LC oscillation of High Q, where no energy is extracted and energy can accumulate to a higher level with each subsequent cycle until the internal losses prevent further accumulation of energy.

The other explanation (quasi resonant) refers to a carefully controlled energy input to an LC, severely damped or loaded by the workpiece, the amount of input energy carefully matching the load requirement on a cycle by cycle or even half cycle basis. That's why it is called " Quasi Resonant" instead of "Resonant". There is no cycle by cycle accumulation of energy as in the conventional explanation of "Resonance".

EX has correctly identified the differences in his earlier post #24.

While the series resonant half bridge is discussed on pages 10 -11 of the Fairchild document, the virtues of the quasi-resonant is preferred for low power tabletop cookers due to it's simpler implementation

Hi ION
If resonance occurs when the collapsing magnetic field of the inductor generates an electric current  that charges the capacitor, and the discharging capacitor provides an electric current that builds the magnetic field in the inductor, (repeated)-then both must be resonant circuit's.

The difference being,one can be used to do useful work-while the other not so useful.We could look at the two like this.Lets take a child on a swing as an example.With our normal resonant circuit,we would be pushing the child on the swing from behind-or at the peak of the swing.This works well until a load is applied to the child,and the angle of his swing become's less.The person that was pushing the child is in a fixed position,and can no longer reach the child to give him that little push to keep him swinging-so all motion stop's.
Now the quasi resonant circuit could be looked at like this.The person that is pushing the child on the swing is now positioned at the center of the swing-or the pendulums apex.So now even if a load is applied to the child,and the childs angle of swing become's less-the person can still reach him to give him a push in the right direction,as the child still has to pass the center of the swing(0 volt/current line)

As this whole thread is about an induction cook top that is driving a load,and not about a free wheeling resonant circuit-then i believe it correct when it is said that the cook top is a resonant circuit.The quasi driver circuit is just how it maintains resonance while under load.
   
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Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #131 on: 2013-03-28, 16:45:37 »
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You are describing the differences a peak switched or zero voltage switched conversion systems. I have a patent on the latter from the 70's.

You said:
I
Quote
f resonance occurs when the collapsing magnetic field of the inductor generates an electric current  that charges the capacitor, and the discharging capacitor provides an electric current that builds the magnetic field in the inductor, (repeated)-then both must be resonant circuit's.

You are correct, but note that when we absorb nearly all the stored energy in one cycle or even one half cycle, the swing needs another push to do any useful work. The process is not automatically "repeated", but requires another shot of energy input.

This, to me, is very different than a class C oscillator operating in "resonance" where nearly pure sine waves are produced and only a small portion of the Q is lost per cycle.

The definition of quasi: a combining form meaning “resembling,” “having some, but not all of the features of,” used in the formation of compound words.

Although it may "resemble" a resonant circuit because it has some of the features (L and C) it is not strictly a resonant circuit in the pure sense (by actual operation) or there would be no need for engineers and organizations that classify inverter types to use the term "quasi".

You may resemble your brother, but you are not your brother.

We may agree to disagree, both being correct from two differing perspectives.


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img  muDped
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #132 on: 2013-03-28, 17:24:01 »

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In Switch Mode Power Supplies, where
Quasi-Resonant Soft Switching is most
commonly used, the development of a
full cycle of oscillation per driving pulse
is undesirable.

In Resonant Charging applications the
oscillation is typically squelched as well.

In the documentation for the Induction
Cookers the explanation progresses from
Quasi-Resonant Switching (an example)
to the complete diagram of the actual
RF Conversion stage where there are
significant differences in component
locations.

Is the output waveshape of the induction
cooker circuit symmetrical AC (RF) in
nature or does it appear to be asymmetrical?
That may be the telling clue.


---------------------------
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img  tinman
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #133 on: 2013-03-28, 18:32:46 »
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Quote from: ION on 2013-03-28, 16:45:37
You are describing the differences a peak switched or zero voltage switched conversion systems. I have a patent on the latter from the 70's.

You said:
I
You are correct, but note that when we absorb nearly all the stored energy in one cycle or even one half cycle, the swing needs another push to do any useful work. The process is not automatically "repeated", but requires another shot of energy input.

This, to me, is very different than a class C oscillator operating in "resonance" where nearly pure sine waves are produced and only a small portion of the Q is lost per cycle.

The definition of quasi: a combining form meaning “resembling,” “having some, but not all of the features of,” used in the formation of compound words.

Although it may "resemble" a resonant circuit because it has some of the features (L and C) it is not strictly a resonant circuit in the pure sense (by actual operation) or there would be no need for engineers and organizations that classify inverter types to use the term "quasi".

You may resemble your brother, but you are not your brother.

We may agree to disagree, both being correct from two differing perspectives.

Yes,that is exactly what i was saying-peak switching and zero voltage/current switching-the later apparently more efficient.

I agree,i am not my brother-but we opperate in the same way.The more work we do,the more fuel we consume-as with the quasi resonant circuit.
So yes-i do agree with what you say ION,and ex is not incorrect with what he terms to be a resonant circuit.But myself and others here are looking at the brother that is doing useful work,while the other sits in his chair watching TV-just consuming fuel without doing any useful work.

But the question remain's-why dose the second watt meter in the video read more than the first?.There will be no high frequencies comeing from the GTI,as they are designed to match the Grid AC phase-this is why there called grid tie inverters.

It just seems to some that OU is not within our reach,and everything is dismised befor they them self do any testing.OU is very real,and it is right there with you-but blindly missed.You even touched on the existing OU machine your self ION-quote:You may resemble your brother, but you are not your brother.

Now lets look at how much fuel the human body consumes,and how much useful work it can do on that small amount of fuel-thats an OU machine if i have ever seen one.Nature provides the perfect energy converter,and maybe we should be looking more into how that all work's?.But it also makes it believable that an OU device can be built,and we should not dismiss something because of it's simplicity by means of faulse statements.

Quote Ex: 1) the coupling with the flat coil is at around 20 Khz thus the output current is at the same frequency
2) an inverter uses also frequencies at tens of Khz for operating.The input/output difference here is not beyond the experimental error: did you ever see the output from a cheap inverter? The signal is not sine, it's between sine and square often with an irregular shape.
And obviously the output wattmeter is not RMS nor it is designed to handle the high frequency components of the output signal.<<<What high frequency component of the output signal?.

As this is not a normal cheap inverter, this means nothing to the input or output of the GTI with the way romero had his setup.A rectified 20Khz ac frequency wouldnt need too much capacitance to get a smooth(or very close to)DC out.Looking at romero's setup,i would think 40 000uf would be more than enough.
Then comment 2-an inverter uses also frequencies at tens of Khz for operating.-What has that got to do with the AC output of the GTI? If this is how it converts the DC input to get it's AC output,then what dose that have to do with any part of what the watt meters are reading?.

These are comments that do not help in any way at all in finding out wether a system has merrit or not,and these kind of comments just confuse people even more.If i am to go out and spend $110.00 on a cook top,then i would hope that i would get information that will aid me in my reserch.To get anywhere,we must all stand together.This means putting forth information that has an effect on the outcome,wether that be good or bad for us.But negative comments that have no effect on the outcome ,just are not warranted.
   
img  ion
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #134 on: 2013-03-28, 18:45:11 »
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Dumped remarked:

Quote
Is the output waveshape of the induction
cooker circuit symmetrical AC (RF) in
nature or does it appear to be asymmetrical?
That may be the telling clue.

This probably depends on the coupling efficiency to the cooking vessel and what material it is made of.

Ideally, it would reflect to the driving coil as a near short circuit. If this were possible, there would be no net inductance in the driving coil. Since coupling is far less than perfect, the coupling coefficient will go down and the inductance will appear on the drive coil and in the circuit. The inductance will appear to have a large value resistance in series with it (or small resistor in parallel depending on the configuration).

The current waveforms in the Fairchild app for Quasi Resonant Convertor show a very distorted (non sinusoidal)  wave.


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img  wings
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #135 on: 2013-03-28, 20:04:11 »
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img  PhysicsProf
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #136 on: 2013-03-28, 20:51:07 »
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Quote from: wings on 2013-03-28, 20:04:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4wzJdd9Lb8
 ;)

Thanks for that, wings.  Is this fellow-researcher in Russia?  clever fellow...

I liked the way he removed the coil from the stove, then placed BPCoils on either side of it.
Also, nice test with the metal disk in the glass bowl + water.  Wish he had measured the temp rise, then compared the Qheating (KJ, convert to KW-h) with Energy input (KW-h).  I can do that... ;)
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #137 on: 2013-03-29, 10:03:30 »
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Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2013-03-28, 10:05:08
Why the argument?

The papers cited by Dumped explain resonance
...

@dumped and ww

No, they don't. Misinterpretation or disinformation.

What is resonant in an induction heater? Wich compoents are concerned? Why?. No answer.

Neither Dumped nor you have been able to explain where and why there would be a resonance, and so giving whatever links not directly related to the exact point in discussion is the easy way to elude the subject and saving face. This is ridiculous.
   
img  BEP
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #138 on: 2013-03-29, 15:11:41 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2013-03-29, 10:03:30
@dumped and ww

No, they don't. Misinterpretation or disinformation.

What is resonant in an induction heater? Wich compoents are concerned? Why?. No answer.

Neither Dumped nor you have been able to explain where and why there would be a resonance, and so giving whatever links not directly related to the exact point in discussion is the easy way to elude the subject and saving face. This is ridiculous.



The papers explain it well enough.

Resonance is not as simple as the point at which all components in a circuit provide the highest possible stored energy. It is also the point where the least or most amount of impedance is provided against a signal or the 'forcefully controlled frequency of operations.

In the first and most commonly known example of a parallel resonance RCL tank the highest amount of energy is stored at the resonant frequency at a certain 'Q'.
In the second it is more properly known as anti-resonance as in a series RCL circuit which can be used as a high or low pass filter. In the third - yes, correctly known as quasi-resonance, it is a  controlled frequency of operation. That control is enforced by the use of switching devices inserted into the the RCL tank.

Probably the most prolific example of controlled resonance is with the use of a varactor - as is used in digitally tuned radio receivers. This example replaces the capacitive function with a voltage controlled capacitance or may use current controlled inductance.

In the case of the inductive heater examples the resonance is controlled by the switching of the energy source. Yes, this switched signal frequency is not the simple resonant frequency of the RCL but is varied to meet the total resonance of the coil plus the metal of the pan.

Another difference and I think the main reason that simple resonance is not allowed on the induction heater is because the best energy transfer would not occur at the simple resonance of the RCL and the pan. It must be forced to the zero sequence harmonics to produce the greatest ohmic losses. This would produce the quickest translation to heat in the pan.

This could then be why an induction heater can boil water much quicker than a radiant heater.

What resonance really boils down to is the point at which all devices in the circuit operate to the intended point. Resonance is not just the the F1 frequency of the plucked string.

In any case, disagreements in term definition is not a valid reason to insult those not agreeing with you.
  
« Last Edit: 2013-03-29, 15:45:36 by WaveWatcher »
   
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Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #139 on: 2013-03-29, 15:44:06 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Another simple method to test the efficiency of the pancake coil on an induction cooker.

1) Heat a known quantity of water in the induction container to a recorded temperature e.g. the boiling point 100C. Record elapsed kWhr.

2) Remove the induction vessel, cool it and refill with the identical amount of water.

3) Now place the pancake coil on the induction cooker, terminate it's output into a non inductive resistor that is immersed in the water induction vessel. The induction vessel is now a short distance away and not directly heated by the induction coil.

4) Now heat the water to boiling 100C using the immersed resistor while recording elapsed kWHr.

Conclusion: Did it take more or less elapsed kWHr input to heat the water using straight induction vs. pancake coil and resistive load on it's output?

A non-inductive resistor can be made from a length of carbon rod of the appropriate diameter and length with terminations. It should match the impedance of the pancake coil.



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img  BEP
Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #140 on: 2013-03-29, 15:53:23 »
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Just an FYI...

It is very possible a pancake coil is used simply because rotation would not occur with a solenoid coil even when the tank circuit is forced to operate at negative sequence subharmonics of the tank circuit. This would mean my idea of using zero sequence harmonics for best ohmic losses are off as using negative sequence subharmonics could create a rotation in the pan base which would be more efficient in the creation of heat.
   
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Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #141 on: 2013-03-29, 18:20:14 »

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Quote from: exnihiloest
Neither Dumped nor you have been able to explain where and why there would be a resonance, and so giving whatever links not directly related to the exact point in discussion is the easy way to elude the subject and saving face. This is ridiculous.

Each of documents explains the resonant
circuit comprised of the Coil and its parallel
Capacitor (Cr) which accomplishes the conversion
from DC pulses to RF energy. It is self evident.

It is explained how the DC pulses shock excite
the resonant circuit to generate the circulating
current;  how the control circuit monitors "loading"
to modify pulsing in order to maintain a large
magnitude of circulating current to effect efficient
energy transfer from the resonant circuit to the
metallic surface Load.

It is explained how Loading tends to decrease the
frequency of resonance and how the Control Circuit
compensates to assure adequate output power.

Its similarities to an RF PA in a high powered Radio
Transmitter are significant.
« Last Edit: 2013-03-29, 19:47:44 by Dumped »


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Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #142 on: 2013-03-29, 20:37:21 »
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 So I'm climbing the learning curve on this one.

  As I read about induction cookers, finding that the heating of the pan is from two sources:

1.  Induced (Eddy) currents, and resistance in the pan

2.  Hysteresis losses, hence the "requirement" for a ferro-magnetic pan.  Some steel pans do not work well because of this (IIRC).

My question -- I assume a pancake coil picks up energy only by (1), and the needed resistance is in the load -- since copper is not ferro-magnetic. So, is "ferro-magnetic" not required? 
   
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Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #143 on: 2013-03-29, 21:01:17 »

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tExB=qr
Am I missing something?

Naudin's latest updates don't show OU, just high efficiency.

This gives me an idea:  You should be able to increase the efficiency of a circuit by nudging the electrons with repeated kicks at the right rate.
   
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Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #144 on: 2013-03-29, 22:19:59 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2013-03-29, 20:37:21
So I'm climbing the learning curve on this one.

  As I read about induction cookers, finding that the heating of the pan is from two sources:

1.  Induced (Eddy) currents, and resistance in the pan

2.  Hysteresis losses, hence the "requirement" for a ferro-magnetic pan.  Some steel pans do not work well because of this (IIRC).

My question -- I assume a pancake coil picks up energy only by (1), and the needed resistance is in the load -- since copper is not ferro-magnetic. So, is "ferro-magnetic" not required? 

I'm sure ferromagnetic is a requirement on any induction cooker that does not use a planar coil and the planar coil drive does not create rotational eddy currents. I saw an 'all metal' induction stove top in a big-box store while in-tow by the Wife a couple of days ago.
If you are trying to 'cook' another planar coil then I think you have only made a transformer.
   
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Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #145 on: 2013-03-29, 22:39:45 »
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Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2013-03-29, 22:19:59
I'm sure ferromagnetic is a requirement on any induction cooker that does not use a planar coil and the planar coil drive does not create rotational eddy currents.


  Can you explain this further, WW?   How would such an induction cooker work?
   
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Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #146 on: 2013-03-29, 23:19:20 »
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It's turtles all the way down
I found this on induction cookware:

Quote
"Not all pieces of cookware can be used on induction cooktops and stoves. Since induction technology uses the power of magnetism, the cookware piece itself must be magnetic and have a flat bottom. For this reason, cookware made from aluminum, copper or glass, including Pyrex will not work on its own.

Induction cookware must be made of a magnetic-based material, such as cast iron or magnetic stainless steel. Fully clad cookware brands, such as All-Clad Stainless, Viking cookware and Mauviel M'cooks stainless work on induction cooktops because they're magnetic. Cast Iron cookware also works on induction, like Staub.

If you're not sure if your cookware will work with induction cooktops, try sticking a magnet to your cookware. If it sticks, it should work; if it doesn't, most likely it is not induction compatible."


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Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #147 on: 2013-03-29, 23:35:15 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2013-03-29, 20:37:21
So, is "ferro-magnetic" not required? 
I would say that if the receiver coil is loaded, it should appear as a load to the cooker as if a pan were there. Probably some differences if the receiver coil is reactive to the output freq of the cooker, and/or less or more load depending.

If the coil is not loaded enough, this might be why some need to start the cooker with a pan on top of the coil briefly and possibly once running and the pan is removed, the loaded coil is able to keep the cooker active after starting.

Mags
   
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Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #148 on: 2013-03-30, 00:23:52 »

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I am not paying attention to this subject to avoid becoming like butter spread over too much bread, as Bilbo would say, but a brief read of the latest posts suggests this information might be of use to you all:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramagnetic

RIM.


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Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #149 on: 2013-03-30, 01:10:31 »
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Quote from: ION on 2013-03-29, 23:19:20
I found this on induction cookware:
 Since induction technology uses the power of magnetism, the cookware piece itself must be magnetic and have a flat bottom. For this reason, cookware made from aluminum, copper or glass, including Pyrex will not work on its own.


Yet, a copper BPC coil DOES work, as empirically observed.  I would like to understand why various informed articles say that the cookware MUST be magnetic, meaning will attract to a magnet, when a copper BPC coil + load works just fine, empirically. 

My thought -- Perhaps its just a matter of efficiency, that ferro-magnetic cookware will be heated by both eddy currents and by hysteresis losses...  Surprising anyway, and I do think this technology bears further scrutiny.
   
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