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Author Topic: Naudin's Gegene  (Read 214463 times)
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I copied a portion of the script that JNL used to calculate the power...

I still see the best way to handle power measurement is the kettle (calorimetry) method:
This is an early test of his:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/gegene07en.htm

Here, he declares that the kettle runs at an efficiency of 72%, giving an overall efficiency of
the system as 96%.
   
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As the miracle is presumed to come from the coupling with the marvelous bifilar coil, another way to prove an ordinary functioning would be to take the output power directly from the primary coil connection and to show that we have the same power or a bit higher power. This configuration being conventional, then it should be concluded that there is a measurement error.


   
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As the miracle is presumed to come from the coupling with the marvelous bifilar coil, another way to prove an ordinary functioning would be to take the output power directly from the primary coil connection and to show that we have the same power or a bit higher power. This configuration being conventional, then it should be concluded that there is a measurement error.



I dont think that would work,as it would change the resistance that the circuit see's.
Also i would think that the circuit would be some what tuned to the coil ?
   
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I dont think that would work,as it would change the resistance that the circuit see's.
Also i would think that the circuit would be some what tuned to the coil ?

Exactly what do you think a transformer secondary such as the bifilar does when loaded with a resistance?

Secondary loads are reflected to the primary (driving coil) according to the coupling co-efficient and in consideration of stray or leakage inductance.

If one thinks there is some type of magic when utilizing pancake coils as opposed to conventional windings, one need only to construct a simple transformer using this technique and measure the input power vs. output power vs. frequency using a conventional benchtop pulse generator. All the theatrics with tabletop cookers and banks of lamps is diversion from basic measurement.
« Last Edit: 2013-02-13, 13:36:44 by ION »


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I dont think that would work,as it would change the resistance that the circuit see's.
...

Why do you think so?!

   
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...
If one thinks there is some type of magic when utilizing pancake coils as opposed to conventional windings, one need only to construct a simple transformer using this technique and measure the input power vs. output power vs. frequency using a conventional benchtop pulse generator.
...

Of course. It's the method for rational people: where the (alleged) extra-energy comes from? Thanks to which component? At what location in the circuit?
But a believer has not to test his faith, this is useless because he is intimately sure that the magic is in the way the coil is wound, and in any case, elementary measurements won't work because this magic can't be expressed by an impedance with L and C nor be exprimented with these stupid methods for academic physicists and engineers. And so, a big mess of electronics components is preferable to evade the issue C.C.

   
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In constructing a pancake transformer, do you mean like placing a pancake coil on top of the induction heater pancake coil?

Mags
   
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I dont think I have seen a Tesla pat. that shows 2 pancakes face to face.

What I did see is a primary, of few turns, around the perimeter or circumference of the pancake, on the same plane. Or the other way around where the pancake is the primary and the outer windings are the secondary. A step down.

If Tesla meant for the pancakes to be face to face, we might have seen drawings of that. If we look at the large vertical pancake sitting behind Tesla in one of the pics of him, you will notice that it doesnt look like the same size wire throughout. ;)

I believe that the outer edge of the pancake , on the same plane, is where all the action is.  Maybe even in the center, but I have not seen anything of the sort, unless we consider a Tesla coil, as we see them.  I have seen the primary of a tall tube Tesla coil be made as a pancake, with the tall secondary in the middle.

Mags
   
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Exactly what do you think a transformer secondary such as the bifilar does when loaded with a resistance?

Secondary loads are reflected to the primary (driving coil) according to the coupling co-efficient and in consideration of stray or leakage inductance.

If one thinks there is some type of magic when utilizing pancake coils as opposed to conventional windings, one need only to construct a simple transformer using this technique and measure the input power vs. output power vs. frequency using a conventional benchtop pulse generator. All the theatrics with tabletop cookers and banks of lamps is diversion from basic measurement.
Where not talking about loads of coils or transformers here.
Exnihiloest description was-output power directly from the primary coil connection
So the circuit will not be seeing a load from the coil,but directly from the lights them self.
When you add resistance(the globe's) to another resistance(the coil)you lower the total resistance-so the circuit will be seeing a lower resistance.
At those frequencies the coil will have a very high resistance due to the skin effect,although they try to eliminate that some what by useing litz wire.

As far as the BPC go's-they are far better transmiters and recievers than that of a standard coil of the same size and same amount of wire.
This has been shown many times by many people.

As far as naudens system go's-well i have no doubt that it is as you say-all smoke-no fire.
But i will say that it is possable to pull a load from the seconary of a transformer without it reflecting on the primary current supply-but it must be a rotational transformer/motor setup.
1 action-2 reactions
   
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tinman said:

Quote
As far as the BPC go's-they are far better transmiters and recievers than that of a standard coil of the same size and same amount of wire.
This has been shown many times by many people.

As far as naudens system go's-well i have no doubt that it is as you say-all smoke-no fire.
But i will say that it is possable to pull a load from the seconary of a transformer without it reflecting on the primary current supply-but it must be a rotational transformer/motor setup.
1 action-2 reactions

If BPC's are far better in a transmitter / receiver configuration than a standard coil of the same size / amount, then this should be able to be proven with a clear scientific investigation of power transfer.

Thus far all we have seen is folks lighting LED's with no attempt at accurate power transfer measurement. This is hard to take seriously.

As far as the second statement (no reflection of load in rotary transformer) kindly show an example of this claim, as the inventor would surely qualify for the OU prize and possible Nobel nominee.

The only case I know of a transformer violating the normal input / output relationship is in the case of a heavily saturated transformer core (large core loss) when there is no load on the secondary. Then the addition of a small load appears to not be reflected in primary current increase, where in reality power was shifted from large core loss to the load, and may actually appear as a slight input power drop. This mistake is often repeated.

Thane Heins has gotten away with this error for a long time. He fails to account for power shifted from heating the core to energizing the load, because in his measurements he does not consider heating losses.


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Of course. It's the method for rational people: where the (alleged) extra-energy comes from? Thanks to which component?

Do you really not know the answerto that question? Maybe you are being sarcastic.
   
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Do you really not know the answerto that question? Maybe you are being sarcastic.

The questions : "where the (alleged) extra-energy comes from? Thanks to which component?" are questions that anybody observing OU should ask himself, and so lead experiments to locate the elementary effect instead of leading stupid experiments as using the output power to produce HHO!
Output power>input power means that somewhere in the circuit, energy is added. In electronics circuits, it's very easy for any technician having access to each component, to see where. In the gegene, is it before or after the primary coil? Make the same measurement with the same equipement for the primary coil as for the secondary coil, and you will get the answer. So simple...

   
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tinman said:

If BPC's are far better in a transmitter / receiver configuration than a standard coil of the same size / amount, then this should be able to be proven with a clear scientific investigation of power transfer.

Thus far all we have seen is folks lighting LED's with no attempt at accurate power transfer measurement. This is hard to take seriously.

As far as the second statement (no reflection of load in rotary transformer) kindly show an example of this claim, as the inventor would surely qualify for the OU prize and possible Nobel nominee.

The only case I know of a transformer violating the normal input / output relationship is in the case of a heavily saturated transformer core (large core loss) when there is no load on the secondary. Then the addition of a small load appears to not be reflected in primary current increase, where in reality power was shifted from large core loss to the load, and may actually appear as a slight input power drop. This mistake is often repeated.

Thane Heins has gotten away with this error for a long time. He fails to account for power shifted from heating the core to energizing the load, because in his measurements he does not consider heating losses.
I will be starting a new thread soon on the rotory transformer.
It will be a pulse motor thread-but not the good old bendini brand.
The aim is to put the end product side by side against a normal electric motor,and see the difference in efficiency.
I dont see any Noble prizes comeing up,but maybe a different way to look at the operation of the simple electric motor.

As far as Thane Heins go's-well im with you on that one.
   
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...
The aim is to put the end product side by side against a normal electric motor,and see the difference in efficiency.
...

The efficiency of the best conventional electrical motors exceed 95%, so imho the interest to try to improve such a high level is very weak. Only OU could be a real progress and for that, we don't need to compete with conventional technology, we have just to show a self-sustaining device.

   
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The efficiency of the best conventional electrical motors exceed 95%, so imho the interest to try to improve such a high level is very weak. Only OU could be a real progress and for that, we don't need to compete with conventional technology, we have just to show a self-sustaining device.


Self sustaining devices have been around for a long time,so i dont think they are quite the words to use.
What you guys are looking for is some complicated system that pull's in some magical energy from some mystical place.
Then we want all these complicated measurments taken,so as we can proove that our system make's more energy than it consume's.
Then we get things like-the meters are reading it wrong,the scope is seeing this insted of that,or all you have is some sort of battery effect taking place-and the battery will die soon.
Free energy devices are already here-overunity devices in that they put out more than they consume can not exist,as the energy has to come from some where.
They fact that energy can neither be created or destroyed makes the above true.

So if we already have self sustaining devices,and overunity can not be achieved-what exactly are you expecting or wanting to see?
All i see that can be done ,is improvements to what we already have.
If the best motors are at 95% efficiency,then lets aim for 97%.
There is no harm in trying something new.
   
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Self sustaining devices have been around for a long time,so i dont think they are quite the words to use.
What you guys are looking for is some complicated system that pull's in some magical energy from some mystical place.
Then we want all these complicated measurments taken,so as we can proove that our system make's more energy than it consume's.
Then we get things like-the meters are reading it wrong,the scope is seeing this insted of that,or all you have is some sort of battery effect taking place-and the battery will die soon.
Free energy devices are already here-overunity devices in that they put out more than they consume can not exist,as the energy has to come from some where.
They fact that energy can neither be created or destroyed makes the above true.

So if we already have self sustaining devices,and overunity can not be achieved-what exactly are you expecting or wanting to see?
All i see that can be done ,is improvements to what we already have.
If the best motors are at 95% efficiency,then lets aim for 97%.
There is no harm in trying something new.

If this is your position statement, it speaks volumes.


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If this is your position statement, it speaks volumes.
Ok Ion-i have to say that i dont understand your statement?
   
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Ok Ion-i have to say that i dont understand your statement?

Nor do I understand your statements contained in the quote I referenced. Not sure what you are trying to say and with so many possible interpretations, it speaks volumes.

Maybe a clearer statement would help, or am I just not getting it?


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Nor do I understand your statements contained in the quote I referenced. Not sure what you are trying to say and with so many possible interpretations, it speaks volumes.

Maybe a clearer statement would help, or am I just not getting it?
Well the quote you stated of mine was a reply to exnihiloest post.
He stated that-Only OU could be a real progress
To which i replied-overunity devices in that they put out more than they consume can not exist,as the energy has to come from some where.
The fact that energy can neither be created or destroyed makes the above true.

He also stated-we don't need to compete with conventional technology, we have just to show a self-sustaining device.
My reply was-Self sustaining devices have been around for a long time,so i dont think they are quite the words to use.
 His other staetment was-The efficiency of the best conventional electrical motors exceed 95%, so imho the interest to try to improve such a high level is very weak.
I said there was no harm in trying to get more efficiency,maybe 97%.

So im not sure as to why you think my comments speak volume's?
But anyway,only answers can be found through experimentation.
   
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Perhaps a clear definition of a "self sustaining device" is necessary to add some light to the confusion.

Regarding your statement :

Quote
I said there was no harm in trying to get more efficiency,maybe 97%.

True, incremental improvements are worthwhile and are being pursued worldwide to alleviate the energy crisis, and is the subject of many other forums, however the intent of this forum is overunity research. In that regard we can view EX's statement:

Quote
Only OU could be a real progress

as true in regards to OUR intent.

Then your statement:

Quote
Then we want all these complicated measurments taken,so as we can proove that our system make's more energy than it consume's.
Then we get things like-the meters are reading it wrong,the scope is seeing this insted of that,or all you have is some sort of battery effect taking place-and the battery will die soon.

Could you clarify this one as it seems you are against accurate measurement?

I've observed the FE  claims for over 30 years and have found that most of the "eurekas!!" are due to faulty measurement or inexperience in observing or interpreting data. Do you imply that we should not measure and record?


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...
Free energy devices are already here-overunity devices in that they put out more than they consume can not exist,as the energy has to come from some where.

It is a banality to say it.  "Overunity" is relative to an apparently closed system. If it produces more than it consumes, naturally there is a strong suspiscion that the system is not closed and the energy comes from an unknown source elsewhere.

Quote
They fact that energy can neither be created or destroyed makes the above true.

Energy conservation is an observed fact. Now there is no absolute rule. For example, in a multiverse theory such this from Everett, where two universes interfer, energy could pass from one to another.
Science is not the "truth". Science is the best human knowledge of our world, at a given time. It must be known but it's not the bible: if it is confirmed that observations contradict a theory, the theory must be abandonned or revised.

Quote
...
All i see that can be done ,is improvements to what we already have.

Imagine that you said this in year 1800 when only stream engines were known. You would have worked to improved engines limited by the Carnot cycle. But in 1820, Oersted would have shown you that electricity can exert a mechanical force, and this discovery led to electrical motors with a potential efficiency exceeding 95% in practice, much better than your heat engines.
For improving the actual technology, there are many engineers and scientists working every day in the public and private sectors. They don't need help. Only a breaking technology is needed, as was electricity relative to heat engines.

Quote
If the best motors are at 95% efficiency,then lets aim for 97%.
There is no harm in trying something new.

No interest at this level, it's "overquality": much work for almost nothing, useless to solve the energy crisis.
If you really want work on conventional devices, only heat engine need to be improved, or thermoelectric converter...

   
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while we argue about OU,  JNL is lighting up 1800 watt bulbs, while making tea and heating up his room, all this from an innocent looking induction stove box, with a nice LCD display on the front.   LOL    :D


   
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Perhaps a clear definition of a "self sustaining device" is necessary to add some light to the confusion.

Regarding your statement :

True, incremental improvements are worthwhile and are being pursued worldwide to alleviate the energy crisis, and is the subject of many other forums, however the intent of this forum is overunity research. In that regard we can view EX's statement:

as true in regards to OUR intent.

Then your statement:

Could you clarify this one as it seems you are against accurate measurement?

I've observed the FE  claims for over 30 years and have found that most of the "eurekas!!" are due to faulty measurement or inexperience in observing or interpreting data. Do you imply that we should not measure and record?

No Ion,i am in no way against accurate measurements-infact quite the opposite.
I have almost been tricked myself with what seem'd to be OU measurements,but by listening to others -i could see where my error was being made.
My point was and as is yours,accurate measurements are hard to make in some system's-and all to often lead to faulse eureka moment's:as you put it:

My aim is to have a motor/generator setup running off of caps only,with enough energy left over to run 1 LED.]
This in itself would require no complicated measrements,as long as the caps maintained a constant voltage while the system was running from only those cap's.
   
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while we argue about OU,  JNL is lighting up 1800 watt bulbs, while making tea and heating up his room, all this from an innocent looking induction stove box, with a nice LCD display on the front.   LOL    :D

and because of him, the price of induction cookers has been multiplied by 100 in France due to additional taxes from the government sensing the jackpot ;D.

   
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From tinman;

Quote
My aim is to have a motor/generator setup running off of caps only,with enough energy left over to run 1 LED.]
This in itself would require no complicated measrements,as long as the caps maintained a constant voltage while the system was running from only those cap's.

This is a worthy goal, and the use of caps will allow you to make a quick assessment of viability. Batteries will fool you every time in the short run. Such a system (using batteries) with just a  single LED would have to be run for a very long time to prove OU , and would require precise measurement and stable temperature.

Capacitors will cut the time and measurement work considerably.

From Em:

Quote
while we argue about OU,  JNL is lighting up 1800 watt bulbs, while making tea and heating up his room, all this from an innocent looking induction stove box, with a nice LCD display on the front.   LOL   

Prediction: When he gets all his measurement errors untangled, he will find he has built an "Electronic Rube Goldberg"

Wet Blanket: A plain old resistive heater (with digital readout if you like) plugged directly into the mains will accomplish the same heating task with far fewer components, practically zero EMI and will have a much longer life expectancy, not to mention a lower shock hazard.


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