Naudin's Gegene

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Author Topic: Naudin's Gegene (Read 214399 times)

PhysicsProf	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #200 on: 2013-04-02, 23:16:12 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	Quote from: Grumpy on 2013-04-02, 18:22:56 Quick sanity check: Is the "extra power" within the margin of error for the measuring method? Not claiming "extra power" with these experiments, rather Quote Pout/Pin 65% Pout/Pin 66%, 65% Note that Pout < Pin. Margin of error is several percent I think.

Grumpy	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #201 on: 2013-04-02, 23:18:36 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2013-04-02, 23:16:12 Not claiming "extra power" with these experiments, rather Note that Pout < Pin. Margin of error is several percent I think. no extra power? then why all the interest in this?

PhysicsProf	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #202 on: 2013-04-02, 23:22:07 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	Quote from: ION on 2013-04-02, 21:57:30 From Physicsprof: Why will you be running three of them in series? What is the Wattage of each at 120 Volts? What is the RMS voltage output of your BPC coil with a reasonable load? Note that they may have some inductance if they are Nichrome wound types. I mean "up to three", as I have three of them IIRC. The "wattage" of each is 300 W @ 120V. I have no idea what is the RMS voltage output of my BPC coil with a reasonable load... have yet to try the BPC coil over the induction cooker. Yes, I expect they are nichrome - two turns, 1" diam. Your suggestions are welcomed.

PhysicsProf	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #203 on: 2013-04-02, 23:29:12 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	Quote from: Grumpy on 2013-04-02, 23:18:36 no extra power? then why all the interest in this? Look, I'm just getting started with this approach. Be patient! Maybe the BPCoil(s) will show something interesting, maybe not; but I will attempt to measure Pout (not just light bulbs,, as interesting as that may be). Probably I won't post results for a while...

Grumpy	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #204 on: 2013-04-02, 23:46:36 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Naudin's results "imply" extra energy in some of his tests.

PhysicsProf	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #205 on: 2013-04-03, 00:35:46 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	Quote from: Grumpy on 2013-04-02, 23:46:36 Naudin's results "imply" extra energy in some of his tests. Right, but not in his calorimetry test IIRC -- and that to me was his "best method". I'm leading up to a calorimetric test...

ion	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #206 on: 2013-04-03, 00:56:58 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2013-04-02, 23:22:07 I mean "up to three", as I have three of them IIRC. The "wattage" of each is 300 W @ 120V. I have no idea what is the RMS voltage output of my BPC coil with a reasonable load... have yet to try the BPC coil over the induction cooker. Yes, I expect they are nichrome - two turns, 1" diam. Your suggestions are welcomed. Ok A couple of points to consider. If the BPC turns equals the turns of the internal cooker coil, then you have a 1:1 air core transformer and you should get approximately the equivalent of the line voltage as the voltage output of your BPC, so driving a single immersion heater should be ok. You may be able to drive two or three in parallel to get a better power transfer. If the BPC turns are a lot greater than the induction cooker coil, you will have some step up ratio of voltage based on the turns ratio. This could be excessive for a 120 Volt immersion heater. You may need to start with two in series. As for the two turns you see on your immersion heater, that is just the outer casing. Internally there are probably many turns wound on a mandrel and swaged (drawn down in diameter) into the heater casing with an insulating ceramic powder, so the inductance could be higher than expected. For safety, maybe start with one heater and a 2.5 amp fuse in series with it. 300W/120V=2.5 Amps. If this blows you know your voltage output is higher than 120. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

EMdevices	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #207 on: 2013-04-03, 04:53:08 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Quote from: Grumpy on 2013-04-01, 18:08:02 I first posted this back in 2008 on OU: ============================================ Resonance" is only a means to obtain very high voltage. TFC Books has a book that details a lengthy interview between Tesla and his Attorneys: http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/nt_on_ac.htm On page 100 of that book Tesla states the following: --- Quote --- There are two ways in which you can operate if you have a reciever of that kind. (Tesla is refering to his system depicted in patent 645,576) One is by linking, closely, your working circuit with the primary excited circuit. The other is by linking it loosely, and then working up the pressure by resonance. You will find that you can do much better, if you have such a device, to produce the necessary pressure by turns, than by resonant rise, because if you want to excite it by resonance you have to link only a few lines; start with a very low electromotive force and work it up. But, if you have such a device as I have described, you can obtain any pressure you like by a few secondary turns. I have invented such an instrument and have demonstrated its efficacy. --- End quote --- That is some good reading G, but I'm not sure how to tell page numbers from the HTML page?

EMdevices	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #208 on: 2013-04-03, 05:05:11 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Quote from: Grumpy on 2013-04-02, 17:16:58 EX, Apology accepted. attached is an image of the internal components of a typical induction cooker: These Induction Heaters, although not resonant, are actually the perfect driver circuits for an electronic Tesla coil. The only thing missing is the long secondary coil. However, at the low frequencies that the induction heater circuit operates (say 25 kHz), the secondary coil would be quite big and large to hit resonance, but it should produce quite a shown if designed correctly. EM

exnihiloest	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #209 on: 2013-04-03, 07:42:03 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: EMdevices on 2013-04-03, 05:05:11 ... the secondary coil would be quite big and large to hit resonance, but it should produce quite a shown if designed correctly. ... It's terrible this absurd need of "resonance". There is no resonance in a transformer. A coil coupled to another one is a transformer. A "resonance" is a particular case requiring conditions that are clearly missing in the Naudin's gegene. Coil "quite big and large" is not one of them. There can be coils "quite big and large" with resonance and coils "quite big and large" without resonance. A resonance is not needed for a coupling. Not only there is not a single sign of resonance in the gegene, but there are many signs of non-resonance. It should be a good idea to abandon this nonsense.

Peterae	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #210 on: 2013-04-03, 11:01:48 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Good work PhysicsProf, that fan seems to be connected to a low voltage power supply, if you can follow the wires back, it should be clear if they go to the mains hot side or a low voltage supply, i would imagine it will be a 12V fan at a guess, it's much easier to control the RPM for cooling using Low Volts.

EMdevices	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #211 on: 2013-04-03, 12:20:57 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Quote from: exnihiloest on 2013-04-03, 07:42:03 It's terrible this absurd need of "resonance". There is no resonance in a transformer. A coil coupled to another one is a transformer. A "resonance" is a particular case requiring conditions that are clearly missing in the Naudin's gegene. Coil "quite big and large" is not one of them. There can be coils "quite big and large" with resonance and coils "quite big and large" without resonance. A resonance is not needed for a coupling. Not only there is not a single sign of resonance in the gegene, but there are many signs of non-resonance. It should be a good idea to abandon this nonsense. Yes, very true, there is no resonance utilized in the Gegene. However, imagine the voltage amplification you could get from a Tesla secondary coil placed on top of the induction cooker! Tesla would of loved an induction stove as a Christmas gift! EM PS. Are you saying that resonance is useless, generally speaking? I hope you are not, because resonance plays an important role in electronics. For example a band pass filter utilizes resonance and only passes frequencies close to where the inductive reactance equals the capacitive reactance and cancels it, leaving only the resistance in a series configuration. (The bandwidth influenced by the Q of the circuit)

tinman	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #212 on: 2013-04-03, 13:47:19 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: EMdevices on 2013-04-03, 12:20:57 Yes, very true, there is no resonance utilized in the Gegene. However, imagine the voltage amplification you could get from a Tesla secondary coil placed on top of the induction cooker! Tesla would of loved an induction stove as a Christmas gift! EM PS. Are you saying that resonance is useless, generally speaking? Well radio wouldnt work to well without resonance.This is one good example where power is drawn from a resonant circuit-radio.It is also how they tell how many people(a near figure)are tuned into there radio station-by the amount of power being drawn from that resonant system. Quote from wikipedia: The transmitter sends the modulated electrical energy to a tuned resonant antenna; this structure converts the rapidly changing alternating current into an electromagnetic wave that can move through free space. So the more people that are tuned into that radio station,the more power is drawn from that resonant transmiter.From this power draw,they can take a guess as to how many people are tuned in.

Grumpy	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #213 on: 2013-04-03, 14:45:21 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	A radio is not a power line.

tinman	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #214 on: 2013-04-03, 15:02:13 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Grumpy on 2013-04-03, 14:45:21 A radio is not a power line. And your point is?

tinman	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #215 on: 2013-04-03, 15:07:43 »
Group: Guest	Here is the first run with 2000 watt's of halogen globe's.From a visual point of view-they are not as bright as when they are plugged into the grid,but we are only using just over half the amount of watt's as well.The wave form on the scope looks terrable-as Ex stated.We seem to have a high voltage but a low current from the bottom side of the wave???.This video is just to show how things are progressing-nothing more. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usrtJGfF_l8

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #216 on: 2013-04-03, 15:38:53 »
Group: Guest	To say that a coil is completely absent of resonance doesn't sounds quite right, on simulation, maybe. It's the same as saying a wire doesn't have any inductance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-capacitance#Self-capacitance Self-capacitance In electrical circuits, the term capacitance is usually a shorthand for the mutual capacitance between two adjacent conductors, such as the two plates of a capacitor. However, for an isolated conductor there also exists a property called self-capacitance, which is the amount of electrical charge that must be added to an isolated conductor to raise its electrical potential by one unit (i.e. one volt, in most measurement systems).[20] The reference point for this potential is a theoretical hollow conducting sphere, of infinite radius, centered on the conductor. Using this method, the self-capacitance of a conducting sphere of radius R is given by:[21] C=4\pi\varepsilon_0R \, Example values of self-capacitance are: for the top "plate" of a van de Graaff generator, typically a sphere 20 cm in radius: 20 pF the planet Earth: about 710 µF[22] The capacitative component of a coil, which reduces its impedance at high frequencies and can lead to resonance and self-oscillation, is also called self-capacitance[23] as well as stray or parasitic capacitance. Besides, Tinman and Naudin Jean waveform doesn't look completely square.

PhysicsProf	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #217 on: 2013-04-03, 16:21:29 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	Quote from: tinman on 2013-04-03, 15:07:43 Here is the first run with 2000 watt's of halogen globe's.From a visual point of view-they are not as bright as when they are plugged into the grid,but we are only using just over half the amount of watt's as well.The wave form on the scope looks terrable-as Ex stated.We seem to have a high voltage but a low current from the bottom side of the wave???.This video is just to show how things are progressing-nothing more. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usrtJGfF_l8 Very interesting run, thank you, Tinman. How do you propose to measure the output power or energy? (Especially since the waveform is non-sinusoidal and the freq is about 20KHz.)

Paul-R	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #218 on: 2013-04-03, 16:58:58 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: exnihiloest on 2013-04-02, 16:52:55 "What is resonant in an induction heater? Which components are concerned? Why?" The primary circuit has one or more LC components driven by an oscillating power source. The fact that you, Ex, do not believe that a step function does not count does not mean that it does not count. It means that YOU reckon it doesn't count. Consider the analogy of the child on a playground swing being pushed by someone at precisely the right time. Whether the person pushing hits the seat with a hammer or alternatively applies a sinusoidal type force (at the right time) makes no difference in principle. OU does not NEED resonance, but running such a circuit off resonance is like trying to do speed trials on a bicycle with one of the brakes half jammed "on".

Paul-R	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #219 on: 2013-04-03, 17:21:46 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2013-04-03, 00:35:46 Right, but not in his calorimetry test IIRC -- and that to me was his "best method". I'm leading up to a calorimetric test... Naudin tests his kettle for efficiency and gets 72%. The overall efficiency is 96%. (Test #3). But this is with only one output BPC, i.e. not even with one either side of the main primary coil. I am working towards getting four BPC secondaries, two either side of the main primary coil.

Grumpy	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #220 on: 2013-04-03, 17:29:23 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	My point is that radio recievers DO NOT load the transmitter, and you will be hard-pressed to transmit significant power with a radio transmitter. Quote from: tinman on 2013-04-03, 15:02:13 And your point is? Quote from: Grumpy on 2013-04-03, 14:45:21 A radio is not a power line. Quote from: tinman on 2013-04-03, 13:47:19 Well radio wouldnt work to well without resonance.This is one good example where power is drawn from a resonant circuit-radio.It is also how they tell how many people(a near figure)are tuned into there radio station-by the amount of power being drawn from that resonant system. Quote from wikipedia: The transmitter sends the modulated electrical energy to a tuned resonant antenna; this structure converts the rapidly changing alternating current into an electromagnetic wave that can move through free space. So the more people that are tuned into that radio station,the more power is drawn from that resonant transmiter.From this power draw,they can take a guess as to how many people are tuned in.

PhysicsProf	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #221 on: 2013-04-03, 17:45:54 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	Quote from: Paul-R on 2013-04-03, 17:21:46 Naudin tests his kettle for efficiency and gets 72%. The overall efficiency is 96%. (Test #3). But this is with only one output BPC, i.e. not even with one either side of the main primary coil. I am working towards getting four BPC secondaries, two either side of the main primary coil. I look forward to your results! So you pull the primary coil out -- do you take the fan out of the original device? How do you propose to measure the output power? calorimetry? Once thing that occurs to me is that with the coil outside, one can employ his own external fan for cooling -- not counted in the Pinput measurement (plugged in separately).

exnihiloest	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #222 on: 2013-04-03, 18:03:03 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: tinman on 2013-04-03, 13:47:19 ... Quote from wikipedia: The transmitter sends the modulated electrical energy to a tuned resonant antenna; this structure converts the rapidly changing alternating current into an electromagnetic wave that can move through free space. I agree. Quote So the more people that are tuned into that radio station,the more power is drawn from that resonant transmiter.From this power draw,they can take a guess as to how many people are tuned in. Misconception. Once the wave is radiated and constitutes a plane wave, i.e. at a distance on the order of the wavelength, it is no more linked to the transmitter. It carries away the transmitter energy. It is autonomous. The fact that a listener is tuned to the radio at a distance of some wavelengths, doesn't change anything from the viewpoint of the transmitter: the energy can be intercepted by a listener, absorbed by the environment or radiated towards the deep space, what happens elsewhere is unknown from the transmitter that has already lost this energy. This is very different from the "quasistationary state" which is the case of coupled circuits in near field (<1 wavelength). The first case is like throwing a ball far away. End of the case. The second case is like making periodically bounce the ball, and if it doesn't come back, or with less energy, you know that energy has been taken on the other side of the boucing process. Quote from: Grumpy on 2013-04-03, 17:29:23 My point is that radio recievers DO NOT load the transmitter, and you will be hard-pressed to transmit significant power with a radio transmitter. Agreed 100%. The antenna is an adapter for loading efficiently the free space impedance, by matching it to the output impedance of the transmitter. A well tuned antenna is viewed from the transmitter as a pure resistance, it's not distinguishable from a resistance.

Paul-R	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #223 on: 2013-04-03, 21:03:42 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2013-04-03, 17:45:54 I look forward to your results! So you pull the primary coil out -- do you take the fan out of the original device? How do you propose to measure the output power? calorimetry? Once thing that occurs to me is that with the coil outside, one can employ his own external fan for cooling -- not counted in the Pinput measurement (plugged in separately). With no saucepan boiling away on top of it, I wouldn't be surprised if the fan isn't really necessary. It may even be some sort of Health & Safety nonsense. I'll watch the temperature carefully and be ready with a big office fan just in case. Calorimetry all the way for me. Its just so easy. I can't be believing in areas under scope curves and mathematical confections. My problem is winding the coils. I haven't perfected the technique of using MOT primary enamelled copper wire. I am a bit concerned that someone once said that the number of turns on the primary should be the same as the number on the secondary. As it is, I should get more than double, and this seems to be a good idea. I am keen to get this under way before Maplins special offer (see earlier post) is discontinued in case I trash the cooker.

muDped	Re: Naudin's Gegene « Reply #224 on: 2013-04-03, 21:42:51 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	Quote from: Paul-R I am a bit concerned that someone once said that the number of turns on the primary should be the same as the number on the secondary. As it is, I should get more than double, and this seems to be a good idea. Your concerns are pertinent. For best power transfer and efficiency the number of turns in the secondary coil may make some difference. The Control Circuit in the Induction Cooker is able to compensate for certain changes in loading so the turns ratio may not be as critical as in ordinary transformers. --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

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