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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > Solid-State Generators > MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection
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Author Topic: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection  (Read 68296 times)
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img  Farmhand
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #50 on: 2012-11-13, 09:37:10 »
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Groundloop's drawing looks to me like how it would be except the 1 Farad capacitor's negative is grounded to the PWM ground, in the drawing from Verpies above (previous page), the red ? ? ? should be a ground symbol.
The Voltmeter across the load is on the AC setting as well.

I think he would get a better result if he ran the current through the LED directly back to the 1 Farad capacitor positive.
Maybe with a choke bypass around the LED or something. It would seem it must be running from the 1 Farad capacitor and he is momentarily topping it up once or twice.
Knowing the actual load power and the starting voltage of the 1 Farad capacitor would tell if that is possible by run time.

I would run the LED as I said or how he has it then use a smoothing capacitor after the diode (maybe a FWBR) and use a DC volt meter along with the Current meter to determine the load power.
Then measure the starting voltage of the 1 Farad capacitor and determine the potential energy there. Then run it and see what happens.

Some of the power consumed by the PWM needs to be considered as input if it is powered by anything other than the 1 Farad capacitor.. Being such a small amount the easiest way would be to consider all the energy consumed by the PWM as input.

Cheers

P.S. if the system is truly self running the 1 Farad capacitor should increase in charge or stay the same while running the load,
Mr Clean shows the 1 Farad capacitor Negative connected to the circuit ground in my opinion..

..

Just to clarify my position, I don't think Mr Clean is intentionally trying to deceive anyone, I don't think it matters if Mr Clean is purposely trying pull a fast one or not, what matters is what the circuit did or is doing or did not or is not doing.

..
   
img  Groundloop
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #51 on: 2012-11-13, 09:57:00 »
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Quote from: Farmhand on 2012-11-13, 09:37:10
Groundloop's drawing looks to me like how it would be except the 1 Farad capacitor's negative is grounded to the PWM ground, in the drawing from Verpies above, the red ? ? ? should be a ground symbol.
The Voltmeter across the load is on the AC setting as well.

I think he would get a better result if he ran the current through the LED directly back to the 1 Farad capacitor positive.
Maybe with a choke bypass around the LED or something. It would seem it must be running from the 1 Farad capacitor and he is momentarily topping it up once or twice.
Knowing the actual load power and the starting voltage of the 1 Farad capacitor would tell if that is possible by run time.

I would run the LED as I said or how he has it then use a smoothing capacitor after the diode (maybe a FWBR) and use a DC volt meter along with the Current meter to determine the load power.
Then measure the starting voltage of the 1 Farad capacitor and determine the potential energy there. Then run it and see what happens.

Some of the power consumed by the PWM needs to be considered as input.

Cheers

P.S. if the system is truly self running the 1 Farad capacitor should increase in charge or stay the same while running the load,
Mr Clean shows the 1 Farad capacitor Negative connected to the circuit ground in my opinion..

..

Farmhand,

He clearly states in the video that the capacitor negative is not connected. The 12 Volt battery is also not connected.



That leaves us with the 9 Volt battery. I think there is a current path from the 9 Volt battery through the BFY51 transistor
base to collector. This current is small. The maximal current that the BFY51 can draw is: 8,4 / 100 = 84mA. The BFY51
has a typical hFE of 123 so the maximal base current will be 0,68mA. The maximum current feed from the 9 Volt
battery to the base of the BFY51 is 3,91mA. That leaves us with 3,23mA through the base collector of the BFY51.
Now, this current is lower than that because of the oscillator duty cycle. Let us assume 50% duty cycle. The
maximal current to the switching circuit will then be 1,6mA. So the 9 Volt battery is providing 8,4 Volt @ 1,6mA
to the switching circuit. Is this enough to light the 3 Watt LED lamp to the brightness shown in the video?

GL.
« Last Edit: 2012-11-13, 13:17:44 by Groundloop »
   
img  Farrah Day
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #52 on: 2012-11-13, 11:58:05 »
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That looks more like it GL!
   
img  verpies
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #53 on: 2012-11-13, 12:10:48 »

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Quote from: Farrah Day on 2012-11-13, 08:21:22
There now appears to be two 12 Volt sources in Verpies latest schematic - surely this is not correct!
No, it does not appear to be so. You just don't know how to read schematic diagrams. An up-arrow is merely a connection to the upper supply-rail.
The power sources for the +12V and +9V rails are not defined on my schematic diagram, because Mr. Clean has not defined them.
   
img  verpies
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #54 on: 2012-11-13, 13:08:37 »

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Quote from: Groundloop link=topic=1566.msg26478#msg26478 date=135280062On this0
That leaves us with the 9 Volt battery. I think there is a current path from the 9 Volt battery through the BFY51 transistor
base to collector. This current is small. The maximal current that the BFY51 can draw is: 8,4 / 100 = 84mA. The BFY51
has a typical hFE of 123 so the maximal base current will be 0,68mA. The maximum current feed from the 9 Volt
battery to the base of the BFY51 is 3,91mA. That leaves us with 3,23mA through the base collector of the BFY51.
Now, this current is lower than that because of the oscillator duty cycle. Let us assume 50% duty cycle. The
maximal current to the switching circuit will then be 1,6mA. So the 9 Volt battery is providing 8,4 Volt @ 1,6mA
to the switching circuit.
Mr. Clean has not admitted to the separate 9V battery powering the PWM oscillator circuit however a 9V battery is visible on his 39E video but this is not the video of the self-runner.

Also, the value of R5 was my interpretation and has not been confirmed by the author.
Also, the position of R7 on your schematic diagram is inconsistent with with this drawing from the author.
Finally, the author has not confirmed whether the +12V supply rail (e.g. collector of Q1) is connected to the positive terminal of C7.
   
img  Groundloop
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #55 on: 2012-11-13, 13:24:09 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2012-11-13, 13:08:37
Mr. Clean has not admitted to the separate 9V battery powering the PWM oscillator circuit however a 9V battery is visible on his 39E video but this is not the video of the self-runner.

Also, the value of R5 was my interpretation and has not been confirmed by the author.
Also, the position of R7 on your schematic diagram is inconsistent with with this drawing from the author.
Finally, the author has not confirmed whether the +12V supply rail is connected to the positive terminal of C7.

Thanks for the update.

GL.
   
img  poynt99
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #56 on: 2012-11-13, 13:45:11 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Thanks GL and verpies.

Good work!

I'm not sure we'll be able to go any further with the diagram with what we have to go on, so let's hope Kurt will at least comment on your drawings.


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  Groundloop
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #57 on: 2012-11-13, 13:53:42 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-11-13, 13:45:11
Thanks GL and verpies.

Good work!

I'm not sure we'll be able to go any further with the diagram with what we have to go on, so let's hope Kurt will at least comment on your drawings.

.99,

I agree, Mr. Clean should provide more information about his setup. IF, he is using a 9 Volt battery on the oscillator part,
then it is STILL a mystery how he got all that light in the 3 Watt LED lamp with only a very small input from the battery.
Also, the variation in the voltage over the load is also a mystery IF the 1 Farad capacitor was disconnected.

GL.
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #58 on: 2012-11-13, 14:01:55 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-11-13, 08:01:38
This points are answered from decades. For the accumulation, see electronics courses, according to the schematic the input alone is not enough, and ask those who have an experience in radio, they will tell you, from a usable energy viewpoint, the negligible order of magnitude of the ambient field that you can be expecting for, except when you are very near a transmitter antenna.



The point of the antenna is just an example.  If the circuit get energy from radio waves, I agree it is not enough even if you amplify it by focusing the beams.  You can charge a capacitor using waves energy, but you can do it with static charge like a Leyden jar.  Again, by no mean I say the circuit is getting static electricity.  I just like to be prepared for all possible explanations while waiting for the correct schematic.  Well, schematic or not... lol  
   
img  Farrah Day
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #59 on: 2012-11-13, 14:13:28 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2012-11-13, 12:10:48
No, it does not appear to be so. You just don't know how to read schematic diagrams. An up-arrow is merely a connection to the upper supply-rail.
The power sources for the +12V and +9V rails are not defined on my schematic diagram, because Mr. Clean has not defined them.

Well actually, it did appear so to me, that's why I said that, but you are correct in that I did not know how to read the schematic, so point taken verpies - please excuse my confounded ignorance in this matter!  :)
   
img  ion
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #60 on: 2012-11-13, 14:15:58 »
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It's turtles all the way down
From Farmhand:

Quote
Mr Clean shows the 1 Farad capacitor Negative connected to the circuit ground in my opinion

I believe this is correct, according to the hand drawn schematic from Kurt.

Quote
P.S. if the system is truly self running the 1 Farad capacitor should increase in charge or stay the same while running the load,

This is partially correct, but even if the system is not self running, and the oscillator is starved for current and voltage, the 1F capacitor voltage will be seen to rise and continually power the circuit....for a while until all soakage is bled out.

To get the effect again, Mr. Clean will have to connect the battery to the 1F capacitor for a long time to get original conditions of dielectric absorption before disconnecting.

This has all been stated in my earlier posts and can be demonstrated on the bench with even simpler circuitry.

72 Joules is a lot of energy. Discharge a 1F capacitor that has been fully charged for an hour or more. Now watch the voltage climb back, enough to light even a small incandescent lamp for a few seconds. How much easier it is to light a high intensity white led at much lower power for a much longer time. Note that the led's are not being driven to full 3 watts, but as Kurt says on his drawing are "dimly lit".

If the 1F comes back to 20 % of it's initially charged value, it can supply over3 Joules of energy, possibly enough to power the circuitry in a starved mode.

But if Kurt has not discharged the 1F fully, but has allowed the normal stored energy of 72 Joules to bleed down to the "sweet spot" this scenario is even more realistic.

In my opinion there is no free energy here, just a lack of understanding of large electrolytic capacitors and a jumping to conclusion by the builder.




---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Farmhand
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #61 on: 2012-11-13, 15:10:45 »
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Look's like an interesting setup, I hope he keeps experimenting with it, maybe take his time, tidy up the wiring so he can make a few changes ect.
Maybe time the setup's run time and test the dielectric absorption thingy out and such things, would be interesting.

Cheers
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #62 on: 2012-11-13, 16:15:08 »
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Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012-11-13, 14:01:55
...I just like to be prepared for all possible explanations while waiting for the correct schematic.
...

But why start by the most extravagant explanations?
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #63 on: 2012-11-13, 18:49:39 »
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Over at EF, MrClean is saying that he is having difficulty replicating the effect. 
LaserSaber states, citing the OUR forum:

 
Quote
LaserSaber
        
Hi Mr.Clean,

Is the emitter on the 2N3055 connected to the same negative line as the 12V 1F cap?

Could it not be that something like ION over at overunityresearch.com pointed out:

Quote:
This is partially correct, but even if the system is not self running, and the oscillator is starved for current and voltage, the 1F capacitor voltage will be seen to rise and continually power the circuit....for a while until all soakage is bled out.

To get the effect again, Mr. Clean will have to connect the battery to the 1F capacitor for a long time to get original conditions of dielectric absorption before disconnecting.
Lasersaber continues: 
Quote
I used to be a member over on overunityresearch.com but my user name expired and they have made it a "by invitation" only kind of place. Anyway I think ION is pointing out something that you may want to try. Charge that Cap for a few hours. Discharge it for a few seconds and then connect up as before and see if you get the effect you first noticed.

I can say that I have seen dielectric absorption effects do some pretty strange things while experimenting with my JR no battery circuit. It might be worth checking out. If I am misunderstanding the Caps connection points forget everything I am saying.

Interesting.
I have a lot of respect for LaserSaber's ability to build things -- and I recommend that OUR management INVITE LaserSaber to become a member here once again... 
   
img  poynt99
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #64 on: 2012-11-14, 00:15:17 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Sure,

Have lasersaber send me an email, and I will register him again.

I guess he went 6 months without logging in here, and that's why it automatically expired.


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  poynt99
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #65 on: 2012-11-14, 00:17:38 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Very astute of you ION.

Good points.

There are a few things that need checking in regards to the effect, and the dielectric absorption is certainly one of them.


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  ion
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #66 on: 2012-11-14, 00:24:02 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-11-14, 00:17:38
Very astute of you ION.

Good points.

There are a few things that need checking in regards to the effect, and the dielectric absorption is certainly one of them.

Thanks Poynt, but it is only my opinion, as there is always the possibility something more unusual is happening.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  poynt99
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #67 on: 2012-11-14, 00:33:10 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
It's strange; Kurt has been asked several times if he has a 9V battery supplying the PWM circuit, but he has yet to give a simple clear answer.  :(

Quote
ok i thought it was clear from the videos past, here is the schematic, the signal gen running the base cannot power the system...
DIY Homemade Signal Generator with Pulse Width Modulation - RMCybernetics


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #68 on: 2012-11-14, 07:48:46 »
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Quote from: ION on 2012-11-14, 00:24:02
Thanks Poynt, but it is only my opinion, as there is always the possibility something more unusual is happening.

Doubtful. The Okkham's razor is always right.

Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-11-14, 00:33:10
It's strange; Kurt has been asked several times if he has a 9V battery supplying the PWM circuit, but he has yet to give a simple clear answer.  :(

When we face a lack of facts, this kind of reaction is very instructive to base an opinion. It's not strange if we consider that Kurt is among the many people either unskilled or cheater, who flood our domain for years with reckless delusions or real falsifications.
   
img  Paul-R
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #69 on: 2012-11-15, 15:43:45 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-11-14, 07:48:46
Doubtful. The Okkham's razor is always right.


Not always. Complex solutions do work. See the Apollo prgramme.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #70 on: 2012-11-20, 22:53:35 »
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MrClean is back with a fairly strong claim today:

Quote
here is what im confidently calling, overunity with the BiToroid, inspired by the people who originally disputed the output readings
Now with these RMS readings i am further convinced of the potential in this system

40 Don Smith Device Project: BiToroid SineWave Testing, Confirming RMS in/out - YouTube

From the EF forum.
   
img  BEP
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #71 on: 2012-11-21, 00:34:59 »
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RMS Watts?

I hope not  ???

EF is blocked from here or I would look for myself.
   
img  poynt99
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #72 on: 2012-11-21, 00:59:45 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Oh boy.  C.C


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  BEP
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #73 on: 2012-11-21, 02:31:00 »
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Just as we feared  :D

from Mr. C on EF:
Quote
right on man and thanks, but you must be assuming im using vrms, here all measurements were taken with very precise WRMS@32ohms
Vrms,Irms,power factor, etc, all accounted for (smiley)

Excitement can be a great thing but gravity hurts. The higher he flies the harder he'll fall.

Maybe someone should invent Watthours-RMS  ;D
   
img  BEP
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #74 on: 2012-11-21, 02:51:12 »
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Sorry PhysicsProf but Poynt provided an excellent work on Watts RMS or RMS Watts quite some time ago.

Whenever I see someone using the term in relation to measurement results I feel a sudden loss of air pressure as their credibility falls away like the results of the flushing action in a fast moving jet liner at 40,000 ft.

<Wordy> Hmmm.... too much coding today  :-[
   
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