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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > Solid-State Generators > MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection
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Author Topic: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection  (Read 68279 times)
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img  PhysicsProf
MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « on: 2012-11-10, 04:45:53 »
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 I'm particularly interested in comments that might lead to a replication, OR an understanding of where the power is coming from.  One possibility -- power from the signal generator. 

Thanks to Chet for the "heads up" on this one!

MrClean post 9 Nov at EF:  http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4864-donald-smith-devices-too-good-true-258.html#post213894
Quote
holy crap you guys and gals!!

OMG IVE NEVER BEEN SO PUMPED, this is really wierd, but i was playing around with single pulse-to-start direct connection to itself, and noticed the system began to oscillate when i did a certain routine of steps, then decided to remove caps where i had the battery... along with the positive.... and something magical happened....

... the light kept going...

and when i thought it was going to stop, it kept coming back


39F Don Smith Device Project: BITOROID IN SELF-LOOP, WITH LOAD, NO BATTERY NO CAP - YouTube

Video is cryptic but intriguing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzE-p0GJb_Q  

I captured a screen shot, showing the Bitoroid (attachment).

A clean schematic is still awaited from MRClean, but Verpies kindly provided a "rough draft" (attachment 2)

The "bi-toroid" is intriguing... reminds me of Thane-Heins...
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #1 on: 2012-11-10, 10:43:23 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012-11-10, 04:45:53
I'm particularly interested in comments that might lead to a replication, OR an understanding of where the power is coming from.  One possibility -- power from the signal generator.

Power drawn from the signal generator is a frequent mistake in free energy claims, especially when FET are used due to the high capacitances between the gate and the source, and also between the gate and the drain. But if the shematic corresponds really to the "rough draft", then we can discard this bias: it is doubtful that the base current of a NPN cascaded with another one whose the emitter is ground connected, could release a significant power at the collector of this second stage.

Quote
Thanks to Chet for the "heads up" on this one!

MrClean post 9 Nov at EF:  http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4864-donald-smith-devices-too-good-true-258.html#post213894
Video is cryptic but intriguing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzE-p0GJb_Q  

I captured a screen shot, showing the Bitoroid (attachment).

A clean schematic is still awaited from MRClean, but Verpies kindly provided a "rough draft" (attachment 2)

The "bi-toroid" is intriguing... reminds me of Thane-Heins...


We don't see a clearly isolated setup in the video, and there is a battery. In these conditions, it is easy to make a fake.
   
img  poynt99
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #2 on: 2012-11-10, 13:41:34 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
The bottom line is; is his function generator powered from an external source?

If it is, then the circuit is receiving power from the function generator (assuming it is connected), via the b-e junction of Q1, and the b-c junction of Q2.


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #3 on: 2012-11-10, 14:13:35 »
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@poynt99

The circuit is receiving the Q1 base current which controls the Q1 emitter current and both add to form the base current of Q2 which goes to the ground through the base/emitter junction of Q2. Therefore the system receives an external power but this power can't be accounted for the output power. So if it was not a fake, the mystery would remain.
   
img  poynt99
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #4 on: 2012-11-10, 14:37:49 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
The +V supply is disconnected, so:

Base-Emitter junction of Q1-->Base-Collector junction of Q2 (is not reverse-biased like it normally would be with a positive voltage at the collector).

So the FG output is easily driving the coils to some degree.


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  poynt99
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #5 on: 2012-11-10, 15:02:29 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Kurt said that his 9V FG supply is "isolated". It is not.

If he wants to know for sure that the device is self-oscillating and powering itself, he needs to remove the 9V supply from his function generator.

See the attached for the current path.


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #6 on: 2012-11-10, 15:49:52 »
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Hmmm...  why is that +9V connection you refer to there, poynt?  and where does the current flow to ground?

1. Post by MrClean = Kurt  
Quote
Hi everyone thankyou, but i just hope to live up to the expectations now

one thing i know for sure, anytime i have ever taken the positive off the battery, the system totally stops, and here with this unique setup, it kept going, so im optimistic.

it is very hard to replicate the effect, but im trying to systematize the process, there is a VERY fine setting on signal gen, and to tell you the truth im having difficulty replicating it, but bottom line is its all there, just have to understand it.

i still am trying to figure out why it would rise up and down, then always back up tho if i manipulated a few small, seemingly insignificant things, but made it come back for whatever the reason.

even the last radiant circuit i was using with the 2 transistors couldnt keep itself going like this,

anyway in trying to figure out any possibilities i thought maybe its the 9 volt in the signal gen driving the base of transistor..... but its not, the signal gen is isolated from the "supply" current, so im still stumped on what was making the meter rise as the bulb was lit

Also, verpies posts a revised schematic and Kurt replies it is "very close" --
« Last Edit: 2012-11-10, 16:16:35 by PhysicsProf »
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #7 on: 2012-11-10, 15:53:43 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-11-10, 15:02:29
...
See the attached for the current path.

A current can flow only in a closed circuit. What is your loop?
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #8 on: 2012-11-10, 16:18:16 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-11-10, 15:53:43
A current can flow only in a closed circuit. What is your loop?



I agree -- fun to see you on the "protagonist" side, ex.
   
img  Farrah Day
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #9 on: 2012-11-10, 16:32:34 »
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Curious, where are the LEDs (load) in the above schematics? 

Isn't this just a more complicated version of an AV plug?
   
img  poynt99
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #10 on: 2012-11-10, 17:01:27 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012-11-10, 15:49:52
Hmmm...  why is that +9V connection you refer to there, poynt?
It's there because as far as we know, that is the correct schematic. He is obviously using a separate supply for the 9V, as shown.

Quote
and where does the current flow to ground?
The circuit has two resonant circuits within it. All it takes to ring those bells are some transients. Those are provided by the FG through the path shown. The path to ground is through C5, R7, D1/Q2 (junction capacitance). We need confirmation of the values for C5, R3 and R7.



---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #11 on: 2012-11-10, 21:56:53 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-11-10, 17:01:27
...
The circuit has two resonant circuits within it. All it takes to ring those bells are some transients. Those are provided by the FG through the path shown. The path to ground is through C5, R7, D1/Q2 (junction capacitance). We need confirmation of the values for C5, R3 and R7.

You might quantify the amount of the input power that could go up from the base to the collector of a 2N3055 which has an emitter grounded...
Not realistic.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #12 on: 2012-11-10, 22:00:37 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012-11-10, 16:18:16
I agree -- fun to see you on the "protagonist" side, ex.

I'm still on the same side, this one of the more objective analysis that I can.
   
img  poynt99
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #13 on: 2012-11-11, 00:16:21 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-11-10, 21:56:53
You might quantify the amount of the input power that could go up from the base to the collector of a 2N3055 which has an emitter grounded...
Not realistic.
What kind of lights are his load? How much current is required to run his load?
Are the resistor and cap values shown in the schematic correct? Is the schematic correct?

When I have these answers, you will have yours.


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  Farmhand
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #14 on: 2012-11-11, 04:14:01 »
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Rough drawing is provided in this post. http://www.energeticforum.com/214094-post7793.html

Cheers
« Last Edit: 2012-11-11, 07:17:47 by Farmhand »
   
img  Farrah Day
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #15 on: 2012-11-11, 09:03:47 »
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Electronics is not really my thing, but won't tuned ccts keep resonating if they are kept topped up by an input signal (ie the sig. gen.)?  

Will not the initial power to the cct initiate resonance in the LC ccts via activating the transistors, and then the small signal from the sig. gen. be enough to maintain this - just as +ve feedback would in a tuned LC radio cct?

I'm just thinking that an AV plug employs only a one wire input, and JT's provide a similar output result, and that this cct may inadvertently be using a combination of both of these techniques.

And perhaps it's just me, but the schematics above don't look very much like his rough hand-drawn schematic at EF - he shows block Amplifiers in that, not individual transistor cct. And there is the inclusion of a 1 ohm resistor. But at least he shows where the load is across!
   
img  Farmhand
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #16 on: 2012-11-11, 09:42:42 »
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Hi Farrah, I can't comment a whole lot either I'm very much a learner. But I think the blocks with amp written in them are Ampere meters.
The schematic above "details" the signal generator section mainly I think, Mr Cleans hand drawn drawing shows mainly the wiring.

Mr Clean thought he had disconnected the 1 farad capacitor but it is still connected to the signal generator and maybe the coil supply.

I don't get where the extra wire from the negative of the 1 Farad capacitor is meant to normally connect. Would be interesting to find out.
Going by the post he may not be able to replicate the effect himself anyway.
A suspicious person might say the extra negative wire was just a "hey look I disconnected the capacitor wire", but I won't say that.  :)

Cheers
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #17 on: 2012-11-11, 11:42:24 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-11-11, 00:16:21
What kind of lights are his load? How much current is required to run his load?
Are the resistor and cap values shown in the schematic correct? Is the schematic correct?

When I have these answers, you will have yours.

You don't need that in first approximation. If you refer to the schematics, the input current is equal to the current at the emitter of the BFY51 divided by its gain β which is around 40 (Ie=Ic+Ib=β*Ib+Ib). The emitter resistance being 100Ω and the voltage 0/9v max, it follows that Ie<90mA => Ib<2.25mA, i.e. a maximum power around 10 mW (20mW/2 because the signal is squared). 10 mW is by far not enough to power the transistors and not enough to light a lamp.
   
img  Farrah Day
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #18 on: 2012-11-11, 13:02:52 »
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He says he is lighting a 3W LED load.

Quote from: Farmhand on 2012-11-11, 09:42:42
Hi Farrah, I can't comment a whole lot either I'm very much a learner. But I think the blocks with amp written in them are Ampere meters.
The schematic above "details" the signal generator section mainly I think, Mr Cleans hand drawn drawing shows mainly the wiring.

If they are ammeters in Mr Cleans drawing, then where are the transistors?  ???  It's all a bit messy really, seems to me that the neat schematic actually bears little resemblence to Mr Cleans actual cct. And until we know the actual set up I think it's pretty pointless trying to explain what might be happening.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #19 on: 2012-11-11, 14:41:11 »
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Quote from: Farrah Day on 2012-11-11, 13:02:52
...
And until we know the actual set up I think it's pretty pointless trying to explain what might be happening.

I agree. Note that the discussion was only about the possibility of an experimental bias due to the powering of the system by the signal generator, which for me is unlikely.
It looks more like a hoax, with hidden connections.
   
img  Farmhand
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #20 on: 2012-11-11, 14:52:02 »
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The box at the top right hand corner of the hand drawing is the signal generator/driver circuit, looks like.
And there is a AC voltmeter indicated after the diode, but it says "experimenting without diode as well".

I still do not get why the extra wire from the negative of the capacitor is there.
..
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #21 on: 2012-11-11, 15:11:53 »
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I agree that we can use junction capacitance to drive transformer.  I also agree that the energy of this, if true, is little for the situation.  What interesting is there was an accumulation in energy measured by the meter.  There maybe an amplification factor by circulating current in the LC. 


   
img  poynt99
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #22 on: 2012-11-11, 15:46:19 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
To analyse where the power may be coming from is not possible from that rough drawing of his. He again notes that his 9V is isolated, yet he does not show what that source of 9V power is. He needs to expand on the PWM block in the diagram.

He also claims that his big capacitor is not connected, when in the diagram it clearly shows that it is indeed connected.

 C.C


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  ion
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #23 on: 2012-11-11, 16:08:27 »
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It's turtles all the way down
A one farad capacitor can provide a certain bounce back after discharge from dielectric absorption. This can be many tens or hundreds of Joules, depending on the capacitor size, type, etc.

Dimly lighting high intensity white led's can be accomplished with microamperes of current.

I suggest that his oscillator may be operating in a dual mode at reduced voltage and current, which allows the dielectric absorption effect to recover.

When an oscillator is in current starved mode it may exhibit a noticeable hysteresis, turning fully off and drawing next to no current, then turning back on at some higher value of voltage or current.

During the "off time", the dipoles in the large capacitor release more charge to the foils until the oscillator turns on again.

If the oscillator is a micropower type, the voltage on the capacitor can actually be seen rising while the oscillator continues to run. This effect misleads many FE researchers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_absorption

http://electronicdesign.com/article/analog-and-mixed-signal/what-s-all-this-soakage-stuff-anyhow-6096
« Last Edit: 2012-11-12, 22:26:47 by ION »


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Peterae
Re: MrClean's claimed "self-looping" device with load, and no +Battery connection « Reply #24 on: 2012-11-11, 16:41:56 »

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Buy me some coffee
He says he used Cybernetics PWM board and although they have a number, he states 393 & 555 so here is the diagram :)

http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/homemade_signal_generator2.htm
   
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