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Author Topic: Police are using HHO and it seems to be working  (Read 18160 times)

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It would appear HHO really works
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUgUF5M3FTI&feature=related[/youtube]
   

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Mind you, if they used tax payers money to buy it and installed it to find they had been ripped off, i wonder if they would admit to the public their money was wasted on a scam LOL.

I see many people using this HHO but have found it hard to believe it really works, because the dam thing eats power, on this basis i have never followed that closely, so it's nice to find a positive response from using HHO.
   
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It won't last. They don't know what they are doing. They've read some hype and fell for it. The system they are using is one of the crudest and least efficient out there.  They must make a fortune from this scam, particularly if the cops are buying into it and it's making the news.

The cops haven't tested it thoroughly yet, though, have they - they're just plucking figures out of the air.  They'll soon get fed up of cleaning out the crud in that jar every week, and once they start having problems, they'll ditch it.  

Water4gas - it's a couple of coils of stainless steel wire that runs at around 2 amps and produces so little gas that it's laughable, yet you get some people claim that their miles per gallon doubles! Madness and bullshit. Water4gas even suggest using baking soda as the electrolyte.

http://plm.hubpages.com/hub/Does-Water4Gas-Work
http://makeyourownhydrogenfuelcell.com/

Try to get onto http://www.water4gas.com/

The cops have probably not considered that fitting those electrolysers will also invalidate the engine warranties.
   
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Can't believe they are only getting a 6-8 MPG increase.

These SUVs can be thirsty beasts. A Top Ten survey had them in the range 21 to 31 mpg
If they are in the middle, then their 25 mpg is going up to 32 mpg.

That is a 25% increase.

Not bad, but I am sure we could help them to be better rate.
   
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These SUVs can be thirsty beasts. A Top Ten survey had them in the range 21 to 31 mpg
If they are in the middle, then their 25 mpg is going up to 32 mpg.

That is a 25% increase.

Not bad, but I am sure we could help them to be better rate.


 ???

Ease their foot off the accelerator pedal is the only way - is this a knee-jerk post?  Did you not check out any of the links I posted?
   

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Water Injection is much easier to implement
and is far more productive/beneficial.

Solar Distillation will provide all the needed
water at little cost.

Easing the foot off the accelerator is always
good strategy and it works every time.


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I really don't think water injection will improve fuel economy - it's not a fuel.

The Water4Gas business was/is a major scam, and rather laughably, one of the things in their literature said that to get the maximum benefit from their units, you needed to alter your driving habits - if this was not done, you could not expect to see any results in fuel economy. That disclaimer really says it all.
   
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Did you not check out any of the links I posted?
Yes. I doubt the motives of some of those involved.
   

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Water for Fuel is not really my thing, i am surprised it is shown to be a fraud though, there were some pioneers in the early 1900's that had supposed working devices and patents, i thought these had been witnessed as working and the guy who successfully patented a system was later persecuted by the government another Ed grey story.
   
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There's a cart load of patented systems, most of which are not worth the paper they're printed on.  Having a patent for something doesn't necessarily mean that the thing will even work at all, let alone work as suggested.

It seems you can get almost anything patented without having to provide even the slightest proof that it works! The bottom line is, patents are not proof that something actually works - in fact in this respect patents mean diddly-squat!
   
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@FarrahDay
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I really don't think water injection will improve fuel economy - it's not a fuel.

The Water4Gas business was/is a major scam, and rather laughably, one of the things in their literature said that to get the maximum benefit from their units, you needed to alter your driving habits - if this was not done, you could not expect to see any results in fuel economy. That disclaimer really says it all.

Water is not a fuel but it can drastically improve mileage however you have to get past the simplistic notion of cause and effect. I built my first system about 30 years ago, I was 16, a VW sand rail (tube frame) with a 1600cc engine with dual port heads and I not only drastically increased the mileage but also the power. You see you cannot understand how I did this because you cannot think in an abstract sense past simple cause and effect and the easiest gains are simple. I shaved the heads to increase compression,then I pre-heated the fuel, then I advanced the timing way the hell into no man's land where the massive amount of pre-detonation (pinging) would normally destroy an engine in minutes.
The first problem is that we can approximate the combustion temperature by the color of the residue on the spark plugs and normally they should be a sandy brown color... mine were almost white so I added proportional water injection below the carburator. This has two effects, one it moderates the internal temperature so that the engine cannot ping at any degree of timing and two we can run a super lean mixture at high compression ratio's which is where maximum efficiency is found. Maximum power at high compression ratio's and maximum efficiency when the air/fuel ratio is on the very lean side. I know this because the amount of fuel used was very much lower and the greater power was tearing up my drive train and clutches, so much that I was shearing the pins between the clutch plate/flywheel and the crank shaft.
Have you ever heard a 1600cc VW engine pulling almost 6000 RPM and blowing blue flames 4 inches long out of it's 10" exhaust pipes (zoomy pipes)?, it is something to behold.

The water is not a fuel it is a moderator, it allows us to create the conditions for max power and efficiency by controlling the combustion process. Personally I think the mainsteam engineers are an embarrassment to the engineering community of which I am a part of, there is no real engineering in it only repetition. The fact is I did what they say cannot be done when I was 16 freaking years old with archaic technology, they are textbook hero's and I have little or no faith in there intelligence nor their abilities.

AC
« Last Edit: 2012-11-16, 20:31:59 by allcanadian »


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Excellent write-up AllCanadian!  You've covered
it well.

Water Injection has a long history and is made
use of today by commercial jet aircraft on takeoff
for increased thrust and power to get aloft smartly.

The military services have used it extensively too.



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Sounds like you had to spend a lot of time and money on modifications to that VW, AC - given the cost of fuel as it currently is, are you not still employing this tactic nowadays? 
« Last Edit: 2012-11-16, 22:54:37 by Farrah Day »
   
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@FarrahDay
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Sounds like you had to spend a lot of time and money on modifications to that VW, AC - given the cost of fuel as it currently is, are you not still employing this tactic nowadays? 


I didn't spend a great deal of money as I had little at that age and most of the money I had was from hauling hay bales all summer and other chores. As well we were on the farm and had piles of old machinery and parts and old vehicles to scavenge from. I miss those days, when a person was young and could let their imagination run wild and had the time to fabricate things from almost nothing but piles of junk, lol, I made wind generators, co-generators, go-carts, motorcycles, hovercraft, iceboats, power boats from plywood and a 5hp B&S etc... . Sometimes we don't know how good we had it until it is gone, sigh.... time is not on our side.
The problem with this conversion in this day and age is all the darn electronics which are designed to operate a certain way and when a parameter is changed the computer starts correcting in the wrong direction or shuts down. In the good old days things were easy and when something went wrong I knew how to fix it on the spot, all I needed was my tool box and there was a very good chance it could be made to work.


If you are interested I can go through the exact process and answer any questions you may have as this system and the HHO system are similar. In themselves I think HHO and water mean little as you say they are not a fuel and I agree because there is always an issue of energy state and conversion losses. However there is no rule saying we cannot use them to make something already present better. I used water injected as a fine mist to moderate the combustion temperature since the latent heat of vaporization is 2257KJ/Kg and if the internal temperature can be moderated initially then pre-detonation can be controlled. My thoughts were that the combustion temp must remain high to produce a high power to weight ratio however not high during the entire cycle. We add enough water to get past the pre-detonation stage yet not so much it can carry a great deal of heat in the form of steam out the exhaust pipe which has not performed real work. There is also another benefit if the EGT is monitored because an engine could quite literally be impossible to overheat at any power level, we should remember that damage is a result of a high "average temperature" which is not to say the beginning can be cool and the end very hot. I remember the fact that I could run that darn little engine hard all day long at high revs and I wanted it to blow up to determine it's limitations but I never could, heat may make it work but in the same light it is too much heat which will destroy it. In this respect water is the perfect fluid because it can absorb a huge amount of energy during it's phase change to steam and do so in a very short span of time.

Here is an analogy, we are in a closed room full of fuel/air then in the corner a spark is initiated, next we see a wall of flame advancing towards us in slow motion. However since the room is closed the pressure starts rising and a wall of pressure is also advancing ahead of the wall of flames. Next this pressure wave ahead of the wall of flame hits the corners and fires break out at that point due to the heat from the last wall of flame. There is also radiant heat and while the wall of flame is a ways away from us we can feel the heat just as we feel the heat from a fireplace without being in it. We now have individual fires confined by a wave of pressure which generate their own pressure waves due to expansion at which point the pressure and heat causes the area around the flames to instantly combust all at once. These confined explosions are pre-detonations which limit the compression ratio and the fuel/air mixture.

Now we are in the same room full of fuel/air but there is also more water vapor present. The fuel/air is ignited and our wall of flame advances however this time the flame is obscured because there is a white mist in front of it which is from the water vapor flashing into steam. This limits the radiant heat from the wall of flame we felt before acting like a blanket of steam around it and the pressure wave which caused the individual fires to pre-ignite in the corners also are covered in a blanket of steam which appears the moment a flame appears. The heat is still present and the pressure is still present however the energy absorbed by the water vapor in it's transition from water to steam has moderated the speed at which the reactions occur, it causes the fuel/air burn to act like a true burn even when the pressure and heat would normally cause it to explode all at once. It is like taking a single stick of dynamite and spreading it out over a very large area and while the total energy may be the same the speed at which the reactions occur is not because the surface area is larger.

I believe the electronics issues has negated mainstream use of this technology today however tomorrow is another issue. Vehicles are starting to use a technology we should have been using 50 years ago which is hybrid technology. A small super efficient engine running very lean at constant RPM to turn a generator which charges a battery bank or capacitors which carries the variable load of an electric motor, that is the future in my opinion.
AC


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Yes, I tend to agree that modern cars with all the electronics would be difficult to play with, but I also think that modern cars would see little improvement in fuel economy anyway. Modern engines are now already so much more fuel efficient than older ones because of fuel management systems - a role that water injection might have been to some extent performing in older engines.

It seems to me that water injection was primarily used to enhance performance of high compression engines in that it prevented pre-ignition.  The cooling effect of the water also allowed for leaner fuel mixtures without damaging the engine.

But perhaps there is something to be said for water entering the fuel/air mix of even standard ICEs.  I found this and found it an extremely interesting read:

http://www.dave-cushman.net/misc/mannject.html

Bit of an eye-opener actually!
« Last Edit: 2012-11-17, 14:13:45 by Farrah Day »
   
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Thanks Farrah , I like those old articles.
When I started I had never heard of water injection however for as long as I can remember I have always noticed the little things. All the little things which continually happen around us that most people seem oblivious to. One was the fact that I always got much better mileage when driving in the rain and it was not just some of the time but every time. As well I noticed the coolant temp dropped even when pulling steep grades in the mountains.

I simply put two and two together, water vapor must help combustion and moderate the internal temperatures. I found that a windshield washer pump pumping water though a metering valve then to a small carb jet mounted below the carb at the intake worked the best. In this way the water was atomized before it entered the air stream and the metering valve could be set to add more or less water outside the context of the vacuum present for greater control. Later a solenoid was added to ensure the water could not enter the intake until the engine was running which is a good safety measure.

AC


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So water basically modifies the combustion process, and engine efficiency can then be further enhanced by taking advantage of the water's cooling properties, by leaning out the fuel and adjusting the ignition timing.

I drive an old petrol Land Rover, and I too notice a difference in the way it drives on cold, misty mornings - always seems to run smoother. I think I always assumed it was the cold air allowing for a greater charge of fuel to reach the engine.  I might have have a rethink!

Makes you think that perhaps it is the water vapour from tiny inefficient electrolysers entering the engine that is of far more significance than the pathetic amount of hydrogen being produced. And, now I come to think about it, I remember a communication from William Rhodes a few years ago, in which he described drawing the air intake of his car through a maze of water saturated nappies.  The nappies were simply kept wet by a steady drip of water from a gallon container.  He said that he noticed a marked improvement in engine efficiency. Ties in well with what I read in that link.
   
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Makes you think that perhaps it is the water vapour from tiny inefficient electrolysers entering the engine that is of far more significance than the pathetic amount of hydrogen being produced. And, now I come to think about it, I remember a communication from William Rhodes a few years ago, in which he described drawing the air intake of his car through a maze of water saturated nappies.  The nappies were simply kept wet by a steady drip of water from a gallon container.  He said that he noticed a marked improvement in engine efficiency. Ties in well with what I read in that link.

There is a possibility many reactions are occuring, the water vapor from the electrolyzer may aid in combustion by moderating the internal temperatures and flame propagation which prevents pre-detonation which is basically like using high octane fuel. The higher the octane rating of the fuel the higher the compression before a fuel will detonate so water vapor could be considered as a lead free octane booster which prevents detonation. As well the article you posted is correct in that water vapor cleans all the internal components of hydrocarbon residue which also adds to the issue of detonation. I remember that on tear down of an engine the combustion chamber, valves, pistons and rings were always spotless and there was basically no carbon deposits of any kind anywhere. That is kind of funny when a person thinks about it, why would we pay an extra 20 cents per litre for high octane fuel containing a known poison (Lead) when we could achieve the same result using water?. I understand fuel in now lead free however I do not  imagine the replacement is much better environmentally.

Concerning the hydrogen content we know that it should increase the rate at which the fuel combusts however I think we have two reactions occuring here. One the hydrogen increases the burn rate of the hydrocarbon fuel present and two the water vapor moderates the burn rate which would seem to be a bit of a contradiction. It may be we have the best of both worlds under certain circumstances where we have a faster burning fuel because of the increased hydrogen content which will not detonate at high compression ratio's and/or temperatures because of the increased water content. This may be why the results vary from one application to another because I would think there would be a perfect hydrogen to water vapor ratio for any given application allowing a faster yet moderated burn.

You know I was quite content to have moved past this technology 30 years ago and I have very fond memories of tinkering away on a calm warm summers night, no worries, no rush, just happy to have the time to explore new things but now you have me thinking about it again. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not, lol.
AC


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Concerning the hydrogen content we know that it should increase the rate at which the fuel combusts however I think we have two reactions occuring here. One the hydrogen increases the burn rate of the hydrocarbon fuel present and two the water vapor moderates the burn rate which would seem to be a bit of a contradiction. It may be we have the best of both worlds under certain circumstances where we have a faster burning fuel because of the increased hydrogen content which will not detonate at high compression ratio's and/or temperatures because of the increased water content.

Makes sense, but what has to be factored in is the energy required to electrolyse the water in the first place. So although the hydrogen by itself may make very little difference, the water vapour going with it just might.

Regarding your clean engine parts, and old engineers trick used to be dripping water into the carb with a dropper with the engine warm and running, precisely to clean the carbon deposits off the valves and piston heads.

My old engines have the vacuum advance pipe from the carb to the distributor so adding water injection similar to that described in that link would be extremely easy to do.
   

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A few weeks ago i posted this article
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/exclusive-pioneering-scientists-turn-fresh-air-into-petrol-in-massive-boost-in-fight-against-energy-crisis-8217382.html

It's not earth shattering as they only produced 5 liters since august  C.C

but look at the process they have used

Carbon Dioxide + water = petrol

burn petrol to get carbon dioxide & water

Add more water to the Carbon Dioxide & water exhaust to close the loop, in other words it is already viable to run a petrol engine on water.

What if someone found a faster way to convert the Carbon Dioxide & water into petrol.

Seems not so far fetched or am i missing something.
   
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Carbon Dioxide + water = petrol
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What if someone found a faster way to convert the Carbon Dioxide & water into petrol.

Seems not so far fetched or am i missing something.

It does not seem so far fetched if we consider that the common tree may have had the intelligence to have figured this out a few million years ago, I am quite confident that given the time and resources our intelligence may even exceed that of the common tree in a few million years.

AC


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Good stuff.

They have the process, great, but for this to become viable the key factor is devising a method of effectively and efficiently requiring the CO2, otherwise this will be no different from any other energy intensive process - like electrolysis. Possibly a stepping stone to a better hydrocarbon fuel though.
   

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The use of Carbon Dioxide for Methyl Alcohol
(Methanol) synthesis is old technology which
is industrially important.

But allcanadian is correct - living plants do it
better than we humans are able to.  There are
many "vegetable oils" which can be directly used
as fuel in certain well designed diesel engines.

Volatile hydrocarbons such as gasoline can be
synthesized industrially rather easily from wood
and other vegetable matter but so long as oil
(petroleum) is abundant those competing
technologies will not be exploited.


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I can only see a way to increase the efficiency of an internal combustion engine, what i am saying is that by injecting water under the correct conditions when mixed with the exhaust of an ICE then it maybe possible to create a small amount of petrol fumes which could be recirculated, as far as i understand this is exactly what had been shown to work in a patent that was pulled in the early 1900's.
   
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