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Author Topic: Magnetic field from displacement currents and the TPU  (Read 42495 times)
Group: Guest
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I wondered what might happen if we stretched the darn thing out and wound it like a coil for electromagnets.

Many people believe that a line wound like a coil, would remain the same line, with the same phenomena of propagation. This is (almost) true only for coaxial lines due to the shield. But when you are using a bifilar line, each wire of each turn is capacitively coupled to the others. High frequency currents can pass through the coil as a block, and mix with those following the line. Consequently there will be also some imbalance of currents between the two parallel wires, and therefore inductive coupling between turns. And so we are left with surprising results due to our ignorance of the exact electrical parameters of the setup.
Many unskilled people will play with their coils, imagining fuzzy utopian theories to fill the holes of their ignorance facing a complex setup, instead of seriously studying and measuring. It's always more gratifying to think to be the possible great discoverer of new phenomena that the giants of physics or the electrical engineers would have not seen since Ampère, rather than to accept to be an ignorant who has to study what some others already know.

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Thank god Exn stepped in and defined the phenomena because it is a well know fact that once something is defined let alone a term, I say a term, to define it then we can just ignore it because all is known. As well Ion confirmed this fact by saying there is no mystery here and that was a great relief and as if a great euphoric calm swept over me.
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No mystery. It's like "The Hound of the Baskervilles" from Conan Doyle when you know the solution. The mystery has disappeared.
A mystery comes always from our ignorance.  The greater the ignorance, the greater the mysteries. The mysteries give fun. That's probably why so many people pamper their ignorance.  ;D

   
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDWF50fUoYY

When he adjust the light near top position, it dimmed.  Looks like he has reach two same node?  Then he slide the light down lengths greater.  I do not see the bulb dim again.  The more he slide down the brighter it gets.

His line is a quarter-wave line. A quarter wave line must be powered from a high voltage source while a half-wave line must be powered from a lower voltage but a stronger current, question of line impedance at the powered end.
You can correctly observe the nodes and anti-node if the lamp probe doesn't disturb the circuit. This implies that the lamp presents a negligible load to the circuit. It seems not to be the case here and so, there is also a question of impedance matching that may offset the maximum brightness/dim from the nodes.
When the guy connects a tube lamp to only one conductor of the line, power is drawn from one conductor to ground through the "capacity" effect of the operator. So we have a new circuit, this functioning is irrelevant relative to the line characteristics only.

This experiment is rather according to what is expected for a quarter-wave line, but it is not significant because too much crude, without measurements. We see one of the ignorants that I spoke of above, having fun with things that he doesn't understand.
  
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For sine and cosine, my point is deriving energy from the sine is one thing.  Deriving energy from its rate of change, the cosine, could be another thing?  

What energy are you talking about? There is energy in fields, there is energy in a load... Energy derives from the field amplitude, the voltage, the current...
If there is no load and there is a stationary wave along the line, energy has been used only to build the fields and then no energy is needed expect for compensating the losses.

   
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I don't see anything special about a hairpin circuit. The bars have nodes on them http://gbhsweb.glenbrook225.org/gbs/science/phys/class/waves/u10l4c.html

There is a difference of potential between a node and an anti-node or the opposing anti-nodes, with a hairpin circuit a node is in a position on one bar opposite to another node on the other bar, the anti-nodes are opposite and opposing so there is a greater (average) potential difference between two anti-nodes directly opposite from each other on the two bars than there is between an anti-node and a node, when a load is connected between any difference in potential current flows. Between two nodes is no potential difference. All normal stuff. The standing waves can be achieved weather the two bars are joined at the top or not I think.

Cheers
   
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It's turtles all the way down
I can fully understand AC having a spasm a while back (post #45) when ex and I talked about the hairpin circuit, and I remarked "no mystery here".

This is true at one level of understanding, at another level, it's all a mystery, even our existence. As Bibhas De has remarked "the foundation (of physics) is the frontier".

There are things that we absolutely do not know at this time. On top of that there is a body of measurement and experimentation that within said framework constitutes "knowns".

When I said "no mystery here" I was speaking from within that framework and body of knowledge. At another level it is all a great mystery, and a miracle of sorts.

ex makes many accurate statements when speaking from within the framework and body of knowledge we have regarding electromagnetics. He patiently and clearly explains "knowns". I applaud that.

Perhaps AC will someday grace us with his great discoveries rather than sarcasm as in post prior. We can only wish.

As Sgt. Friday would say "Just the facts ma'am".


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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His line is a quarter-wave line. A quarter wave line must be powered from a high voltage source while a half-wave line must be powered from a lower voltage but a stronger current, question of line impedance at the powered end.
You can correctly observe the nodes and anti-node if the lamp probe doesn't disturb the circuit. This implies that the lamp presents a negligible load to the circuit. It seems not to be the case here and so, there is also a question of impedance matching that may offset the maximum brightness/dim from the nodes.
When the guy connects a tube lamp to only one conductor of the line, power is drawn from one conductor to ground through the "capacity" effect of the operator. So we have a new circuit, this functioning is irrelevant relative to the line characteristics only.

This experiment is rather according to what is expected for a quarter-wave line, but it is not significant because too much crude, without measurements. We see one of the ignorants that I spoke of above, having fun with things that he doesn't understand.
 
What energy are you talking about? There is energy in fields, there is energy in a load... Energy derives from the field amplitude, the voltage, the current...
If there is no load and there is a stationary wave along the line, energy has been used only to build the fields and then no energy is needed expect for compensating the losses.



Exn, so let's say his set up is quarter wave.  The quarter wave in the middle picture below cause the light to dim and the quarter wave on the right cause the light to be bright?




I guess I vision two energy.  One is flowing inside the wire and one flow outside.  Energy outside is the field but can be represent by the Electric and magnetic field flowing in the wire.  Pretty much Voltage x Current.  If they are 90 degrees out of phase, then this is reactive power and represent the power flowing outside of the circuit as field.  And yes, energy is require to maintain the flow inside the wire. 



   
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I haven't tested it yet but as far as I can envision the hairpin circuit could be run in any resonant mode.
And/or maybe with several nodes and anti-nodes on each bar.

I may be wrong on that.

Cheers
   
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@Farmhand
Quote
I haven't tested it yet but as far as I can envision the hairpin circuit could be run in any resonant mode.
And/or maybe with several nodes and anti-nodes on each bar.

You would be correct, http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1898-11-17.htm  see fig 3. Here we can see the connections are in close proximity on one side of the circuit which is identical to the hairpin circuit.
This is interesting--- A Lecher line is a pair of parallel uninsulated wires or rods held a precise distance apart. The separation is not critical but should be a small fraction of the wavelength; it ranges from less than a centimeter to over 10 cm.

AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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I haven't tested it yet but as far as I can envision the hairpin circuit could be run in any resonant mode.
And/or maybe with several nodes and anti-nodes on each bar.

I may be wrong on that.

Cheers

It could be.  This is why we check the video observing him slide the light up and down the bars.  If there is several nodes, then we should see the light dim and bright and dim etc...  Overall, there is no evident that there are several nodes.   

I guess the argument is that current going through the lamps are normal conduction current between two different potentials.  My argument is that it is non-conduction current.  I have derived an experiment proposal that we can discuss to make our view clearer on weather the current is conduction or non conduction. 

The picture shows a normal LC circuit.  One leg is connected to ground with a sensing resistor R.  The circuit is charge up to high voltage and discharge through switch S.   Voltage wave form is monitor on capacitor C and resistance R.  There are 3 major possible solutions:

1/ There is no current flowing through resistor R.
2/  The current flow through resistor R is highest when voltage C is highest.
3/ The current flow through resistor R is highest when voltage C is zero.

Solution 2 would suggest a conduction current. 
Solution 3 would suggest a non conduction current. 

Any comment? 
   
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I didn't watch the entire video I admit but I thought I saw the lights go dim as he slid the terminals up in the beginning.
That would indicate a node in the dim area. Wouldn't it ? Yes I see that would be one.  :-[

Cheers
   
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" This mode of using the currents is entirely safe and particularly convenient, but it requires a very uniform working of the break b employed for charging and discharging the condenser."

What would happen if break is not uniform ? I vote for non conduction currents Tesla used. Most probable displacement currents, watch fig 4 plates t t'
   
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Exn, so let's say his set up is quarter wave.  The quarter wave in the middle picture below cause the light to dim and the quarter wave on the right cause the light to be bright?


His setup is a quarter wave with a closed end. The voltage node is at the top. The maximum voltage is at the bottom end. The line constitutes a high impedance for the generator.

The picture 2 is an open line. If it is a quarter-wave line, then the maximum voltage is at the top and the voltage node is at the bottom end. The line constitutes a low impedance for the generator.

The pictures are misleading, due to the use of the same coupling coils while the line length/wave length ratio is not specified. In practice, it couldn't be the same due to a considerable impedance difference.

In any case, the experimental results can be anything if the load is not negligible in comparison with the impedance between the generator and the load at the position of the load (for instance it's easy to understand that a low impedance load at mid distance on a half-wave line, transforms the first half-part of the line into a quarter-wave line with a closed end).

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I guess I vision two energy.  One is flowing inside the wire and one flow outside.  Energy outside is the field but can be represent by the Electric and magnetic field flowing in the wire.  Pretty much Voltage x Current.  If they are 90 degrees out of phase, then this is reactive power and represent the power flowing outside of the circuit as field.  

I agree. If there is no load, the energy is the integral of the energy density 1/2*ε0*E2+1/2*B2/µ0 over the volume occupied by the field. If the line doesn't radiate and there is no ohmic losses (= inifinite Q), the energy is constant, you would have needed energy only to build the field at the beginning, and then you wouldn't need energy to maintain it due to the resonant conditions of the line which mean a perpetual energy exchange between voltage/currents and fields, at the rate of the frequency.

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And yes, energy is require to maintain the flow inside the wire.  

So without further notice it's false. Energy is conserved. The need of energy implies that it goes somewhere. In the present case: heating the wire resistance and radiating EM waves (Q is not infinite). A resonant line is exactly like a LC circuit. The oscillations are damped due to the losses. You need energy only to fight the losses.

   
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" This mode of using the currents is entirely safe and particularly convenient, but it requires a very uniform working of the break b employed for charging and discharging the condenser."

What would happen if break is not uniform ? I vote for non conduction currents Tesla used. Most probable displacement currents, watch fig 4 plates t t'

If the break is not uniform the lights would probably flicker and there would be chance of low frequency shock.
I think the reason it can be safe to touch is because of the high frequency, over a certain frequency HV can be fairly safe and hard to even feel.

All the so called "cold electricity" demo's I've seen are high frequency I think. If not shocked by directly touching it why would putting it in water be so interesting ?
Still can get quite bad RF burns though from hot arcs I think. I would like to see a demonstration of "cold" electricity using less than 15 kHz.

I've noticed myself when playing with spark gapped Tesla coil HV arcs, if the spark gap stutters and the HF arc becomes LF sparks to my hand I suddenly get shocked.
I wouldn't touch a working set of stout bars unless the spark gap was reliable.

Cheers
« Last Edit: 2012-10-26, 18:05:15 by Farmhand »
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Gibbs,

If the voltage is not so high as to ionize the air, then there will be no current through R.


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Gibbs,

If the voltage is not so high as to ionize the air, then there will be no current through R.

Thanks Poynt,

I did a sim on this circuit.  There is no current flowing through the Resistor.  However, we see experiments show there is current flowing through just ground connection. 

   
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To understand free energy view, it is better to go back and look at our perspective on electricity and thermodynamics.

As far as I know, we seems to view electricity as a spring.  We charge up a capacitor is compressing the spring. 

Change in Internal energy (spring energy) = Work input + Work out

If there is no work out, then spring energy = input.  If we extract work by magnetic coupling, then the internal energy is less.  When the spring return to its initial state, the most energy we can recover is the internal energy of the spring.  Work doesn't flow from high to low or low to high.  There is no free energy. It's a heat engine. 

However, when we view electricity as a fluid may it be ideal gas.  Things are different.

Change in Internal energy = Work input + heat

The same scenario as the spring except when internal energy is return to its initial state, heat can flow from outside in thus recovery can be greater than stored internal energy.  Ideally, it could equals to work input.   Heat during compression can convert to work, heat flowing into the system can comes from anything ambient.  This is a heat pump.

My view of EM radiation is work due to heat when we compress charges.  It is not a result of momentum transfer when being collide. 


   
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...
My view of EM radiation is work due to heat when we compress charges.  It is not a result of momentum transfer when being collide. 

What is "heat" in your context? How is it operationnally related to the charges "compression"? What are you talking about?

   
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What is "heat" in your context? How is it operationnally related to the charges "compression"? What are you talking about?




Heat in this context is just a form of energy.  It is release or take in during compression/decompression.  I don't speculate if it is electrical, nuclear, magnetic monopole, zipons, Higgs, ZPE, dark matter, lead in, lead out, virtual particals, aether, vortexes... but don't let me stop you from having fun.  lol



   
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