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Author Topic: Hot Coil Electromagnet  (Read 80220 times)
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Rapid test with my toaster today. The heating wire is not wound but in straight lines. I don't know which alloy it is made of.
The oscilloscope strobe was connected to a pick-up coil put near one of the wire line.

No spikes but the trace shape is not really a sine. There are flat steps each side of the zero crossing and at some other places.

   
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Rapid test with my toaster today. The heating wire is not wound but in straight lines. I don't know which alloy it is made of.
The oscilloscope strobe was connected to a pick-up coil put near one of the wire line.

No spikes but the trace shape is not really a sine. There are flat steps each side of the zero crossing and at some other places.

What type of pickup coil did you use? Also, depending on how the toaster elements are wound ( WW vs coiled) you may find the field cancels. It is hard to get at toaster elements with a probe.

Recently I have been researching building a low cost wide band mag probe. Attached is a good paper on the subject, but I'm looking for something simpler.

Some folks use a cheap telephone audio pickup coil (1 mV per 20 mGauss) shown here: http://www.lessemf.com/kits.html
« Last Edit: 2012-08-12, 15:25:53 by ION »


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I am tempted to knock up a circuit i built some years ago.
2 back to back ugn3503 hall sensors each one feeding inverting and non inverting leg of an op amp, add gain, for fun i added a vco and it worked as an audible compass and was quiet sensitive ;)

PS i have on order 4 different sizes of Nichrome now.
   
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I am tempted to knock up a circuit i built some years ago.
2 back to back ugn3503 hall sensors each one feeding inverting and non inverting leg of an op amp, add gain, for fun i added a vco and it worked as an audible compass and was quiet sensitive ;)

PS i have on order 4 different sizes of Nichrome now.

Yes, I've considered linear Hall effect sensors, and should have a few of those in the bin.

Size of the wire may not be important, composition definitely is.

Another simple mag probe paper attached:


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What type of pickup coil did you use?

I don't know exactly. It was the coil of an excellent ferrite transformer used for audio signals in professional electronic cards from phone switching centers, dating from the analog time. I have plenty of these. I had removed the ferrite. Length and mean diameter are both about 1.5 cm.

Quote
Also, depending on how the toaster elements are wound ( WW vs coiled) you may find the field cancels. It is hard to get at toaster elements with a probe.

I agree. I had to set the oscilloscope for 2mV, with probe 1x. The signal was around 8 mV when the coil was positionned inside the toaster, near the wire.

Quote
Recently I have been researching building a low cost wide band mag probe. Attached is a good paper on the subject, but I'm looking for something simpler.

Some folks use a cheap telephone audio pickup coil (1 mV per 20 mGauss) shown here: http://www.lessemf.com/kits.html

My coil is not optimized for 50 hz (the mains here), unlike this at your link, but it should show the spikes if they existed. I presume that my wire is not of the right alloy.

   
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@Ion
You have to separate the fields in order to understand exactly what is going on, Electromagnetic = Electric + Magnetic. I use a dual polarity single analog output hall effect sensor to measure only the magnet fields and a DIY dual polarity single analog output electrometer to measure only the electric fields. If you do this it won't take very long to understand what you have been missing as a tickler coil is basically like groping around in the dark, it is archaic.

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omg i just looked up what they use for wirewound resistors and the wiki says nichrome  O0 not sure what grade yet though.
   
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New test with a 2 KW heater. I have disconnected the fan that induced a signal in the coil. But now my tests are short otherwise the breaker interrupts the current.

There are spikes. The signal was weak and noisy, weaker than with the toaster. The heating wire is obviously wound in order to minimize the magnetic field.

So I have wedged a narrow ferrite rod in a curl of the heater wire and the other end inside the coil. Now the signal is strong, around 20 mV.
I confirm the spikes.
They represent about 20% of the mains signal, and seem weaker than in ION's screen shots. The difference could be due to the nature of the alloy. Here the heating wire is rather strongly attracted by neodymium magnets.

I also carried out a direct current measurement by connecting 2 probes to 2 points of the heater wire, close to each other, and by monitoring the voltage with the oscilloscope in differential mode: the current shows no spikes, it is a smooth sine shape.

There is really a non-linear magnetic effect. The magnetic field is not proportional to the current. This is puzzling.

   

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I can also confirm the pulses, i found an old 1K 25 watt wire wound pot, and can detect the pulse using my hall, but it's only there for a second or so the pot heats up pretty fast, next task in to film it  O0

As usual i screwed up something showed up which looked exactly like the pulse, it disappeared after a couple of seconds when the pot warmed up, the pulse was in phase with the ac waveform across the pot, but then i realized i could pick the pulse up anywhere round my bench, so powered off the variac it goes away, switched back on and it's amplitude varies with the variac setting but the hall sensor is no where near, so i disconnect the pot, blow me it's still there again varies with variac setting now this means the variac has no load, what the hell, I'm getting some sort of earth loop between my hall psu and the variac which are tied together via the scope earths, even though my psu is not earthed and uses a transformer?
The strange thing about it is that it goes after a couple of seconds when the variac has a load, it's definitely some sort of earth loop though because i see a little spark when i connect my scope earth to one side of the variac.

Looks like i will need to sit this out until the wire arrives.

This is probably a total waste of time but Just in case this means something i have filmed what i am seeing, the hall is not placed near anything of interest while scoping except when i place the north or south pole of a horseshoe magnet near it.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llIqI8krieY&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

Having thought about the hall, when the north is used it drives the hall to the positive rail and when south is used then it drives to the 0V rail, so that explains that i think, so it's noise on my rail or a ground current as i said earlier, i wonder why it disappears after a second when the variac has a load.
« Last Edit: 2012-08-12, 22:15:50 by Peterae »
   
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I have recorded with the sound card the signal from the coil probe.
MP3 and Adobe audition screen shots with the spectrum in the attached files.




   

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Nice work ex thanks for posting that  O0 very interesting.
   
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Ditto on that. I'm glad that you were able to get some degree of verification.

I took the grille cover off my heater and was able to better position the probe.

Now I can see extremely large sharp spikes at the zero cross both plus and minus transitions.

Soon hope to post a video of the scope traces and with audio of the heater.


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Interesting work, folks  :)

Anyone considered Barkhausen jumps for the zero crossing transition and the approach to and recession from peak?

This effect is seen in ferrous electrical conductors and tends to smooth out as the wire reaches a certain level of heat.

Edit>>

Know that I think about it.... most of the heating elements discussed will have a fair amount of nickel in the alloy. This means that magnetostriction may also be playing a part.
   
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Hi WW

Barkhousen jumps are a very fine graininess to a changing magnetic field. I've never seen anything near as large as these spikes.

We have covered that in prior posts.

Read from the beginning page for some fun and puzzlement.


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Ah...


Almost never having the time to read more than a page or two, I'll just refrain from posting and see what your conclusions come to.

Cheers  O0
   
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Barkhousen jumps are a very fine graininess to a changing magnetic field. I've never seen anything near as large as these spikes.
...

I agree. The Barhausen effect is even difficult to detect.
We must also keep in mind that here, the heating wire is not a coil with a ferromagnetic core, neither it constitutes the core of the coil probe.
The heating wire is itself the "core" of its own winding, but a rather thin core with a not colinear magnetic field, so its ferromagnetism should influence both the heating winding and the coil probe only slightly.

I would rather see a hysteresis effect. When the threshold points are attained, there is a strong dB/dt, especially if the material has a high coercitivity.
To be confirmed.

Today I have powered my heater with a variac. At 150v (instead of 230v) the disappearing of the 50 Hz even harmonics doesn't occur. The breaker interrupts the circuit before.

   

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Ah my wire just arrived i have 4 sizes 20,24,26 & 32 SWG Gauges, i still have 1 on order from a different supplier yet to come.

The wire is Nickel (approx. 60%) and Chromium (approx. 15%)
Not sure what the plan is, as from my last test i need some mains isolation if i use my variac, i maybe better off trying to drive from the Class A or driving the hall from a battery.
So i have 15 watts Class A if i go for 10V pk-pk i am looking at 1.5Amps with a required resistance of 6.666 Ohms.

So
Gauge: 20SWG Resistance per Metre (Ohms): 1.707             390 cm Don't have enough of this 1
Gauge: 24SWG Resistance per Metre (Ohms): 4.563             146 cm
Gauge: 26SWG Resistance per Metre (Ohms): 6.828             97.6 cm Length required
Gauge: 32SWG Resistance per Metre (Ohms): 18.99             35.1 cm


   
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The wire is Nickel (approx. 60%) and Chromium (approx. 15%)
Not sure what the plan is, as from my last test i need some mains isolation if i use my variac, i maybe better off trying to drive from the Class A or driving the hall from a battery.
So i have 15 watts Class A if i go for 10V pk-pk i am looking at 1.5Amps with a required resistance of 6.666 Ohms.

I hope the remaining 24% is iron. It should also have about 1.5% Silicon.

My recommendation would be to use a step down transformer after your Variac so you can boost the current and lower the voltage. A 24 volt secondary or thereabouts should suffice.

The effect is noticeable at lower currents than the 11 amps I have been using off the mains. I was able to see it at 2 to 3 amps when driven from a Variac.

This 80 / 20 Nichrome I have on hand is hard to work with, almost like spring steel and does not produce the effect.

 Hopefully the iron content in yours will make it easier to wind. Tightly wind on a 0.375 wooden dowel, then you can remove the dowel.

The number of turns is to your liking, with consideration to how you intend to drive it.

Best of luck.

EX:

You are correct and have obviously done the research. Barkhousen jumps are visible in any soft steel or transformer core, but as you say they are difficult to detect.

Try driving your heater from a step down transformer so you don't keep blowing the breaker.



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Well that non existant iron quote did get me a little bothered but it must be standard available wire they supply and looking at all the other specs from other suppliers the remaining is normally iron with a little silicon. If i do not see the effect then i shall look a little harder in to this, it's cheap stuff and he was a fast supplier that's why i choose him.

Thanks i will see what transformers i have available.

EDIT just tried bending a piece, seems to bend fairly easily  O0
   
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EX:
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Try driving your heater from a step down transformer so you don't keep blowing the breaker.

I did it (see my previous post).
I have also improved the measurement with a common mode rejection. The mains current is full of pulses, noise, HF... that has upset me for a while. Now the signal is cleaner and I get only one pulse at each half-period. The pulses are very strong in comparisson with the mains frequency, but I guess that it is due to a high-pass filter effect of the measurement circuit.

   
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Here  is a frame capture from a video of the effect. The video was too large (100meg) to upload. As POYNT and EX have shown, the small blips line up with the descent from peak of the AC current waveform i.e. when the current is changing amplitude, while the large spikes line up with the zero crossings, an actual change of direction of current.

Also included is a wave file where I plugged the magnetic probe into the microphone input and recorded it.

I had to normalize the gain as the signal was in the mud. You can view it with any wave editor as if it was a scope log.

When you listen to the wave file it is rich with harmonics.

Just use zoom in to see the waveform.


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I've been thinking ahead on how to use this spike.   It's nice to know what causes it, and to maximize it, but what can it do for us?   

Here's what I've been thinking.

We can bring a tuned coil and capacitor close to it so that it gets stimulated by the rapid rise time of the snaping magnetic domains.   Better yet:    create the primary of a TESLA coil out of this nichrome wire, and than tune the TESLA secondary to be resonant at a harmonic of it, than everytime the pulse comes it adds more energy to the tank circuit formed by the secondary, and it will be in phase with it and keep it going.

who's going to be first to achive this?   

Just think about it, no need for any electronics, just nichrome wire for the primary and wire and a hat for the secondary, how much simpler can it get?    O0

EM 

   

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Well still no results so far

I tried 1 meter of 32 SWG wire and wound it round a pencil.
I found a 0-25 0-25 transformer so wired these in series, i have now bypassed the 100 watt series bulb to give full mains.
Using my hall effect on a x1 probe to give me 10mV resolution god this scope is really noisy down this low setting.
Anyway the coil starts glowing orange after a about 5 seconds of the variac being up full.

Here's 2 photo's
1 of the coil and 1 of the scope across the coil and of the hall output.

I have not really noticed any audible noise either.

I need to yet check the wire resistance and use a magnet to see how magnetic the wire is, i will append that info to this post as i get it  O0

EDIT just an after thought, do you see the effect with the heater orientation to earth changed  8)
   
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Using my hall effect on a x1 probe ...

that's one of the problems, you won't see these with a magnetic field probe like a hall effect sensor.  

these spikes are not spikes in the magnetic field, but spikes in voltage induced in a pickoff coil, due to a RAPID but SMALL magnetization jump.

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OK well in that case whats the best construction, i want a very narrow wound coil with roughly how many turns?

The thing with the hall is that i can push it in between the turns of the iron heater coil to maximize pickup

How about a low volts relay coil with the core taken out, although this will only sit near the heater coil. not inbetween turns
   
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