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OverUnity Research > Benches > PhysicsProf (Moderator: PhysicsProf) > Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing
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Author Topic: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing  (Read 180665 times)
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img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #200 on: 2012-08-03, 15:57:29 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-03, 14:54:31
I'm going to run my ticker like this with a Lead-Acid battery and 2 ground-rods.
Pumping the 350V pulses through ground pulse-charging the battery.

Perhaps even using a GDT between the bridge-rectifier and the battery.

The 3 diodes are only used as a voltagedrop to the relay-vibrator.


I dont know if this needs 2 groundings but I wanted to test if it makes any difference pumping through the ground.
If my theory is correct and ground is a huge mass then it should act like an electrolytic capacitor with a large capitance.
In that case perhaps the 2 grounds should be connected on each side of the battery.

My ground-rods are 2 of those crossshaped galvanized fence-post things that you hammer into the ground to support a pole in the fence.
They are 60cm tall (2ft) and it took a sledgehammer to drive them into the ground.
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #201 on: 2012-08-03, 16:17:57 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-03, 15:57:29
I dont know if this needs 2 groundings but I wanted to test if it makes any difference pumping through the ground.
If my theory is correct and ground is a huge mass then it should act like an electrolytic capacitor with a large capitance.
In that case perhaps the 2 grounds should be connected on each side of the battery.

My ground-rods are 2 of those crossshaped galvanized fence-post things that you hammer into the ground to support a pole in the fence.
They are 60cm tall (2ft) and it took a sledgehammer to drive them into the ground.

If you measure the ground between two ground rod points it will have resistance, so as your two rods are effectively forming a conductor in your circuit, then you have a resistor, not a capacitor, in series with the battery or across the battery depending where you connect the rods.

This principle is used to measure ground resistivity for archaeological surveying etc.

Hoppy
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #202 on: 2012-08-03, 16:27:42 »
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Quote from: Hoppy on 2012-08-03, 16:17:57
If you measure the ground between two ground rod points it will have resistance, so as your two rods are effectively forming a conductor in your circuit, then you have a resistor, not a capacitor, in series with the battery or across the battery depending where you connect the rods.

This principle is used to measure ground resistivity for archaeological surveying etc.

Hoppy

Try this, I have and it works.

Drive 2 galvanized nails into the ground about 1meter apart.
Measure with a multimeter the voltage between the 2 nails, it should read perhaps 0.5v

Now connect a 12V battery to the 2 nails and leave it connected for about a minute.
Then measure the voltage again between the 2 nails.

There you have it, a capacitor!
The ground works as the electrolytic and can be charged.

In my schematics that would effectivly put a capacitor in series with the battery.
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #203 on: 2012-08-03, 16:54:25 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-03, 16:27:42
Try this, I have and it works.

Drive 2 galvanized nails into the ground about 1meter apart.
Measure with a multimeter the voltage between the 2 nails, it should read perhaps 0.5v

Now connect a 12V battery to the 2 nails and leave it connected for about a minute.
Then measure the voltage again between the 2 nails.

There you have it, a capacitor!
The ground works as the electrolytic and can be charged.


I suggest what you are seeing here is galvanic action. The earth rods and soil are acting as a cell that is charged by the 12V battery. The potential across the ground rods quickly falls when the 12V battery is removed. In effect there would be no gain because the circuit battery would in effect be charging an external earth battery and the energy stored would be leaked off between pulses and not returned to the 12v battery.

Hoppy
   
img  ion
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #204 on: 2012-08-03, 16:58:47 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Regarding the shunt resistor in series with the ground rod:

If you have AC across the resistor, current is flowing into and out of the ground rod.

A steady DC would indicate flow in one direction. (pumping with no backflow)

Since the AV plug has two diodes you can expect that the capacitive coupled ground  currents will be AC.



---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #205 on: 2012-08-03, 17:02:25 »
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Quote from: Hoppy on 2012-08-03, 16:54:25
I suggest what you are seeing here is galvanic action. The earth rods and soil are acting as a cell that is charged by the 12V battery. The potential across the ground rods quickly falls when the 12V battery is removed. In effect there would be no gain because the circuit battery would in effect be charging an external earth battery and the energy stored would be leaked off between pulses and not returned to the 12v battery.

Hoppy


Galvanic action? Between 2 equal metals?

And the charge does not leak off that fast. It could light a LED for almost a minute

It would not leak off with my 300Hz pulses and fullwave rectified it is 600Hz.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #206 on: 2012-08-03, 17:05:16 »
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Quote from: ION on 2012-08-03, 16:58:47
Regarding the shunt resistor in series with the ground rod:

If you have AC across the resistor, current is flowing into and out of the ground rod.

A steady DC would indicate flow in one direction. (pumping with no backflow)

Since the AV plug has two diodes you can expect that the capacitive coupled ground  currents will be AC.



The AV-plug works with just 1 diode aswell.
That would make the current go in one direction only.

The blocking oscillator works with kickback so there is only pulses in one direction.

But to be sure, put a diode in the ground connection.
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #207 on: 2012-08-03, 17:10:39 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-03, 17:02:25
Galvanic action? Between 2 equal metals?

And the charge does not leak off that fast. It could light a LED for almost a minute

It would not leak off with my 300Hz pulses and fullwave rectified it is 600Hz.


Then why do you read 0.5V before any battery is connected?

Even if no appreciable leakage, how do you gain any stored potential over that applied?

Hoppy
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #208 on: 2012-08-03, 17:13:54 »
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Quote from: Hoppy on 2012-08-03, 17:10:39
Then why do you read 0.5V before any battery is connected?

Even if no appreciable leakage, how do you gain any stored potential over that applied?

Hoppy

It would improve the ESR of the battery and draw the current-spikes from the ground instead of the battery.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #209 on: 2012-08-03, 17:16:14 »
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Quote from: Hoppy on 2012-08-03, 17:10:39
Then why do you read 0.5V before any battery is connected?

It was just an example.

There are always currents in the ground between 2 separate points.
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #210 on: 2012-08-03, 17:39:57 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-03, 17:13:54
It would improve the ESR of the battery and draw the current-spikes from the ground instead of the battery.


Hopefully you are right on this and can demonstrate more out than in as measured in Joules.

Hoppy
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #211 on: 2012-08-03, 17:57:30 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-03, 17:16:14
It was just an example.

There are always currents in the ground between 2 separate points.


Yes, this is well known through both geological anomalies (telluric currents) and man made earth currents which is why you can measure a voltage between two separate points. There has to be a current flow for a voltage to be measured between two points. However, the increased potential you measure when applying an external battery to the ground rods, is not a capacitive effect.

Hoppy
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #212 on: 2012-08-03, 18:18:06 »
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Quote from: Hoppy on 2012-08-03, 17:57:30
Yes, this is well known through both geological anomalies (telluric currents) and man made earth currents which is why you can measure a voltage between two separate points. There has to be a current flow for a voltage to be measured between two points. However, the increased potential you measure when applying an external battery to the ground rods, is not a capacitive effect.

Hoppy

You are right.

I would more call it charging an earthbattery.
Collecting ions on one of the rods.

Never the less it could still work.
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #213 on: 2012-08-03, 18:41:23 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-03, 18:18:06
You are right.

I would more call it charging an earthbattery.
Collecting ions on one of the rods.

Never the less it could still work.


As Grumpy commented earlier a capacitor to earth with HV on the other plate will IMO be a better candidate for pumping any free electrons into the circuit. The cap must be dumped to the battery whilst it is not on load.

Hoppy
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #214 on: 2012-08-03, 19:13:15 »
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Quote from: Hoppy on 2012-08-03, 18:41:23
As Grumpy commented earlier a capacitor to earth with HV on the other plate will IMO be a better candidate for pumping any free electrons into the circuit. The cap must be dumped to the battery whilst it is not on load.

Hoppy

A charging capacitor in series with a battery will dump its load into the battery.

Look at it as a voltagedivider.
And the cap with a higer voltage than the battery.
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #215 on: 2012-08-03, 21:22:56 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-03, 19:13:15
A charging capacitor in series with a battery will dump its load into the battery.

Look at it as a voltagedivider.
And the cap with a higer voltage than the battery.



Please post a schematic to show this arrangement.

Hoppy
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #216 on: 2012-08-03, 22:54:54 »

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Quote from: Hoppy on 2012-08-03, 18:41:23
As Grumpy commented earlier a capacitor to earth with HV on the other plate will IMO be a better candidate for pumping any free electrons into the circuit. The cap must be dumped to the battery whilst it is not on load.

Hoppy

I meant to indicate that this will not work.  If you could charge a capacitor with just a ground connection on one plate and hv potential on the other plate, then you would already have solved your energy problems.
   
img  Paul-R
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #217 on: 2012-08-03, 22:58:58 »
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Quote from: AllPhase on 2012-08-03, 14:50:48
Wattsup, that's a brilliant idea about a Diode Carrousel.

Thanks for sharing.
You're quite right, Allphase. It is the simplicity that is its elegance. And the idea
should work for resistors, capacitors or most things where one needs to try
out many different values quickly.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #218 on: 2012-08-04, 00:40:25 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2012-08-03, 22:54:54
I meant to indicate that this will not work.  If you could charge a capacitor with just a ground connection on one plate and hv potential on the other plate, then you would already have solved your energy problems.

I see that you have not tried it.
Never mind. Evetualluy you will and see how it works.

I feel you heat your home with oil or electricity and nothing else you better keep your mouth shut.
You are not allowed to say anything.

My home is heated with a heatpump and that goes further saving this planet.
   
img  AllPhase
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #219 on: 2012-08-04, 01:22:48 »
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Janost,

Please try a Spark Gap just before the diodes.  I think the circuit performance will sky rocket.
Maybe you could use a spark plug for the Spark Gap.

Thanks.
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #220 on: 2012-08-04, 03:22:58 »

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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-04, 00:40:25
I see that you have not tried it.
Never mind. Evetualluy you will and see how it works.

I feel you heat your home with oil or electricity and nothing else you better keep your mouth shut.
You are not allowed to say anything.

My home is heated with a heatpump and that goes further saving this planet.


I have tried it.  It does not work.  If it did, I could convert electrical potential to stored electrical charge and we would not be having this conversation.  Free electricity would abound.  An electrostatic generator would be a true power supply.  The static from sliding your socks on a carpet would light and heat your home.  You could charge millions of capacitors by connecting them to the positive terminal of a hv supply - and charge them without doing "work".  

Moderator note:  please don't be grumpy, Grumpy, as I deleted one non-technical sentence -- Janost was invited to the OUR forum and I'd like to see him treated as a guest, OK?
   Let's all take a deep breath and be friendly. Please.
 Janost has been very generous with sharing his ideas.   Thanks to you both.
Cheers, Steve. 

« Last Edit: 2012-08-04, 07:14:12 by PhysicsProf »
   
img  Paul-R
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #221 on: 2012-08-04, 10:38:42 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2012-08-04, 03:22:58
Free electricity would abound.
It does abound. That is the point of our work.

Getting at it is the problem.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #222 on: 2012-08-04, 11:02:18 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2012-08-04, 03:22:58
I have tried it.  It does not work.  If it did, I could convert electrical potential to stored electrical charge and we would not be having this conversation.  Free electricity would abound.  An electrostatic generator would be a true power supply.  The static from sliding your socks on a carpet would light and heat your home.  You could charge millions of capacitors by connecting them to the positive terminal of a hv supply - and charge them without doing "work".  

Moderator note:  please don't be grumpy, Grumpy, as I deleted one non-technical sentence -- Janost was invited to the OUR forum and I'd like to see him treated as a guest, OK?
   Let's all take a deep breath and be friendly. Please.
 Janost has been very generous with sharing his ideas.   Thanks to you both.
Cheers, Steve. 


No hard feelings  :)

The capacitor needs to be dequeued from the HV-supply with a diode.
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #223 on: 2012-08-04, 11:49:29 »
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There are clearly many circuit configurations that can be tried but the acid test for self-running is to leave it running long enough for it to cease running.  O0

Hoppy
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #224 on: 2012-08-04, 11:49:49 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2012-08-04, 03:22:58
I have tried it.  It does not work.  If it did, I could convert electrical potential to stored electrical charge and we would not be having this conversation.  Free electricity would abound.  An electrostatic generator would be a true power supply.  The static from sliding your socks on a carpet would light and heat your home.  You could charge millions of capacitors by connecting them to the positive terminal of a hv supply - and charge them without doing "work".  

That is exactly what an AV-plug does.
It is dequeued from the supply, charging a capacitor with electric potential.

2 or more parallell AV-plugs does not change the current consumed by the HV-supply.
   
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