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OverUnity Research > Benches > PhysicsProf (Moderator: PhysicsProf) > Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing
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img  Hoppy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #150 on: 2012-08-01, 17:54:49 »
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The kick-back is at a very low level in terms of what energy is available to charge the battery after the battery has stabilised, so cannot replace the much higher level of energy consumed by the oscillator. A more sophisticated earthing arrangement may possibly help to increase any energy pumped from the ground.

Hoppy
   
img  e2matrix
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #151 on: 2012-08-01, 18:44:50 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-01, 10:21:34
It is just a matter of how much you want build.

If you build the bugzapper version you only need to find a tennisracket bugzapper and the HV-gen is prebuilt.
But they draw a rather large current.

The relay ignitioncoil version can lower the currentdraw but the relay will fail being run in a bad mode.

Both do the same.

The relayversion might be useful using only the relay.
It draws a tiny 7.5mA oscillating and run on 6v.
But the kickback pulses are 46v and grounded it can charge a battery or capacitor without any transformers.
It ran for 57seconds using only my cap-bank.


I think that is quite amazing it ran for 57 seconds off of caps.  It's not like it was Super Caps in the hundreds of Farads.  Must be some resonance, ringing or something special going on here. 
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #152 on: 2012-08-01, 18:54:18 »
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Quote from: janost on Today at 10:21:34
It is just a matter of how much you want build.

If you build the bugzapper version you only need to find a tennisracket bugzapper and the HV-gen is prebuilt.
But they draw a rather large current.

The relay ignitioncoil version can lower the currentdraw but the relay will fail being run in a bad mode.

Both do the same.

The relayversion might be useful using only the relay.
It draws a tiny 7.5mA oscillating and run on 6v.
But the kickback pulses are 46v and grounded it can charge a battery or capacitor without any transformers.
It ran for 57seconds using only my cap-bank.


I think that is quite amazing it ran for 57 seconds off of caps.  It's not like it was Super Caps in the hundreds of Farads.  Must be some resonance, ringing or something special going on here.  

Quote from: e2matrix on 2012-08-01, 18:44:50
I think that is quite amazing it ran for 57 seconds off of caps.  It's not like it was Super Caps in the hundreds of Farads.  Must be some resonance, ringing or something special going on here.  

Thanks for the reply, Janost -- and I agree with e2matrix!

I have a question about DC-to-DC converters, as recommended above (I think by e2matrix) -- does anyone know HOW they work?  I'm guessing they go DC to AC, step down (or step up) transformer, then rectify back to DC -- but would like to know!

Photo from an advertisement at eBay, for one of the converters I've ordered. Quite high efficiency at 98% !
 It looks like they dumped the output power into a 12-ohm resistor... what do you think? 

If the "special grounding" is a key here to Janost's build, what if we started with a DC-to-DC converter and added the special grounding at some point?....?
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #153 on: 2012-08-01, 19:33:36 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012-08-01, 18:54:18
Thanks for the reply, Janost -- and I agree with e2matrix!

I have a question about DC-to-DC converters, as recommended above (I think by e2matrix) -- does anyone know HOW they work?  I'm guessing they go DC to AC, step down (or step up) transformer, then rectify back to DC -- but would like to know!

Photo from an advertisement at eBay, for one of the converters I've ordered. Quite high efficiency at 98% !
 It looks like they dumped the output power into a 12-ohm resistor... what do you think? 

If the "special grounding" is a key here to Janost's build, what if we started with a DC-to-DC converter and added the special grounding at some point?....?

DC-DC converters are usually buck or boost converters.
The charge a singel coil and adds the kickback to the supply-voltage.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #154 on: 2012-08-01, 19:40:25 »
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Quote from: e2matrix on 2012-08-01, 18:44:50
I think that is quite amazing it ran for 57 seconds off of caps.  It's not like it was Super Caps in the hundreds of Farads.  Must be some resonance, ringing or something special going on here.  

7.5mA is almost 1/3 of the current drawn by an standard red LED.
I measured the current from the battery charging the cap-bank.

When the relay is wired to break its own supply the contacts open before the relay hits the opposite side and it relaxes again.
It operates around 300Hz.

But powered on 6V it generates a kickback pulse of 46v and it does so 300times/sec and that is indeed power.

The thing with these is that they cannot self-run without an isolation transformer because it would short out the coil no matter how you connect the feedback.

« Last Edit: 2012-08-01, 20:10:45 by janost »
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #155 on: 2012-08-01, 19:46:39 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-01, 17:45:58
This did not work well.
The GDT strikes once per second.

I changed the cap to 13nF and it strikes with 114Hz but no energy goes in to the transformer.
I think all the energy just goes into the GDT an none into the transformer.

Would i work better with the GDT in series and the cap parallell?

Well back to the AV-plug as I know that it works.


Hi Janost,

Hm... It does looks like the 3:1 trafo choking the current.  If GDT series and cap parallel would strike more than 1 Hz, we would know. lol 

   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #156 on: 2012-08-01, 20:13:54 »
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Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012-08-01, 19:46:39
Hi Janost,

Hm... It does looks like the 3:1 trafo choking the current.  If GDT series and cap parallel would strike more than 1 Hz, we would know. lol 



I measured the primary of the stepdown an it has a DC-resistans of only 7.6ohms  :o
Its not broken because I have used it on line-power.

I will never get this one ringing without the SCR.
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #157 on: 2012-08-01, 21:06:32 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-01, 20:13:54
I measured the primary of the stepdown an it has a DC-resistans of only 7.6ohms  :o
Its not broken because I have used it on line-power.

I will never get this one ringing without the SCR.


Weird, It doesn't make sense that connection is doing worse than single wire.  Unless the single diode posting problem.  Maybe full wave rectifier?
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #158 on: 2012-08-01, 21:58:14 »
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Ok, I see it now.  You're right, it's the SCR.  We could use your third revision but connect ground to cap?

   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #159 on: 2012-08-02, 11:11:01 »
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Here is another circuit I played with this morning.
Even though the cap is just 47000uF this one runs for almost 1min 30sec.

Still need some adjustment and perhaps a SCR to increase current in the second transformer.

Warning!
Even after the circuit dies there is still almost 200V left in the capacitor!

I found out the hard way.


« Last Edit: 2012-08-02, 14:00:54 by janost »
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #160 on: 2012-08-02, 11:40:18 »
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Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012-08-01, 21:58:14
Ok, I see it now.  You're right, it's the SCR.  We could use your third revision but connect ground to cap?


It have to be built like a SCR-ignition or CDI.
The cap charges from the HV through the primary winding and when the SCR fires the cap get connected across the primary.
The reverse diode over the SCR carries the reverse current when the primary is ringing.


« Last Edit: 2012-08-02, 14:09:30 by janost »
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #161 on: 2012-08-02, 14:30:24 »

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tExB=qr
1N4007's do not make good avalanche diodes
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #162 on: 2012-08-02, 14:35:20 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-02, 11:11:01
Here is another circuit I played with this morning.
Even though the cap is just 47000uF this one runs for almost 1min 30sec.

Still need some adjustment and perhaps a SCR to increase current in the second transformer.

Warning!
Even after the circuit dies there is still almost 200V left in the capacitor!

I found out the hard way.




Thanks Janost,

I'm satisfy with Ticker2 configuration.  It may not be better than AV plug method, but it is mobilize now. lol    



  
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #163 on: 2012-08-02, 15:30:27 »
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Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012-08-02, 14:35:20
Thanks Janost,

I'm satisfy with Ticker2 configuration.  It may not be better than AV plug method, but it is mobilize now. lol    


Just remember that pulsing a transformer backwards like this is not a toy.
The output is not HV and it will light bulbs and drive motors.
The pulses out from the transformer are over 300V with a current of 20mA.
Without the GDT my capacitor got charged to 350VDC.

You can get some nasty shocks.
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #164 on: 2012-08-02, 16:28:27 »
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Janost,

Have you worked out the average power consumed by your 6V pulsing relay over the discharge period of the big cap to the point of cut-off? This will enable you to calculate the energy consumed by the circuit to see if this is in excess of what should be possible from the fully charged cap. Its Joules in and out that will determine if anything special is happening, not just volts and current.

Hoppy
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #165 on: 2012-08-02, 17:58:44 »
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Quote from: Hoppy on 2012-08-02, 16:28:27
Janost,

Have you worked out the average power consumed by your 6V pulsing relay over the discharge period of the big cap to the point of cut-off? This will enable you to calculate the energy consumed by the circuit to see if this is in excess of what should be possible from the fully charged cap. Its Joules in and out that will determine if anything special is happening, not just volts and current.

Hoppy

I have worked out what the ticker draws by inserting the multimeter between a battery and the cap-bank.
That way it just shows how much needs to be refilled into the caps to keep it running.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #166 on: 2012-08-02, 18:02:01 »
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This is my Lab-ticker that I use for quick mockups.

It draws 32mA from a 4.5V battery and makes a pitched whining when running.

The output is 250VAC or 500VDC and the output reach 200VDC in just a couple of cycles.
Output current is 8.6mA AC and 3.2mA DC
   
img  ion
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #167 on: 2012-08-02, 19:34:44 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Rather than using a single diode bootstrap and clamp (snubber)  diode, use a bridge rectifier on the secondary. This will steer the positive pulse and the ringback into the large capacitors and utilize all of the stored magnetic energy rather than wasting it in the clamp (snubber) diode.

The only ringing left in the primary will be due to leakage inductance.

Since you are using an isolation transformer, this should not pose a problem.

The doubler circuit you show above is also a good way to do it.

When I play with circuits like this, I use a external source  to feed the large caps with just enough current limiting to keep it running. Then as I perform the tuning operations and circuit changes, I can observe lower and lower current required from the external source. Then I know I am heading in the right direction.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #168 on: 2012-08-02, 20:10:45 »
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I prefer the bugzapper circuits as they give me kilovolts with just an AA battery.
But the currentdraw is a bit to large.

To swing a relay with just a few milliamps is greate but the output is lower.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #169 on: 2012-08-02, 20:23:05 »
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Quote from: ION on 2012-08-02, 19:34:44
When I play with circuits like this, I use a external source  to feed the large caps with just enough current limiting to keep it running. Then as I perform the tuning operations and circuit changes, I can observe lower and lower current required from the external source. Then I know I am heading in the right direction.

When I play with these voltages I connect a transformer backwards to an AC wallwart and plug it in.
That gives me 250VAC isolated and nothing bad will happen even if I touch it or it gets shorted.

It is an isolated line level source and I wish more people would do the same instead of doing things with wall-power.
   
img  e2matrix
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #170 on: 2012-08-03, 01:47:02 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-02, 18:02:01
This is my Lab-ticker that I use for quick mockups.

It draws 32mA from a 4.5V battery and makes a pitched whining when running.

The output is 250VAC or 500VDC and the output reach 200VDC in just a couple of cycles.
Output current is 8.6mA AC and 3.2mA DC



Quick run on numbers that seems like about COP > 14.9  !!!  That's just looking at the AC output!   Is that correct ?   I just jumped in for a quick look here and haven't read the last page or so. 
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #171 on: 2012-08-03, 01:55:58 »
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Quote from: e2matrix on 2012-08-03, 01:47:02
Quick run on numbers that seems like about COP > 14.9  !!!  That's just looking at the AC output!   Is that correct ?   I just jumped in for a quick look here and haven't read the last page or so.  

No, that is not correct.

It is the power it delivers into a full short.
The voltage may not be high in a full short but it is the current that makes you jump out of the chair.

Why do you argue if you havent built it yourself?
I just said it it dangerous, I didnt say that that you should touch the wires.

You dont really get it do you?
You think that it is the voltage that kills you?

I have lit Neon-tubes with 1200v through my body and not felt a thing.
But there is no amperage in that.

The last thing I want is people knowing how everthing works without trying a single thing themself.

And where did you get your COP numbers from?
Did you calculate them from the voltages?

WTF!
COP 14??!! Where did you get that!!

It is a 3VA transformer and 250VAC and 0.008A makes 2watts so what is your problem?


I'm pissed and input ended here  :(
I dont need you on my back and there will be no more input on this forum!

I'm going to logoff forever but I just want to see your answer first.
« Last Edit: 2012-08-03, 02:53:17 by janost »
   
img  e2matrix
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #172 on: 2012-08-03, 03:05:00 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-03, 01:55:58
No, that is not correct.

It is the power it delivers into a full short.
The voltage may not be high in a full short but it is the current that makes you jump out of the chair.

Why do you argue if you havent built it yourself?
I just said it it dangerous, I didnt say that that you should touch the wires.

You dont really get it do you?
You think that it is the voltage that kills you?

I have lit Neon-tubes with 1200v through my body and not felt a thing.
But there is no amperage in that.

The last thing I want is people knowing how everthing works without trying a single thing themself.

And where did you get your COP numbers from?
Did you calculate them from the voltages?

WTF!
COP 14??!! Where did you get that!!

It is a 3VA transformer and 250VAC and 0.008A makes 2watts so what is your problem?


I'm pissed and input ended here  :(
I dont need you on my back and ther will be no more input on this forum!

Very strange.... I've only been encouraging here.  I'm building this but waiting on parts.  I've gotten some today.  I've been building electronic devices for over 50 years.  No that's not my age.  I know voltage doesn't kill - where did that come from.  I said nothing about voltage.  I said nothing about touching wires either.  You seem seriously confused or are mixing me up with someone else's message.   It doesn't even sound like your message is directed at me as it makes no sense - I wasn't arguing anything.  I was asking about COP which I didn't know if you had a load you measured on or what so I was largely asking and had simply calculated by multiplying the input you gave Volts times amps and dividing that result into the result from the output you gave volts times amps.  In other words watts in divided into watts out.  I don't have any problems and am just trying to understand and was trying to be supportive but you are acting like a full moon crazy.   I really don't understand your reaction here and it doesn't sound like you unless you been tipping a few too many brews ?   Any way I intended nothing offensive toward you.  No need to leave here because of me - I'm not on this forum that much anyway.  Regards
   
img  e2matrix
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #173 on: 2012-08-03, 03:16:42 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-02, 18:02:01
This is my Lab-ticker that I use for quick mockups.

It draws 32mA from a 4.5V battery and makes a pitched whining when running.

The output is 250VAC or 500VDC and the output reach 200VDC in just a couple of cycles.
Output current is 8.6mA AC and 3.2mA DC


Draw is .032 A x 4.5 V = 0.144 watts
Output is .0086 A x 250 V = 2.15 watts
Output / Input = 2.15 / 0.144 = 14.93 more out than in - but I'm just comparing watts not Joules so maybe that means nothing.  I was asking.  I don't know all this in depth but I thought it sounded good and encouraging.  Almost too good so I was ASKING.  I do not know why you would take offense for that. 
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #174 on: 2012-08-03, 03:20:03 »
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Quote from: e2matrix on 2012-08-03, 03:05:00
Very strange.... I've only been encouraging here.  I'm building this but waiting on parts.  I've gotten some today.  I've been building electronic devices for over 50 years.  No that's not my age.  I know voltage doesn't kill - where did that come from.  I said nothing about voltage.  It doesn't even sound like your message is directed at me as it makes no sense - I wasn't arguing anything.  I was asking about COP  which I didn't know if you had a load you measured on or what so I was largely asking and had simply calculated by multiplying the input you gave Volts times amps and dividing that result into the result from the output you gave volts times amps.  In other words watts in divided into watts out.  I don't have any problems and am just trying to understand and was trying to be supportive but you are acting like a full moon crazy.   I really don't understand your reaction here and it doesn't sound like you unless you been tipping a few too many brews ?   Any way I intended nothing offensive toward you.  No need to leave here because of me - I'm not on this forum that much anyway.  Regards

There is only COP 1 in a transformer.
And I have never claimed higher in a simple transformer circuit.

And perhaps I overreacted.

I'm sorry and have no excuse.
 
   
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