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OverUnity Research > Benches > PhysicsProf (Moderator: PhysicsProf) > Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing
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Author Topic: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing  (Read 180658 times)
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img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #125 on: 2012-07-31, 20:48:22 »
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Quote from: Hoppy on 2012-07-31, 17:07:03
Peterae,

Good suggestion. I've tried LiION in previous experiments but not LiFePO4. However, I would like to see some of us try LiION as used by Janost but in a controlled condition where the circuit can be physically protected just in case of ignition. Janost is claiming self-running with LiION and for the sake of a really true replication we should try LiION at the same capacity as Janost uses. Perhaps Janost could post a photo of his battery and state its capacity? He has not reported any problems running with his LiION battery, so with suitable protection, this would be a good way of seeing if the battery chemistry is the key.

Hoppy

Li-Ion are not dangerous if you meet these 4 requirements:

Never discharge below 2.5v, nothing happens but when you charge it again they will be a full short.

Never charge above 4.2v, doing so will cause a thermal runaway and they will combust, very bad!

Never discharge with a current higher than 0.1C, same as above, explosion or combustion.

Never charge with more than 0.1C unless you have control of the cell temperature, again thermal runaway can happen.

I have about 150 of these 18650 Li-Ion cells as I work with computers.
In a laptop the control circuit scraps the battery if just a singel cell i bad so I collect these scrapped laptop batteries.

When I first started using these I soldered 16 of these in parallell for a 3.6v 35Ah Li-Ion battery.
Very bad as all sorts of dangers could have happened but I didnt know and nothing happened.

They are safe if you know what you are doing  ;)
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #126 on: 2012-07-31, 21:09:46 »
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Thanks for this update:

Quote from: janost on 2012-07-31, 19:48:06
And my first electronpump stopped last night after 13days and the Li-Ion cell reached 2.79v
2 weeks is a long time generating power to a parallell load.

The problem with the blocking-osc is it's enormous currentdraw when the transistor is conducting.
If that could be reduced it would work better.

However after the Li-Ion cell being disconnected for 4hours it is running again with a cellvoltage of 2.81v  O0

A remarkable accomplishment!   I encourage you to keep that "first electronpump "  intact, as is, for posterity sake if nothing else.

Can you remind us -- what was the parallel load? and did you measure how much output power it was actually drawing?
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #127 on: 2012-07-31, 21:14:35 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-07-31, 19:48:06
And my first electronpump stopped last night after 13days and the Li-Ion cell reached 2.79v
2 weeks is a long time generating power to a parallell load.

The problem with the blocking-osc is it's enormous currentdraw when the transistor is conducting.
If that could be reduced it would work better.

However after the Li-Ion cell being disconnected for 4hours it is running again with a cellvoltage of 2.81v  O0

Janost,

Can you please let give the capacity of your LiION cell and its manufacturer?

Hoppy
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #128 on: 2012-07-31, 21:17:10 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012-07-31, 21:09:46
Thanks for this update:

A remarkable accomplishment!   I encourage you to keep that "first electronpump "  intact, as is, for posterity sake if nothing else.

Can you remind us -- what was the parallel load? and did you measure how much output power it was actually drawing?

My parallell load is just a 12v LED bulb.
They are about 3w and not shining with the full strength.
I know its not much but the goal is to keep the pump running.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #129 on: 2012-07-31, 21:22:02 »
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Quote from: Hoppy on 2012-07-31, 21:14:35
Janost,

Can you please let give the capacity of your LiION cell and its manufacturer?

Hoppy

It is a standard 18650 2200mAh cell.
The one used in about every laptop on this planet.
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #130 on: 2012-07-31, 21:25:02 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-07-31, 21:22:02
It is a standard 18650 2200mAh cell.
The one used in about every laptop on this planet.


Thanks Janost.

Hoppy
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #131 on: 2012-07-31, 21:29:14 »
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I know that 2.81v is on the backslope of a Li-Ion but it works and balances.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #132 on: 2012-07-31, 21:45:29 »
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Quote from: Hoppy on 2012-07-31, 21:25:02
Thanks Janost.

Hoppy

Find a laptop battery thrown to recycling.
Open the pack, disconnect the cells from each other and throw the ones with a voltage of less than 2.5v back again.

The ones with a voltage over 2.5v are good to use.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #133 on: 2012-07-31, 23:02:41 »
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Ok, after rearranging after my new schematics it draws 91mA with a shuntresistance of 42ohms.

It lights a small CFL so there is HV for sure.

Now it runs for 4seconds on a full charge in the cap-bank.

The relay sounds awfull and I dont expect it to last for long.

I would like to have a pot as shunt so that I could adjust it for low power but I think it needs to be a wirewound or else it would be history.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #134 on: 2012-07-31, 23:26:36 »
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I always like to touch my HV circuits and its not dangerous.

Nothing happened at first with the CFL but when I touched the other end, bang, it lit up like a christmas-tree  ;D
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #135 on: 2012-08-01, 02:05:51 »
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ok, I got it down to 35mA driving an ignitioncoil and still lighting a CFL.
   
img  e2matrix
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #136 on: 2012-08-01, 04:22:53 »
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Just a couple notes on 18650 batteries and Li-Ion batteries as I've got a long history with them studying all their characteristics when involved with a group that was intensely interested in them and maximizing the battery life as well as keeping things safe.  New 18650's have higher mah ratings than older ones and have become very affordable.  New ones with protection built in can be had for as little as about $1.60 each for 3000 mah batteries  (one example here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-UltraFire-18650-3000mAh-3-7V-Rechargeable-Flashlight-Torch-Li-ion-Battery-Red-/280915632484?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item4167e06164 ) and that includes shipping.  If you value you Li-Ions you will never let them go below 2.8 volts but it's really best to never let them go below about 3.2 volts as they have almost no capacity left by that point.  If you charge them to 4.10 volts max you will double the amount of cycles you get out of them (probably 1000 cycles rather than 500) versus charging them to a full 4.20 volts.  You will only have about 10% less capacity or run time starting at 4.10 volts versus 4.20 volts.  Avoid running these cells in series unless all are balanced and at the same exact voltage.  Doing otherwise is where dangerous problems can start.  While only a little larger physically than a AA battery they have a lot more power and thus danger if not used properly. 

Like janost I've gotten a lot of them from tearing apart laptops so if you have access to them that way it's a way to recycle and save a few bucks but as I mentioned they have gotten incredibly cheap (probably due to the competition of so many making them for laptops as well as other gadgets) so it's cheap also to get new ones which you know have never been run down to a point that they become dangerous to recharge.  If you've never seen one ignite or explode search youtube and you can see the effects of them.  Also the fumes from one that has thermal runaway (flames) is extremely toxic - even a whiff can send you to the hospital.  That being said I still feel they are safe if treated right. 
   
img  e2matrix
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #137 on: 2012-08-01, 05:11:49 »
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janost, a couple of thoughts...  You say you were running a 12 volt LED for a couple weeks.  LED's normally run direct at about 3 to 5 volts max unless they are huge multi-die LED's.  A 12 volt LED makes me think you have an automotive LED which may use a down converter or even just a resistor to reduce the voltage and thus waste power in heat or converting it down to the LED's voltage.  If you have some bare LED's you might do better to run 3 or 4 in series direct if you have a 12 volt output.  But what I'm more interested in is if you can use some of the output to feed back to the battery to possibly keep it charged while still running a small load.  That would of course make it the 'self-runner' as the title of this thread indicates and would be something to jump up and down screaming like a little kid about ;)   Have you tried anything like this yet?   Those cheap DC-DC converters I mentioned (which I've got a couple of them and am always looking for things to try looping back on with them) or even a 7805 you mentioned might do it.  What do you think?  I think if it's not a self runner it's just another very efficient circuit.  I do look forward to trying some things with it as I've got parts on the way. 
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #138 on: 2012-08-01, 05:20:40 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-01, 02:05:51
ok, I got it down to 35mA driving an ignitioncoil and still lighting a CFL.


I have parts on the way also, and wonder WHICH circuit do you think is better, the one with the ignition coil, or the one with the bug-zapper coil?  (Better in terms of overall Pout/Pin)

Thanks for the pointers and the ebay source for Li Ion batteries, e2matrix -- I'll be careful! 
   
img  wattsup
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #139 on: 2012-08-01, 06:06:09 »
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@Janost

Hello and I have two questions if possible.

I would like to know on the first circuit unit, when you measure the battery voltage, do you always leave the volt meter on the battery or do you just touch the meter probes to the battery only when you want to know the voltage. Sometimes on such low voltage systems, just leaving the meter probes on a battery can keep it from falling. I have been spooked by that more then once. lol

My last question is one of frequency in that circuit. The frequency seems set by all factors ok but mainly the 630nF capacitor that regulates an overall fixed working frequency. But if one wanted to do the same circuit but with a variable frequency generator, would the following change to the diagram be correct. (See diagram change). Seems to me that there must be a much better frequency to find then to simply rely on the default. Finding that better frequency may assist in then making a better fixed circuit to drive the base.

Maybe our friendly neighborhood hero @woopy can take a shot at it.  hehe

wattsup

PS: If the mod is wrong, please correct.


---------------------------
http://etherimpress.com
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #140 on: 2012-08-01, 10:11:51 »
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Quote from: wattsup on 2012-08-01, 06:06:09
@Janost

Hello and I have two questions if possible.

I would like to know on the first circuit unit, when you measure the battery voltage, do you always leave the volt meter on the battery or do you just touch the meter probes to the battery only when you want to know the voltage. Sometimes on such low voltage systems, just leaving the meter probes on a battery can keep it from falling. I have been spooked by that more then once. lol

My last question is one of frequency in that circuit. The frequency seems set by all factors ok but mainly the 630nF capacitor that regulates an overall fixed working frequency. But if one wanted to do the same circuit but with a variable frequency generator, would the following change to the diagram be correct. (See diagram change). Seems to me that there must be a much better frequency to find then to simply rely on the default. Finding that better frequency may assist in then making a better fixed circuit to drive the base.

Maybe our friendly neighborhood hero @woopy can take a shot at it.  hehe

wattsup

PS: If the mod is wrong, please correct.

I just touch the probes to the battery not leaving them there.

The frequency of the blocking-osc is set by the stepup transformer inductance.
If you want to have it adjustable then yes, your mod is correct.
The advantage of having a controllable osc is that you can set the pulseratio and decrease the currentdraw.

The 630nF cap sets the operating frequency of the stepdown transformer.
 It is approx. 20Hz and a smaller cap charges faster but contains less energy to discharge.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #141 on: 2012-08-01, 10:14:20 »
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Quote from: e2matrix on 2012-08-01, 05:11:49
janost, a couple of thoughts...  You say you were running a 12 volt LED for a couple weeks.  LED's normally run direct at about 3 to 5 volts max unless they are huge multi-die LED's.  A 12 volt LED makes me think you have an automotive LED which may use a down converter or even just a resistor to reduce the voltage and thus waste power in heat or converting it down to the LED's voltage.  If you have some bare LED's you might do better to run 3 or 4 in series direct if you have a 12 volt output.  But what I'm more interested in is if you can use some of the output to feed back to the battery to possibly keep it charged while still running a small load.  That would of course make it the 'self-runner' as the title of this thread indicates and would be something to jump up and down screaming like a little kid about ;)   Have you tried anything like this yet?   Those cheap DC-DC converters I mentioned (which I've got a couple of them and am always looking for things to try looping back on with them) or even a 7805 you mentioned might do it.  What do you think?  I think if it's not a self runner it's just another very efficient circuit.  I do look forward to trying some things with it as I've got parts on the way. 

I just used a load that would visualize that it is running.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #142 on: 2012-08-01, 10:21:34 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012-08-01, 05:20:40
I have parts on the way also, and wonder WHICH circuit do you think is better, the one with the ignition coil, or the one with the bug-zapper coil?  (Better in terms of overall Pout/Pin)

Thanks for the pointers and the ebay source for Li Ion batteries, e2matrix -- I'll be careful!  

It is just a matter of how much you want build.

If you build the bugzapper version you only need to find a tennisracket bugzapper and the HV-gen is prebuilt.
But they draw a rather large current.

The relay ignitioncoil version can lower the currentdraw but the relay will fail being run in a bad mode.

Both do the same.

The relayversion might be useful using only the relay.
It draws a tiny 7.5mA oscillating and run on 6v.
But the kickback pulses are 46v and grounded it can charge a battery or capacitor without any transformers.
It ran for 57seconds using only my cap-bank.
« Last Edit: 2012-08-01, 10:49:16 by janost »
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #143 on: 2012-08-01, 10:41:02 »
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Do you think that adding the standard breakerpoint capacitor of 0.22uF over the ignitioncoil primary will increase the coil ringing?
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #144 on: 2012-08-01, 11:18:58 »
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I will try the stepdown without an AV-plug first to see if it operates any differently.

By that I mean rectifying the HV, using a parallell sparkgap and a series capacitor to get the stepdown to ring.

The Tesla way.

« Last Edit: 2012-08-01, 12:07:40 by janost »
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #145 on: 2012-08-01, 11:53:19 »
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Here is a very simple self-running candidate for those who like to experiment but dont want to build that much.

When the switch is closed the capacitor charges and when the switch is opened it runs for about 30seconds charging the battery with kickback pulses.

A second relay could be wired in to operate the switch automatically.
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #146 on: 2012-08-01, 12:45:42 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-01, 11:53:19
Here is a very simple self-running candidate for those who like to experiment but dont want to build that much.

When the switch is closed the capacitor charges and when the switch is opened it runs for about 30seconds charging the battery with kickback pulses.

A second relay could be wired in to operate the switch automatically.




Janost,

Why do you term this circuit a self-running candidate?

Hoppy
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #147 on: 2012-08-01, 13:26:30 »
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Quote from: Hoppy on 2012-08-01, 12:45:42
Janost,

Why do you term this circuit a self-running candidate?

Hoppy

Same as the electronpump, the kickback pulses are stronger when grounding the coil.
It can be tested with a capacitor instead of the battery but needs a battery to start.
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #148 on: 2012-08-01, 14:53:14 »
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Quote from: EMdevices on 2012-07-31, 18:35:31
these circuits are really unbalanced to balanced transitions, and so we can eliminate the ground with the schematic below.   This might be advantageous in a mobile application.  If it doesn't work, than perhaps the earth ground is necessary after all.

EM

It is elegant.  I don't think we want large current running which loads the primary, but we do not want so little current which does not make enough feed back.  I think one can adjust ground to give more output or direct connect and adjust cap value.  Increase output would increase input, but if we can trade little input for more output, why not.     
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #149 on: 2012-08-01, 17:45:58 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-01, 11:18:58
I will try the stepdown without an AV-plug first to see if it operates any differently.

By that I mean rectifying the HV, using a parallell sparkgap and a series capacitor to get the stepdown to ring.

The Tesla way.


This did not work well.
The GDT strikes once per second.

I changed the cap to 13nF and it strikes with 114Hz but no energy goes in to the transformer.
I think all the energy just goes into the GDT an none into the transformer.

Would i work better with the GDT in series and the cap parallell?

Well back to the AV-plug as I know that it works.
   
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