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OverUnity Research > Benches > PhysicsProf (Moderator: PhysicsProf) > Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing
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Author Topic: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing  (Read 180664 times)
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img  ion
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #100 on: 2012-07-31, 15:02:46 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-07-31, 11:55:54
A heatpump pumps heat from the ambient outside (Air/ground) into the house.

What if my device does the same?
Pumps electrons from the ambient?


Is this the claim? Certainly a possibility but definitive testing and data is required to support the claim....and replication.

I am happy to see you gentlemen raising the right questions. A battery is certainly different than a capacitor, yet under certain conditions it can be made to somewhat resemble a battery. The model shown does not exactly match a Li Ion battery. There are no non-linear elements in this model. The charge / discharge curve for a Li Ion would not match the circuit shown, but it is a start.

Edit: Ri is a non linear element

    Rm is the resistance of the metallic path through the cell including the terminals, electrodes and inter-connections.
    Ra is the resistance of the electrochemical path including the electrolyte and the separator.
    Cb is the capacitance of the parallel plates which form the electrodes of the cell.
    Ri is the non-linear contact resistance between the plate or electrode and the electrolyte.

I wrongly assumed all elements were linear. So this cannot be modeled with simple resistors.


EX is right to raise the questions and Janost has some good replies. Time will tell, be patient and remain as gentlemen.

I support both points of view, which should not be silenced.

Janost's circuit is one of the more interesting to hit the forum in recent days.

I would, however, limit the gate firing current with a resistor (1000 ohm)  in series with the GDT so as to not blow the gate or waste too much of the charging energy of the 330 uf cap. Also a small gate to cathode resistor (100 ohm) will prevent false triggering effects.  Replacing the GDT with a diac and RC time constant generator might provide more control over the triggering independent of charging. All this is moot though if it destroys the effect.
« Last Edit: 2012-07-31, 15:31:36 by ION »


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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #101 on: 2012-07-31, 15:32:48 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2012-07-31, 14:48:23
Do you have a reference for NASA's use of AV-plugs?

Again, do you have a reference for this claim?

Sorry, I couldnt find any official document from NASA.
Only other people claiming so and thats not good enough  :-[
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #102 on: 2012-07-31, 15:50:44 »
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Quote from: ION on 2012-07-31, 15:02:46
I would, however, limit the gate firing current with a resistor (1000 ohm)  in series with the GDT so as to not blow the gate or waste too much of the charging energy of the 330 uf cap. Also a small gate to cathode resistor (100 ohm) will prevent false triggering effects.  Replacing the GDT with a diac and RC time constant generator might provide more control over the triggering independent of charging. All this is moot though if it destroys the effect.

I think you are right.

To get the 1.5v 30mA gate fire current I calculated the gate resistor to 6,4Kohm
Perhaps 3Kohm or 4,7Kohm to make sure i fires.

The feedback could be done with a potentiometer from the rectified output to feed back just the amount of current it consumes.
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #103 on: 2012-07-31, 15:57:40 »

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Quote from: janost on 2012-07-31, 11:55:54
A heatpump pumps heat from the ambient outside (Air/ground) into the house.

What if my device does the same?
Pumps electrons from the ambient?

you got the right idea, sort of

Your capacitor is wide open though, with no cummulative pumping.

Harold Aspden has a very good design for this, if you are interested.  I think Kapanadze's Garden Demo device used the same principles, as did Ed Gray's device.  Aspden actually explains it though.

I've worked with the AV-Plug, and while not difinitive, I don't see how it can be OU.  Going over the literature, it is presented as a means of one-wire transmission, and I believe that it accomplishes that.

I'd replace the GDT with an avalanche transistor stack and no gap.
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #104 on: 2012-07-31, 16:05:10 »
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Hi Janost

I see you replaced your transistor blocking oscillator design with the relay interrupter.

Presumably this will provide much faster transitions / rise time than ever attainable with a blocking oscillator.

I  have experimented with using a large relay such as an old telephone relay (long coil, many turns of fine wire) in an interrupter arrangement. The voltage on break can be quite high on the relay coil and can possibly feed the AV plug directly, negating the need for an ignition coil. One end of the coil is grounded. Eliminate the small cap on the coil for fastest risetime.

I have also played with a set of interrupter contacts directly affixed to the bottom of an ignition coil and activated to break as the coil current builds (like an old free running Model T ignition coil). This can be made adjustable to set frequency etc.

Arrangements such as this are used in the old "Violet Ray" medical instruments of the turn of the last century.


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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #105 on: 2012-07-31, 16:09:15 »
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What charges the cap in an AV-plug is an oscillating field with a huge potential.
It could be capcitive coupling but that wont explain why it performs better with a groundconnection.

The thing here with the singel-wire transmission is that the currentdraw of the circuit does not increase when the output is loaded.
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #106 on: 2012-07-31, 16:37:01 »
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Quote from: ION on 2012-07-31, 16:05:10
Hi Janost

I see you replaced your transistor blocking oscillator design with the relay interrupter.

Presumably this will provide much faster transitions / rise time than ever attainable with a blocking oscillator.

I  have experimented with using a large relay such as an old telephone relay (long coil, many turns of fine wire) in an interrupter arrangement. The voltage on break can be quite high on the relay coil and can possibly feed the AV plug directly, negating the need for an ignition coil. One end of the coil is grounded. Eliminate the small cap on the coil for fastest risetime.

I have also played with a set of interrupter contacts directly affixed to the bottom of an ignition coil and activated to break as the coil current builds (like an old free running Model T ignition coil). This can be made adjustable to set frequency etc.

Arrangements such as this are used in the old "Violet Ray" medical instruments of the turn of the last century.

The advantage of using an ignitioncoil is that it has a ringdown.
With the selfcapitance of HV secondary the ringdown frequency is approx. 2,7KHz.

So its not just a singel HV-pulse but an oscillating field.
That makes a fast charge of the cap in the AV-plug.
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #107 on: 2012-07-31, 16:39:51 »
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The second stage of my replication (without thyristor load circuit) has been completed.

I used a 3 button cell NICAD charged to a capacity of 41mA/hr and this powered the circuit for 3hrs 40m. The final recorded voltage 45 mins before the circuit died was 1.448 and operating frequency was 20.83KHz. The frequency at start of run was around 9KHz. It can be clearly seen from this that a much larger capacity set of NICAD or NiMH cells would run the circuit for a very long time. An AA NICAD's or NiMH battery would be at least 12x the capacity of my button cell battery and if high capacity could be as much as 50x greater! Also, a battery delivering an average current at just a fraction of its say 20hr rating will in effect have a virtual capacity far in excess of its rated capacity, especially when being pulse discharged. It is also clear to me that once the battery voltage has stabilised, very little if any energy is actually charging the battery. It is therefore important when using AA or larger sized batteries with this circuit to ensure that the test run period is sufficiently long enough to see the full discharge curve of the battery in the recorded readings. Just because the voltmeter appears to be holding steady for a long time, don't just assume that the circuit is self-running. Although I am not sure why this happens, I've seen this effect many times in my experiments when using HF / HV circuits and think its a battery vagary and one that often fools experimenters into thinking they have achieved self-running.

I have still to carry out a third test when I will add the thyristor load circuit but so far, although I certainly do not have a self-runner, I feel that this circuit is worthy of further study.

Hoppy
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #108 on: 2012-07-31, 16:47:18 »

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Attached is a paper discussing tests of three 1kw single-wire transmission systems.  While losses are significantly reduced, and very high power can be transmitted, there is no mention of OU.

It uses capacitive and displacement current.  You are measuring conduction current.
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #109 on: 2012-07-31, 16:50:36 »

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Buy me some coffee
Hoppy
If you look at the discharge graph for NiMh battery it's so different to Lithium, if indeed impedance is key then NiMh may not work.

What i would suggest is try a LiFePO4 cell, these are also lithium based but will not burn your house down, they are safe and do not run away with temperature, they are 3.2V operating instead of 3.7 though, but the discharge characteristics should be close enough to assure battery impedance com patability.

See below for NiMh discharge graph, the depleted slope is no where as sharp as the Li ION
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #110 on: 2012-07-31, 17:07:03 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2012-07-31, 16:50:36
Hoppy
If you look at the discharge graph for NiMh battery it's so different to Lithium, if indeed impedance is key then NiMh may not work.

What i would suggest is try a LiFePO4 cell, these are also lithium based but will not burn your house down, they are safe and do not run away with temperature, they are 3.2V operating instead of 3.7 though, but the discharge characteristics should be close enough to assure battery impedance com patability.

See below for NiMh discharge graph, the depleted slope is no where as sharp as the Li ION


Peterae,

Good suggestion. I've tried LiION in previous experiments but not LiFePO4. However, I would like to see some of us try LiION as used by Janost but in a controlled condition where the circuit can be physically protected just in case of ignition. Janost is claiming self-running with LiION and for the sake of a really true replication we should try LiION at the same capacity as Janost uses. Perhaps Janost could post a photo of his battery and state its capacity? He has not reported any problems running with his LiION battery, so with suitable protection, this would be a good way of seeing if the battery chemistry is the key.

Hoppy
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #111 on: 2012-07-31, 17:18:39 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-07-31, 14:30:59
Ok, the schematics has been a bit revised.
Still need som limiting circuit in the feedbackloop to keep the charge in the caps below 5.5v


A simple DC-DC converter circuit like the cheap ones you can get on eBay would probably work.  Some have fairly high efficiency too.  Like here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-DC-DC-Buck-Converter-Step-Down-Module-LM2596-Power-Supply-Output-1-23V-30V-/251066005460?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a74b337d4

A whole $1.74 includes shipping.

A possibly better efficiency one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/LM2596-DC-DC-Converter-4-40V-to-1-5-35V-Step-down-Adjustable-Power-Supply-Module-/150841896858?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item231ee0af9a

for $3.97 including shipping

And this one says 96.7% efficient:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Converter-Buck-Step-Down-Voltage-Module-4-75-24V-to-0-93-18V-2-5A-Output-/280771114482?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415f4335f2

for $4.30
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #112 on: 2012-07-31, 17:23:51 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-07-31, 14:07:14
Yes, I'll do that.
2 parallell supercaps with a 4700uF electrolytic.
It has an ESR of only 4ohms.

That makes a total of 98700uF and the 4700uF taking the ripple current.

The relay runs for about 40 seconds on the fully charged 98700uF cap-bank.

The current draw by the relay ticker is 7.5mA  O0

Correction: it runs for 57 seconds on the charged bank.
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #113 on: 2012-07-31, 17:31:48 »
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #114 on: 2012-07-31, 18:21:00 »
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I cant connect the ignitoncoil like in the schematics.
The HV output is only 22v  :o

If I connect the ignitioncoil parallell to he relay coil there is 10Kv output but the current drawn is 1.4A

The kickback from just the relaycoil is 46v.

Perhaps if I could charge a capacitor with that and dump the capacitor into ignitioncoil primary?

Back to the drawingboard.
   
img  EMdevices
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #115 on: 2012-07-31, 18:35:31 »
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these circuits are really unbalanced to balanced transitions, and so we can eliminate the ground with the schematic below.   This might be advantageous in a mobile application.  If it doesn't work, than perhaps the earth ground is necessary after all.

EM
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #116 on: 2012-07-31, 18:40:12 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-07-31, 17:31:48
Why not a simple 7805 To-92 100mA?


I just thought those DC-DC converters would provide better isolation.  I forget what the max input volts are for a 7805 but those converters can handle up around 40 volts.  And isolation might be important to prevent a runaway if you are really getting some OU here.  I've got some parts ordered....
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #117 on: 2012-07-31, 18:44:25 »

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Quote from: EMdevices on 2012-07-31, 18:35:31
these circuits are really unbalanced to balanced transitions, and so we can eliminate the ground with the schematic below.   This might be advantageous in a mobile application.  If it doesn't work, than perhaps the earth ground is necessary after all.

EM

your schematic is a Delon voltage doubler:

Quote
The Delon circuit uses a bridge topology for voltage doubling. This form of circuit was, at one time, commonly found in cathode ray tube television sets where it was used to provide an e.h.t. voltage supply. Generating voltages in excess of 5 kV with a transformer has safety issues in terms of domestic equipment and in any case is uneconomic. However, black and white television sets required an e.h.t. of 10 kV and colour sets even more. Voltage doublers were used to either double the voltage on an e.h.t winding on the mains transformer or were applied to the waveform on the line flyback coils.[7]

The circuit consists of two half-wave peak detectors, functioning in exactly the same way as the peak detector cell in the Greinacher circuit. Each of the two peak detector cells operates on opposite half-cycles of the incoming waveform. Since their outputs are in series, the output is twice the peak input voltage.

Janost,

Can't you just drive the ignition coil with a transistor or FET?
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #118 on: 2012-07-31, 18:52:06 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2012-07-31, 18:44:25
Can't you just drive the ignition coil with a transistor or FET?[/font]

That was my intention, just wanted a quick testcircuit with a relay.
If I rewire the relay so that it shorts itself instead of breaking and put that in series with the ignitioncoil it should work better.
But it needs the capacitor over the relaycoil or it will burn the contacts.
And a shuntresistor to the ignitioncoil to be able to lower the currentdraw.

Just using the relaykickback of 46v and have away with the ignitioncoil could work as a Lead-Acid batterycharger.
As the current used is only 7.5mA it could possibly selfrun if the relaycoil is grounded.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #119 on: 2012-07-31, 19:16:49 »
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3rd revision  :)
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #120 on: 2012-07-31, 19:25:38 »

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Quote from: janost on 2012-07-31, 18:52:06
That was my intention, just wanted a quick testcircuit with a relay.
If I rewire the relay so that it shorts itself instead of breaking and put that in series with the ignitioncoil it should work better.
But it needs the capacitor over the relaycoil or it will burn the contacts.
And a shuntresistor to the ignitioncoil to be able to lower the currentdraw.

Just using the relaykickback of 46v and have away with the ignitioncoil could work as a Lead-Acid batterycharger.
As the current used is only 7.5mA it could possibly selfrun if the relaycoil is grounded.


If you want to self-run, then you have to attach to the wheel-work of Nature.  Vacuum constituents are in constant rotation: continuous, never ending, free for the taking.  Several appear to have accomplished this, but Harold Aspden explains it well.

Here is a link the the thread on this site for Aspden's concentric capacitor device.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1023.msg15523#msg15523

He calculated output in the kW range from a bench-top device:
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #121 on: 2012-07-31, 19:42:31 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2012-07-31, 19:25:38
If you want to self-run, then you have to attach to the wheel-work of Nature.  Vacuum constituents are in constant rotation: continuous, never ending, free for the taking.  Several appear to have accomplished this, but Harold Aspden explains it well.

Here is a link the the thread on this site for Aspden's concentric capacitor device.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1023.msg15523#msg15523

He calculated output in the kW range from a bench-top device:


It doesnt really have to selfrun.
It is enough if it runs a couple of months on a battery generating a substantial amount of power during that time.

If you are into coils and kickback the kickback pulse will draw electrons out of a ground connection if the coil is grounded.

The potential changes so abrupt that the electrons have nowhere else to go than up the wire.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #122 on: 2012-07-31, 19:48:06 »
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And my first electronpump stopped last night after 13days and the Li-Ion cell reached 2.79v
2 weeks is a long time generating power to a parallell load.

The problem with the blocking-osc is it's enormous currentdraw when the transistor is conducting.
If that could be reduced it would work better.

However after the Li-Ion cell being disconnected for 4hours it is running again with a cellvoltage of 2.81v  O0
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #123 on: 2012-07-31, 19:59:47 »

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It takes about 20kW to operate and EV. 
5kW is a good average for a home.  Much more with electric heating or air conditioning.

Our energy requirements are enormous.
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #124 on: 2012-07-31, 20:00:45 »
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Quote from: Hoppy on 2012-07-31, 17:07:03
Peterae,

Good suggestion. I've tried LiION in previous experiments but not LiFePO4. However, I would like to see some of us try LiION as used by Janost but in a controlled condition where the circuit can be physically protected just in case of ignition. Janost is claiming self-running with LiION and for the sake of a really true replication we should try LiION at the same capacity as Janost uses. Perhaps Janost could post a photo of his battery and state its capacity? He has not reported any problems running with his LiION battery, so with suitable protection, this would be a good way of seeing if the battery chemistry is the key.

Hoppy

Ordinary alkaline batterys have the same properties as a Li-Ion however they are not rechargable.

But you could have the battery feeding trough a diode parallell with a cap feeding trough a diode and charging only the cap.

That would work greate.

Like this circuit.
   
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