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OverUnity Research > Benches > PhysicsProf (Moderator: PhysicsProf) > Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing
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Author Topic: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing  (Read 180659 times)
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img  Peterae
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #75 on: 2012-07-31, 10:57:04 »

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I have led careful measurements on this type of device.

ex the only way to find out if a device works is to have it and do tests, we don't know where the extra energy is coming from because we don't have the device, why would you even bother speculating.

You just cannot say an individual part does not show OU, it's the combined parts that may exhibit ou in a fashion we do not yet understand.

EDIT if you start trashing this thread like you have done before with other threads, without giving us a chance to talk to Jan, i will put you on Read only, I want you to understand we need to work on this device until we reach a scientific conclusion.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #76 on: 2012-07-31, 11:04:50 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2012-07-31, 10:37:30
ex

We have already established the impedance of the battery is important, so why would a capacitor work, i do not see why it would, the impedance of the capacitor is totally different,

If you think that it is the point and it is important, what was the impedance of the battery?
Why do you presume that none capacitor could have a similar impedance?
What must be the impedance for the system to work?
 
Quote
for your last post to be correct you obviously can show me 2 charts, one for LI ION battery showing impedance at 2.81V and the same impedance for a cap, so let's have your charts or are you deliberately missleading people.

Your accusation of misleading is a shame. What is misleading people is to claim overunity without giving experimental evidence.
Why do you suppose that the battery would be recharged?

Quote
ex how can a device work without further depleting a battery not be overunity?

I don't know. But what I know is that there are already hundreds of devices alleged to work without further depleting a battery (remember Bedini 20 years ago), and nobody has been able to duplicate a single one!
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #77 on: 2012-07-31, 11:05:04 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-07-31, 10:19:41
Wrong answer  :).
Capacitors sized for high currents, such those that we can find in switching power supplies, present a very low dynamical impedance and can provide higher current pulses than li-Ion batteries. You ignore the state of the art. The second rule that you ignore, is that a voltage measurement doesn't reflect the charge of a battery but it reflects the charge of a capacitor. So if the device doesn't work with capacitors, the  reason is that there is not overunity.



I'll put 2 of my 47000uF supercaps in parallell.
The can take 700mA ripple each and makes a total of 94000uF.

I'm not claming any overunity just an interresting observation.

And if it would run 1 year on a battery while generating power to a load that is still very good.

Because you can put more AV-plugs and transformers in parallell and it does not effect the runtime and still generates power for several loads.

A heatpump is not overunity even though it has a COP 3, you still have to feed it power for it to work.
Yet it is a very usefull invention.

You use power to move power from the ambient.
   
img  Peterae
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #78 on: 2012-07-31, 11:13:23 »

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I do feel we need to get rid of the battery, but because caps are not working, maybe there's a way of making a cap look much more like a battery impedance, i need to look at this a bit more maybe someone with simulation experience would be able to answer.
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #79 on: 2012-07-31, 11:16:30 »

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OK i found an equivalent circuit for a LI Ion battery
http://www.mpoweruk.com/performance.htm

EDIT i am still trying to find an impedance / voltage chart.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #80 on: 2012-07-31, 11:18:44 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2012-07-31, 11:13:23
I do feel we need to get rid of the battery, but because caps are not working, maybe there's a way of making a cap look much more like a battery impedance, i need to look at this a bit more maybe someone with simulation experience would be able to answer.

The thing with batterys is that if you load them the voltage goes down and if you remove the load the voltage goes up a bit again.
This does not happen with caps. If you remove the load the voltage remain the same.

A battery is a chemical reaction and caps are not.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #81 on: 2012-07-31, 11:24:41 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2012-07-31, 10:57:04
ex the only way to find out if a device works is to have it and do tests,
...

Did you build one?
1) There is no more reason to assume it works, than to assume it doesn't work. But a forum is supposed to be the place for discussions about analyses of the device according to the common knowledge of the field, so all opinions shoud be expressed provided that arguments are given.
2) To test a device is not enough: if the test doesn't work, the past showed us that anything is taken as pretext to explain why only the original setup would work (the impedance of the duplication is not the exact impedance, the load is 600.01 ohm instead of 600.00 ohm, the battery is from Siemens and not Philips and so on...). Sorry to not be so naive.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #82 on: 2012-07-31, 11:29:50 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2012-07-31, 11:16:30
...

...

Well done. Perfect confrmation that a Li-Ion battery can be replaced by a capacitor from a dynamic viewpoint.


   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #83 on: 2012-07-31, 11:31:54 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-07-31, 11:18:44
...
A battery is a chemical reaction and caps are not.

That is why a voltage measurement doesn't reflect the charge.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #84 on: 2012-07-31, 11:35:39 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-07-31, 11:24:41
Did you build one?
1) There is no more reason to assume it works, than to assume it doesn't work. But a forum is supposed to be the place for discussions about analyses of the device according to the common knowledge of the field, so all opinions shoud be expressed provided that arguments are given.
2) To test a device is not enough: if the test doesn't work, the past showed us that anything is taken as pretext to explain why only the original setup would work (the impedance of the duplication is not the exact impedance, the load is 600.01 ohm instead of 600.00 ohm, the battery is from Siemens and not Philips and so on...). Sorry to not be so naive.

So being naive you would say that a heatpump also does not work?
You put in 1 unit of electricity and out comes 3 units of heat?
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #85 on: 2012-07-31, 11:50:29 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-07-31, 11:35:39
So being naive you would say that a heatpump also does not work?
You put in 1 unit of electricity and out comes 3 units of heat?

A heatpump is perfectly explainable according to the current laws of physics. Unlike your device which is a perpetual motion, a selfsustaining heatpump doesn't exist. Maybe a Maxwell demon is possible, nevertheless we have not yet a strong experimental evidence.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #86 on: 2012-07-31, 11:52:58 »
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This is why my blocking-osc would not run with a supercap.

The diagram is the ESR of my Panasonic 0.047F supercap.
It shows that the ESR is 50ohms.

When my blocking oscillator is down on 1.41v the cap can sustain a current of only 28mA.
And the transistor pulls 500mA in each pulse.

There you go  ;D
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #87 on: 2012-07-31, 11:55:54 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-07-31, 11:50:29
A heatpump is perfectly explainable according to the current laws of physics. Unlike your device which is a perpetual motion, a selfsustaining heatpump doesn't exist. Maybe a Maxwell demon is possible, nevertheless we have not yet a strong experimental evidence.

A heatpump pumps heat from the ambient outside (Air/ground) into the house.

What if my device does the same?
Pumps electrons from the ambient?
   
img  Peterae
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #88 on: 2012-07-31, 12:03:15 »

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Well done Jan for finding that impedance this clearly shows that a capacitor is nothing like a Li Ion battery, which i am very surprised that ex did not know this as it is basic electronics.
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #89 on: 2012-07-31, 12:17:21 »

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so it maybe possible to use low ESR capacitors in parallel to your super cap to lower the impedance, and to adjust this it would be possible to add more in parallel to lower more or in series to give higher impedance, this may allow a margin of adjustment.
I am pretty sure Li Ion are Milli Ohm impedance's.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #90 on: 2012-07-31, 13:04:47 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-07-31, 11:52:58
This is why my blocking-osc would not run with a supercap.

The diagram is the ESR of my Panasonic 0.047F supercap.
It shows that the ESR is 50ohms.

When my blocking oscillator is down on 1.41v the cap can sustain a current of only 28mA.
And the transistor pulls 500mA in each pulse.

There you go  ;D


You don't need a supercap. As each cycle of the signal is identical to the others and the battery is alleged to be charged, each cycle must contribute equally to the charge. Therefore a capacitor able to power only some cycles is required, as it would be recharged at each cycle (so no need of a long time constant). Some thousands of µF would be far enough, with in parallel a lower HF cap to deal with signal transitions, provided that the capacitor is sized for high currents.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #91 on: 2012-07-31, 13:26:14 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2012-07-31, 12:03:15
Well done Jan for finding that impedance this clearly shows that a capacitor is nothing like a Li Ion battery, which i am very surprised that ex did not know this as it is basic electronics.

You provide yourself an equivalent schematics of a Li-Ion battery, based on a capacitor, and after, you say that "a capacitor is nothing like a Li Ion battery". It is terrible  C.C.
Sorry, not much time now to correct all the mistakes from people not skilled in electronics. Too much work and I'm on holidays, typing this message from a chalet in the mountains of the swiss border at an altitude near 1000 mtrs. The wonderful view on the landscape helps me to put into perspective all the trivial or impolite remarks that I read here and there.  :) Time now for the ramble. Good afternoon.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #92 on: 2012-07-31, 13:46:13 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-07-31, 13:04:47
You don't need a supercap. As each cycle of the signal is identical to the others and the battery is alleged to be charged, each cycle must contribute equally to the charge. Therefore a capacitor able to power only some cycles is required, as it would be recharged at each cycle (so no need of a long time constant). Some thousands of µF would be far enough, with in parallel a lower HF cap to deal with signal transitions, provided that the capacitor is sized for high currents.

It have to sustain as many cycles that is required for the cap in the AV-plug to charge.

I have 15000uF 63v electrolytics that can sustain 14A ripplecurrent at 50Hz.

Maybe one of those will work?

The problem is that they have the size of a sodacan  :o
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #93 on: 2012-07-31, 13:57:41 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-07-31, 13:26:14
You provide yourself an equivalent schematics of a Li-Ion battery, based on a capacitor, and after, you say that "a capacitor is nothing like a Li Ion battery". It is terrible  C.C.
Sorry, not much time now to correct all the mistakes from people not skilled in electronics. Too much work and I'm on holidays, typing this message from a chalet in the mountains of the swiss border at an altitude near 1000 mtrs. The wonderful view on the landscape helps me to put into perspective all the trivial or impolite remarks that I read here and there.  :) Time now for the ramble. Good afternoon.

Come down from your high heels  ;)
Even NASA have experimented with AV-plugs to pull charges from empty space so I couldnt care less about your electronic skills.

Sitting on an alptop wasting money on the 3G network just to tells us something doesnt work  :o
What kind of worldsaver are you?

I am an electronics engineer and even so I cant explain some of the findings people here are doing.

If its just capacitive coupling then explain what charges an Avramenko-plug when its sitting in deepspace?
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #94 on: 2012-07-31, 14:01:40 »

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Jan you can parallel a super cap with a low ESR cap, the super cap will trickle power into the low esr cap, the low esr cap will be supplying the fast burst of power and be charged by the Super cap.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #95 on: 2012-07-31, 14:07:14 »
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Yes, I'll do that.
2 parallell supercaps with a 4700uF electrolytic.
It has an ESR of only 4ohms.

That makes a total of 98700uF and the 4700uF taking the ripple current.
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #96 on: 2012-07-31, 14:16:09 »
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I think there is an advantage of using battery instead of capacitors.  Let's say you throw a ball of paper.  If you use all your might, the ball get a good distance.  If you use minimal power, the ball get lesser distance.  However, comparing the input to output, you rather use minimal power because it is more efficient.  

It may be possible that the battery voltage drop because it is operating inefficient at higher current.  

 
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #97 on: 2012-07-31, 14:30:59 »
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Ok, the schematics has been a bit revised.
Still need som limiting circuit in the feedbackloop to keep the charge in the caps below 5.5v
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #98 on: 2012-07-31, 14:38:39 »
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It would still need a battery to get started.
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #99 on: 2012-07-31, 14:48:23 »

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Quote from: janost on 2012-07-31, 13:57:41
Even NASA have experimented with AV-plugs to pull charges from empty space so I couldnt care less about your electronic skills.

Do you have a reference for NASA's use of AV-plugs?

Quote from: janost on 2012-07-31, 13:57:41
If its just capacitive coupling then explain what charges an Avramenko-plug when its sitting in deepspace?

Again, do you have a reference for this claim?
   
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