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Author Topic: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing  (Read 180709 times)

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I personally would replace the led load with a bulb, you can get really small low power bulbs.
   
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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Woopy has LED lights running (load) and is drawing power from two NiMH batteries in series for the power input-- and ALSO THESE SAME BATTERIES ARE BEING CHARGED, at the same time.  Woopy notes the current draw, yet the batteries' voltage is staying constant at 2.50V for 10 hours (he notes).  So this is what is meant by a self-runner; so far anyway.  Woopy says he will check it in the morning.

It isn't a self-runner yet, not by a long shot.

It's disappointing that folks keep repeating the same error and making the same assumptions over and over without learning from past experiments.

There is virtually no "load" on the circuit at all. Those super-brights will light slightly at the mere whiff of voltage. Put a real load on there, like a resistor! Woopy will find that his battery voltage will decrease given enough time.


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Indeed Poynt

Wow thanks for that Hoppy.

Well it should be pretty interesting, it looks like Whoopy is using between 30-80 mA(not really a good scale meter)
If the battery's are 2500mAH then at best i would expect it to last for about 80 hours or 3-4 days, with NiMH i would expect the battery voltage to hold up pretty well but later show a fast decline as he approaches depletion.

Although i have not included recharge rate so it could be a lot more, if we were to say he was getting 75% recharge power then it could last as long as 13 Days which could be unlucky for some  8)

Offcourse i am also hoping it works forever  ;)
   

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Quote
during the night, the battery lost 3 millivolts (down from 2.50 volts at 24.00 yesterday to 2.47 volts at 8.00 this morning

Oh one other thing i make that a 30mV drop not 3mV
   
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It isn't a self-runner yet, not by a long shot.

It's disappointing that folks keep repeating the same error and making the same assumptions over and over without learning from past experiments.

There is virtually no "load" on the circuit at all. Those super-brights will light slightly at the mere whiff of voltage. Put a real load on there, like a resistor! Woopy will find that his battery voltage will decrease given enough time.

Agreed. Time will tell. Woopy may find that when he removes the battery and lets it rest that the lost capacity will be more easily seen when applied to a resistive load. I have seen this effect when charging LA batteries with HV many times and no longer get very excited when my voltmeter shows no change for ages. However, we should not dismiss this one out of hand, so I will build this and report in due course.

Hoppy
   

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Indeed Hoppy
A good fun circuit to knock up and test, i would try to get some images of Janost's build just to make sure you can verify the components used, Specially the transformers, i would love to see some waveforms during operation to see if anything special is happened on his build as well  O0
Put a resistive load on the back end and get an idea of whats happening power wise, build the correct load circuit to be sure Whoppy is not killing the effect.

I remember when EM had a circuit going using the 2N2222 which looked promising at the time, i replicated that and the waveforms did appear to be giving back more, but we were never able to loop it, i like this circuit and on Whoppys scope shot there are 2 resonant frequencies which i love to see.
   
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Itsusable has also posted a replication. Thanks Itsu for building and posting!

 He sees the voltage on the batteries' voltage dropping over a few hours...  Some variations from the original Janost cct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLzHlN6JoiQ&feature=em-uploademail

   
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Janost has confirmed that he uses a flouro starter gas tube with the RFI cap removed.

Hoppy
   

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Cheers Hoppy
Well that could be a game changer, not sure how it could work though

If only someone could get some waveforms and pictures anything can help.
   
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Itsu does another vid -- still not a self-runner, but interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94FE59Nt6Sw&feature=em-uploademail

And earlier today Janost posted at EF:

Quote
My prototype has been running for over a week now and the cell has a steady voltage of 2,81v.
Last edited by janost : Today at 03:18 AM.
[/b]

Thanks to Itsu and Janost.
   

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Well he's certainly running on empty
   

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Most excellent point Peterae.

Having knowledge which enables cell/battery voltage interpretation
is beneficial when striving to establish truth.


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Well he's certainly running on empty


Looking at your curve, Peter, it appears that at 2.81 V the curve is quite steep.  Thus, I do not understand how the device could run at this voltage for a week (as he says) if there was any load, which there is -- can you explain?    

It is true that replication efforts by Woopy and Itsu show a much more rapid voltage drop.

In any case, I'm awaiting parts I've ordered for my build -- and I look forward to more data.
« Last Edit: 2012-07-29, 06:58:28 by PhysicsProf »
   

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Looking at your curve, Peter, it appears that at 2.81 V the curve is quite steep.  Thus, I do not understand how the device could run at this voltage for a week (as he says) if there was any load, which there is -- can you explain?    

the only way it would stay at 2.81 is for no current to be drawn, he is on a part of the curve that is very rapidly movable, he must be generating exactly the same power he is using for it not to change by 1mV, i find this hard to swallow, he is balancing on a tightrope without a professed wobble, the question remains what was his starting voltage?

If it stayed between 3.2-3.3 Volts i would be more inclined to believe it, you have the ability up here to be using power without moving the voltage around, to put it in another way, in his current operating mode he should be able to disconnect the battery totally and it should still run the same  C.C maybe with a small cap.

Now if his starting voltage was 3.3V then he would have run out of power by now if he was on 2.81 yesterday, I am expecting bad news from him  O0 maybe it's too late for him to save face.

EDIT
There is the possibility that the device prefers 2.81 Volts, maybe below this voltage it generates more power and above it generates less and therefore has found a balancing point, it could be a point where the battery impedance is such to cause this.

DOUBLE EDIT

I see Janost is reading here now, that's good thanks Itsu.

If you want an account here pm me at Peterae 'at' overunityresearch.com

Yes i understand now the starter is being run at low power and therefore the bi-metal strip is not operating.
Can you please state your battery start voltage so we can clear that up, any chance of scoped waveforms.

It's a fun circuit, thanks for sharing with everyone.
« Last Edit: 2012-07-29, 11:29:58 by Peterae »
   
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Hi
I'm the inventor of the circuit so I can answer some questions.

The easiest way to build the circuit is to buy a tennisracket bugzapper and scrap it.
Remove all parts on the secondary part of the HV-board so that there is only the bare secondary winding left.
Any diodes, capacitors, shunts and bleedresistors should be removed
The HV-capacitor can be reused in the AV-plug.

One end of the bugzapper secondary MUST be grounded and it also have to be the correct end so that it is the kickback pulse that is feed to the AV-plug.

Then I used an ordinary wallwart transformer as stepdown, in my case a 230v to 9v 300mA, 3VA.

The GDT is a fluorotube-starter with the RFI-cap removed and all diodes are 1N4007.

I used a 18650 Li-Ion cell 2200mAh.
This as you know can be dangerous if you dont know what you are doing so please use any other type of rechargable cell.
But I think that the Li-Ion impendance or ESR has something to do with the circuit working because I have not got it to work with a 47000uF supercap.
The currentdraw when the transistor is conducting is an enormous 500mA in a short pulse.

I have the 2 diodes connected in series as a voltagedrop because the blocking-osc is drawing 1.2A in every pulse if powered on 3v and will kill it self in the process if run continously.

My starting voltage was a 3.99v, 90% charged Li-Ion.
The voltage kept dropping by 0,001v/min and I thought it would not work.

But also as the voltage kept dropping the currentdraw also dropped.
And at 2.81v it stopped dropping, the circuit draws the same current as it delivers.

This means 1.41v after the diode drop to the blocking-osc.

I also discovered that it works even better if its running on one battery and charging another.
It actually charging more than it consumes.

It also charges Lead-Acid cells even better than Li-Ion, NiMh or NiCd cells.
This could be the nature of Lead-Acid cells as they like to be pulse-charged.

I'm currently in the process of building a larger version using a 400VA transformer as stepdown and I have changed the AV-plug/GDT circuit a bit to increase the current in the stepdown primary without overloading the fluoro-starter/GDT.

The circuit below uses the GDT to fire into the gate of an SCR that discharges the full charge of the capacitor in the AV-plug into the primary and not just below the GDT firing voltage.

« Last Edit: 2012-07-29, 16:09:10 by janost »
   

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Welcome janost

Thanks for clarifying the start condition of the battery, well looks good that it has balanced, let's hope if keeps going OK.

I wish i could join in to build it, but my bench has a large project right now with many months so far.
I am sure there will be people here trying to replicate.  O0

Is there any chance of putting up a few scope shots, just in case there's something special you are doing to help people make sure their operating mode is the same.

Also can i ask what you are using for your load.
   
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I have a dso nano oscilloscope but I dont have a memorycard for it.

But I'll try to take pictures of the screen.
   

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Thankyou

Much appreciated.
   
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Here is an easy mockup of my super electronpump using an ignitioncoil and a relayticker with a timing cap to generate 50-100Hz.

I know the relay sounds awfull and will probably break after a couple of hours.
But it is very easy to build using simple parts around a 6v SPDT relay, an ignitioncoil and a 400VA stepdown transformer.

The output is 400watts and will charge a Lead-Acid battery and will selfrun with a currentdraw of only 20mA.

This one will most likely run with my 47000uF supercap.

   

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This is what you are working on now.  O0

Looks good, that would be a powerful device, we could all do with a working unit like this once operation is confirmed.

   
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Yes this one sounds great.  Can you give any specs on the SCR? 
   
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Perhaps it needs a capacitor over the primary of the stepdown to make it ring or resonate.
Or a diode backwards over the SCR so it resonates with the cap in the AV-plug.

I need to scope it first.
   
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I use a BTY-79 screwtype 10amp SCR but only because I had it in my junkbox.
Anything that can handle 350v 2A will work.

The GDT is still an FL-starter because it's cheap and easy to find.
In this config connected to the gate ther is no load on it.
   
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The coils resistance is 90ohm and the ignition-coil is 3ohm.
That makes 93ohm and 63mA on 6volts.

But that is on all the time.
When pulsed the current drawn is divided by the pulse-ratio.

The ratio is about 33% so the current drawn is 20mA.
   
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