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img  PhysicsProf
Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « on: 2012-07-25, 15:56:50 »
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On page 229 of the huge "Don Smith" thread at EF,  Janost posts what he claims is a "self-runner."  I think it is worth taking a look, doing replications and testing. 
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4864-donald-smith-devices-too-good-true-229.html

Posted by Janost (see circuit below).

Quote
It is a stepup-stepdown converter.

The first transformer generates about 800volt pulses into an Avramenko plug. It charges the 630nF cap using a single wire.

When the gas discharge tube breakdown voltage, 200volt, is reached the cap discharges into stepdown transformer primary and transforms the voltage down and the current up on the secondary.

The GDT rate is about 20Hz.

The secondary is rectified and charges the 3,6v Li-Ion cell that feeds the supply voltage for the HV-blocking oscillator.

It works without a grounding-rod but the battery eventually runs out.
When it is grounded the glow from the GDT is stronger and the secondary of the stepdown generates a higher voltage with more current.

The second AV-plug with the 5,6uF cap is a way to tap the circuit and use a load without disturbing the selffeeding loop.

And Janost further:
Quote
The caps in the AV-plugs won't charge with a lower voltage.

Yes, the 5K pot sets the pump rate through the load.
The SCR fires when the gate voltage exceed 3volt and discharges the cap through the load.
It's like a low voltage sparkgap.

The secondary delivers 13volt and 400mA shorted.
The blocking-oscillator draws about 70mA.

It is selfrunning but only if it's grounded and I can't explain why.

And he adds:
Quote
janost janost is offline
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Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 44
The transformers are stock.
The stepup comes from a bugzapper and the stepdown is a 230v to 9v wallwart.

The GDT is just a flurocent-tube lighter with the supression cap cut out.
The exact breakdown voltage is 196v.

The GDT actually pulses the primary of the stepdown but on the secondary there is a ringdown happening with the transformers self-resonant frequency.
That is why I only half-rectified it instead of a bridge to keep the ringing.

I have burned out a couple of wallwart transformer running them with just a sparkgap before I figured out a GDT and the AV-plug performs excellent and the GDT fires before the primary winding breaks down.

The AV-plug does not put any strain on the stepup secondary as it charges passively.

I guess that the caps won't charge on a lower voltage because of leakage in the diodes.
We have 230v lines in my country and if connect the AV-plug to the livewire of a wallplug it only charges to about 6,5volts.

More from Janost:
Quote
My circuit proves that you dont need real HV like ignition-coils or MOTs for this to work.

My theory is that it is actually the sparkgap and the ground-rod that does the magic.

Perhaps also the resonant ringing in the stepdown transformer.

Clearly Janost has actually built and tested:
Quote
If I grabb the grounding end of the coil with my hand (no chocks felt) the output is stronger so yes, an antenna could work.

If i do that I guess it is pulling the electrons out of my body and the ground I'm standing on.

It is extremly important that the HV-coil is connected the correct way around so that the kickback pulse is positive in respect to the ground.

The other way around and the cap wont charge.

This is really interesting stuff.

 Anyone want to try a build??  Comments?
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #1 on: 2012-07-25, 16:10:18 »
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More posts, more info (from the EF discussion) -- clearly Janost is using available parts; does not look like a difficult build, although the exact 230V "wall wart" might be hard for me to get :

Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave45 View Post
What are the amp specs on the wall wart you used.
Thank you for sharing.
Janost:  3VA, 230v in, 9v 300mA out.

Gyula contributes:
Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by gyula View Post
Hi Janost,

Have you tried to optimize this circuit? I mean for instance the 40mA current draw by the blocking oscillator sounds high to me, though it may be needed to drive the rest of the circuit. So increasing the 1 kOhm base resistor could influence the circuit gradually towards the no-go self sustaining state (with ground attached)? Of course, increasing the 1 kOhm surely changes the oscillator frequency, a good thing to keep this in mind. What is the approximate oscillator frequency? though I guess it is not critical.
Regarding the 1N4007 diodes, they were manufactured for 50/60 Hz and if the oscillator runs in the several kHz range or even higher, you may wish to use fast or ultrafast diodes like the UF4007 or similar. The UF4000 diode series has the same current and voltage spec like the old 1N4000 series but the switching time is under 100 nanosec, versus the millisec speed of the 1N4000s.
The 630nF could be assembled from several paralleled smaller values, this way the resultant equivalent loss resistance gets reduced.
Maybe you could connect a capacitor (small value, say some ten pF) in parallel with the step-down transformer's primary input coil to enhance ringing? if it is beneficial of course.
I also ask the ground leg of the secondary coil of the step-up transformer where you show the ground road is not connected also to the negative point of the 3.6V battery? No need for such connection? just because of the Avramenko plug?

Thanks, Gyula
Janost: Yes, it can be optimized.

Janost, today:
Quote
In my case the wallwart is 230v and gives a 9v output.

If you would pulse a 120v walwart with 196v pulses, the output would be doubled, 26v in my schematics.

I don't think there would be any problems feeding the primary 196v pulses and the winding can take it.

That would then be a 13:1 transformer overvolted by 63%.

Janost is evidently in Sweden.  He is to be commended for his willingness to share and answer questions.
His first post on this build of his was on 22 July 2012...  No replications yet that I know of.

I'm not quite sure of how to build the "gas discharge tube GDT" that he talks about -- how did he get this from a fluorescent tube?
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #2 on: 2012-07-25, 17:12:43 »

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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #3 on: 2012-07-25, 17:18:34 »
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He talks about removing the cap from the discharge tube which fits the description of an ordinary 2-pin flouro starter. These are dead cheap and pull apart easily.

Hoppy
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #4 on: 2012-07-25, 17:19:35 »
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Peterae beat me to it but yes I think that is what he is using and those are fairly cheap.  Basically just a sealed spark gap.  
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #5 on: 2012-07-25, 19:02:20 »

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They are also used in older telecoms equipment to protect against lightning strikes, there can be caps in circuit as well, also were used in TVs to protect against tube flashover although later TVs just use an air gap for this.
There are now semiconductor 2 pin crowbars that are used in the telecoms instead.

EDIT
OK i found a circuit of as fluorescent starter and if he did indeed remove the cap then this does look more likely
If that is what he used, i seem to remember these are not spark gap's they use bi metal strips to form a thermal switch but don't quote me as i am using information i remember from years ago.

DOUBLE EDIT  >:-)
I just seen this under the image i posted
Quote
Switch (bi-metallic thermostat)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp

so it's nothing like a spark gap, these switch at a very low frequency 5-6Hz
There's no way this would work surely.


BS alert, if he really says he used a fluorescent starter as the gap, then he really has not built a worker, a lot of people seem to believe that it's a spark gap, but when you try to use them as a spark gap you find they wont work, i think he is telling porky's that he has this working.
« Last Edit: 2012-07-25, 19:44:46 by Peterae »
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #6 on: 2012-07-25, 20:20:31 »
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Does Janost have this circuit runing in closed loop?   Is that what he is claiming?  I see a 3.6 V Li battery in his circuit?
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #7 on: 2012-07-25, 20:41:06 »
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I believe he is saying that if the ground is attached it will self charge the battery and also provide an output through the avremenko part of the circuit.  Without the ground attached he said the battery will eventually run down. 
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #8 on: 2012-07-25, 21:16:12 »

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Well that would be another no no, never use Li Ion batteries in any pulsed charged circuits, these batteries are time bombs, you need to adhere to strict over and under charging conditions, if not the house could burn down or worst it could blow in your face.
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #9 on: 2012-07-25, 22:53:08 »
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More info is needed on what he using for the HV 1:50 transformer All he says is that it came from a bug zapper.

The commonly used flouro starter is a small gas (neon) filled glass tube with electrodes and an RFI cap across it, so it should strike with enough voltage across it. Janost quotes 196V in his case.

Hoppy
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #10 on: 2012-07-26, 10:41:44 »

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Hoppy excuse my ignorance then, are you really sure a fluorescent starter is just a neon with a cap across it, because when i look up exactly what it is on the net it is definitely not just a neon.

For instance look here as well
http://home.howstuffworks.com/question337.htm
Quote
The fluorescent starter is a time-delay switch

Quote
The glow tube incorporates a switch which is normally open. When power is applied, a glow discharge takes place which heats a bimetal contact. A second or so later, the contacts close and provide current to the fluorescent filaments. Since the glow is extinguished, there is no longer any heating of the bimetal and the contacts open

This is why the tube blinks when first switched on, it's a low Hz time delay switch from what i see, and could not be used in place of a spark gap.
Maybe there are different variants ?
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #11 on: 2012-07-26, 11:59:25 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012-07-25, 16:10:18
More posts, more info (from the EF discussion) -- clearly Janost is using available parts; does not look like a difficult build, although the exact 230V "wall wart" might be hard for me to get :

Gyula contributes:
Janost, today:
Janost is evidently in Sweden.  He is to be commended for his willingness to share and answer questions.
His first post on this build of his was on 22 July 2012...  No replications yet that I know of.

I'm not quite sure of how to build the "gas discharge tube GDT" that he talks about -- how did he get this from a fluorescent tube?

Hi Steven,

Thanks for including my post here from the other forum.

You can get a power adapter with universal 100V - 240V AC input (50/60 Hz) with a fix 9V DC output here (but surely you can have at other places too):
http://www.apogeekits.com/switch_mode_power_adapter_9v_400ma.htm  
or for  switchable, several DC outputs here: http://www.apogeekits.com/switching_power_adapter.htm
these camoe from this link: http://www.apogeekits.com/ac-dc_switching_power_supplies.htm

Regarding his 1:50 transformer, in photo flash circuits you can find such small transformers to get the 300-400V AC output and then you can use voltage multiplier if needed. HEre is a hint: http://www.increa.com/reverse/dc/

rgds, Gyula
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #12 on: 2012-07-26, 12:04:39 »
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Hi Peterae,

As I commented in my last post, it does have electrodes and these operate as you quoted within a gas filled glass tube, but some current will flow when a glow discharge takes place before the contacts close in Janost's cct.

Hoppy
   
img  wings
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #13 on: 2012-07-26, 12:51:09 »
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"The commonly used flouro starter is a small gas (neon) filled glass tube with electrodes and an RFI cap across it, so it should strike with enough voltage across it. Janost quotes 196V in his case.

Hoppy"

multipactor effect in radioactive environment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipactor_effect

http://www.scribd.com/doc/44800637/5/Fluorescent-lamp-starters-and-other-electronic-devices
 
Fluorescent lamp starters and other electronic devices
The quantity of radioactive material used in such devices is very small and thepotential for external exposure is insignificant.
There is some potential forinternal exposure following breakage of the devices, either accidentally or ondisposal.
It is understood that an assessment of radiation dose from all types of electronic device manufactured in Germany was made and estimated doses tomembers of the public were found to be less than 10 µSv per year.

http://ec.europa.eu/energy/nuclear/transport/doc/final-version-study1.pdf

Fluorescent lamp starters contain Krypton-85 to ionize the starter filling gas. The starter works
basically as a switch which applies the voltage to the fluorescent tube after sufficient
preheating to allow the tube to conduct an electric current. Commercially available fluorescent
lamp starters (glow switches) contain on average about 150 - 250 Bq per unit of Kr-85,
although Kr-85 inventories in excess of 1000 Bq per unit can be excluded in practice. Many
millions of these devices are manufactured and distributed annually in EU Member States.
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #14 on: 2012-07-26, 14:28:53 »
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Quote from: wings on 2012-07-26, 12:51:09
"The commonly used flouro starter is a small gas (neon) filled glass tube with electrodes and an RFI cap across it, so it should strike with enough voltage across it. Janost quotes 196V in his case.

Hoppy"

multipactor effect in radioactive environment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipactor_effect

http://www.scribd.com/doc/44800637/5/Fluorescent-lamp-starters-and-other-electronic-devices
 
Fluorescent lamp starters and other electronic devices
The quantity of radioactive material used in such devices is very small and thepotential for external exposure is insignificant.
There is some potential forinternal exposure following breakage of the devices, either accidentally or ondisposal.
It is understood that an assessment of radiation dose from all types of electronic device manufactured in Germany was made and estimated doses tomembers of the public were found to be less than 10 µSv per year.

http://ec.europa.eu/energy/nuclear/transport/doc/final-version-study1.pdf

Fluorescent lamp starters contain Krypton-85 to ionize the starter filling gas. The starter works
basically as a switch which applies the voltage to the fluorescent tube after sufficient
preheating to allow the tube to conduct an electric current. Commercially available fluorescent
lamp starters (glow switches) contain on average about 150 - 250 Bq per unit of Kr-85,
although Kr-85 inventories in excess of 1000 Bq per unit can be excluded in practice. Many
millions of these devices are manufactured and distributed annually in EU Member States.

http://multipactor.esa.int/whatis.html

"The availability of free electrons to start of the release of secondary electrons.
(In space, free electrons are released from the surfaces by high energy particles, while during on-ground testing they are provided by a radioactive source (Strontium 90) or an electron gun)"

Farnsworth Multipactor Tube

http://journal.borderlands.com/1988/the-farnsworth-multipactor-tube/
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #15 on: 2012-07-26, 14:42:54 »

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In the circuit at the beginning of this thread, isn't the entire circuit on the leg of the secondary (1:50 transformer) capacitively coupled to the ground rod at the other leg?
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #16 on: 2012-07-26, 16:26:43 »

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Would it be possible for someone to grab the circuit and post it here please, i don't have an account at the other site and cannot see the diagram. O0
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #17 on: 2012-07-26, 16:51:11 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2012-07-26, 16:26:43
Would it be possible for someone to grab the circuit and post it here please, i don't have an account at the other site and cannot see the diagram. O0

See attached.

Hoppy
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #18 on: 2012-07-26, 21:31:51 »

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Cheers Hoppy

OK just to remind anyone building this, it very dangerous using a Li ION cell without a charge control system in place.

Here's a danger diagram.

They can go from cool to red hot in a blink due to the copper anode dissolving and then reforming in the wrong place causing an internal short where the total energy stored can be released in a very short period of time, many houses have burnt down sometimes even having been charged with the correct charger, to do this all you need to do is let the battery go under 2V and then charge it normally, that is all that is required to potentially cause the anode short.
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #19 on: 2012-07-26, 22:39:44 »
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Li ION cells perform better at higher temperatures, so a bad charging regime that increases the cell temperature may well appear to be self-running a circuit that consumes little power over a considerable period of time, such as this circuit from Janost. Peterae is right to raise a warning over this circuit which is potentially very dangerous!

Hoppy
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #20 on: 2012-07-27, 01:14:58 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Why does Janost classify his project a "self runner"?  ???


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #21 on: 2012-07-27, 04:24:42 »
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Perhaps we will learn more from this replication by Woopy (thanks, Woopy!)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRs1z8g0roU&feature=em-uploademail

I've been out of town all day; hope to get back to this very soon.  Interesting developments in the "LENR" arena also...
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #22 on: 2012-07-27, 06:32:09 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-07-27, 01:14:58
Why does Janost classify his project a "self runner"?  ???

I like Woopy's video, simplified circuit in some ways and clear explanations with gusto.  (Thanks again, Woopy!)
 O0

Woopy has LED lights running (load) and is drawing power from two NiMH batteries in series for the power input-- and ALSO THESE SAME BATTERIES ARE BEING CHARGED, at the same time.  Woopy notes the current draw, yet the batteries' voltage is staying constant at 2.50V for 10 hours (he notes).  So this is what is meant by a self-runner; so far anyway.  Woopy says he will check it in the morning.

One might want to substitute a low-leakage cap for the batteries; if this does not change the waveform or behavior.  

Peterae -- note that Woopy has substituted NiMH batteries without a problem; so one does not need to worry so much about Lithium batteries.

Suggest you all download Woopy's vid -- and let's see about replicating, shall we?

The circuit looks to me kind of like a Don Smith type, using a bug-zapper trafo for the step-up and a wall-wart trafo for the step down, but with power re-circulating to charge the batteries.  Clever.
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #23 on: 2012-07-27, 06:57:28 »

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Wow go Whoopy  ;D

In his video of the scope shot, the main waveform is riding on a low Hz frequency as well, this maybe a very good sign.

A Capacitor Test would be a fantastic idea.
   
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Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #24 on: 2012-07-27, 11:15:42 »

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« Last Edit: 2012-07-27, 12:00:42 by Peterae »
   
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