Water electrolysis and heating with AC

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Author Topic: Water electrolysis and heating with AC (Read 44735 times)

Paul-R	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #25 on: 2012-06-28, 16:44:18 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-06-28, 15:23:38 A standing wave of what? Pressure? Electric? Electric. The wave is set up in the 101 plate system such that the plates are positioned where the wave crosses the axis,the y=0 position. It is the electrical potential which cracks the water, and not the current. He uses three frequencies, Keely's 42.8 khz along with one octave down and another signal an octave down on that. (You need to check out Chapter 10).

giantkiller	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #26 on: 2012-06-28, 18:26:45 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1593 Frequency equals matter...	Keely also had a gun that fractured Quartz into sand from a distance. The purchasers of this service scooped up handfuls of gold. Keely was paid 1million dollars and told not to talk. He's my hero. But this is another story... Oh and hutchison disassociates and reassociates matter from a distance too. Same as it every was. Aluminum plates... TTBrown pushes Al with HV. --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

Paul-R	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #27 on: 2012-06-28, 21:27:44 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: giantkiller on 2012-06-28, 18:26:45 Keely's ... my hero. Yes, I agree... and so is Maplins. They have a HF horn which they say runs from 3k to 40k. If it handles 40k within spec, it should do fairly respectably at 42.8k. It is a matter of using a 555 which handles 42.8k easily and putting together an amplifier which can drive up to 75 watt into the horn. Then a canister of water with water level the wavelength of 42.8k, about 3 inches. How do I put together an amp to run with the 555 output pin 3 ?

giantkiller	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #28 on: 2012-06-28, 23:09:41 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1593 Frequency equals matter...	Give a link to the Maplins Horn and we can go from there. And you want square waves? --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

Paul-R	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #29 on: 2012-06-29, 00:13:44 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: giantkiller on 2012-06-28, 23:09:41 Give a link to the Maplins Horn and we can go from there. And you want square waves? The Maplins product numbers are WF56L, WF55K and WF 09K. The plastic horn flare would need to come off. They are made by Visaton. The WF56L product is here: http://www.maplin.co.uk/wide-dispersion-piezo-horn-tweeter-3265 At the moment, the Maplins site is very unstable. It may be better in a few hours. The waves are sound, sine waves. Paul-R. p.s. there is a caveat to be read before powering up. I cannot find it now but I will have it tomorrow, hopefully.

Farrah Day	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #30 on: 2012-06-29, 01:05:28 »
Group: Guest	Quote A standing wave of what? Pressure? Electric? Electric. An electric standing wave? That is your answer?? And that would have a wavelength of how long exactly? This response simply highlights your ignorance in these matters. Probably time to start posting over at energetic forum. You'd be welcomed there with open arms - Murakami's forum survives on this kind of claptrap!

EMdevices	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #31 on: 2012-06-29, 03:22:30 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Quote from: Farrah Day on 2012-06-29, 01:05:28 An electric standing wave? That is your answer?? And that would have a wavelength of how long exactly? This response simply highlights your ignorance in these matters. Probably time to start posting over at energetic forum. You'd be welcomed there with open arms - Murakami's forum survives on this kind of claptrap! Farrah, you know I don't like it when you harass people. Are you sure you are right in what you are saying? I have news for you, you don't know the full story, so allow me to explain. In a conductive medium, the spacial frequency, or wavenumber 'k', (units of [radians/meter]), is also dependent on the conductivity, which greatly SHORTENS THE WAVELENGTH IN SPACE. However, at the same time, a conductive medium GREATLY ATTENUATES a wave front as well. So, having plates close together minimizes the attenuation, so this makes sense. If you want the equations for all of this, look at this link, section 3 titled "Waves in a Conducting Medium", equation (20) http://www.physics.sfsu.edu/~lea/courses/grad/brewster.PDF notice that the term *sqrt(1 + (conductivity/(permetivity radian frequency))^2 )** is added to the standard equation without conductivity. So if conductivity is on the order of 10^6, and w=40 kHz, and e = 1e-10, that term would be = 4e10, and if we take the square root again, we will have a factor of about 200 000, so that's by how much THE WAVELENGTH WOULD SHORTEN IN A CONDUCTIVE MEDIUM COMPARED TO A NON CONDUCTIVE MEDIUM with the given parameters ! Anyway, please try not to be so all knowing, and consider others views carefully before you discard them as "rubbish". EM PS, Permetivity of free space is 8.85e-12, but pure water has a relative permitivity ranging from 90 to 30 perhaps, depending on the temperature, etc.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_permittivity « Last Edit: 2012-06-30, 01:09:57 by EMdevices »

muDped	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #32 on: 2012-06-29, 03:40:52 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	The paper seems to be discussing how reflections occur at a boundary where conductive and non-conductive media meet; such as air and a metallic surface. It is known that an incident RF wave will indeed penetrate a metallic surface by some amount where reflection takes place. Some of the incident radiation may pass through the metallic conductor with great attenuation to emerge at the opposite side. As the wave transits the conductive medium its wavelength is shortened within it. Most of the incident wave is reflected at the boundary however. One must wonder how any wave transits the Boyce device from end to end. Do standing waves actually form at/within the numerous boundaries? Similar to a tuned cavity? --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

EMdevices	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #33 on: 2012-06-29, 03:52:35 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Dumped, A lot of people have been "amazed" at some experiments, where waves can be transmitted inside an enclosed metalic box, and these folk talk about "scalar waves" etc., but in reality these are regular electromagnetic waves and fields that penetrate the box because they have lower frequency, and it's usually the magnetic vector that penetrates the strongest. Yes, waves attenuate greatly through a conductor, but low levels do get through even though it is exponential decay. It's all about the skin depth at a particular frequency. Also, if there are seams in the construction of the box, they can get in very easily through them. I worked an electromagnetic interference problem in the past of exactly this nature. If you look at your computer box, some of the high end ones have the little metalic fingers all around the lid to short out the electromagnetic fields from the inside and keep them from leaking outside. If they do, they can't get their computers certified by the FCC. Low level magnetic fields are the hardest to shield, even with permeable material. If its a pure conductor,forget it, they'll go right through. Just to illustrate, the lowest frequency is obviously DC, and a magnet next to a copper plate has no problems at all permeating the magnetic field through it! Low frequency electric fields is another story, they are well shielded with a faraday cage. At higher frequencies, magnetic fields have a hard time penetrating since the induced eddy currents oppose them. Regarding the Boyce device, I'm not familiar with it at all, but I know about a circuit he shared with us in the past in a "closed" group. I believe that information has made it in the open since. I don't endorse anybody, just to be clear. EM

muDped	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #34 on: 2012-06-29, 09:10:55 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	I concur with your explanations EMdevices. Well said. I recall some discussion several years ago about Bob's 101 plate electrolyzer and it was thought at that time that the principal means of excitation was "longitudinal waves" or the electric field extending the length of the unit. Several people were attempting to replicate the Boyce unit and to get it to operate in the manner which Boyce described but there were no real reports of success. It seemed that only "brute force" electrolysis was attainable. --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

exnihiloest	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #35 on: 2012-06-29, 10:08:56 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Paul-R on 2012-06-28, 16:44:18 Quote A standing wave of what? Pressure? Electric? Electric. The wave is set up in the 101 plate system such that the plates are positioned where the wave crosses the axis,the y=0 position. It is the electrical potential which cracks the water, and not the current. He uses three frequencies, Keely's 42.8 khz along with one octave down and another signal an octave down on that. (You need to check out Chapter 10). Wrong explanation. Water relative permittivity: ε around 80. From from εµ₀v²=1, the electric wave speed in water is v=c/sqrt(80). Wave length: λ=v/f = 783 mtrs at f=42.8 KHz! A standing wave needs at least a half-wave length to exist (between the nodes). The distance between plates is 1mm, which is too low by many orders of magnitude.

Paul-R	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #36 on: 2012-06-29, 10:29:14 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-06-29, 10:08:56 Electric. The wave is set up in the 101 plate system such that the plates are positioned where the wave crosses the axis,the y=0 position. It is the electrical potential which cracks the water, and not the current. He uses three frequencies, Keely's 42.8 khz along with one octave down and another signal an octave down on that. (You need to check out Chapter 10). Wrong explanation. You are correct. I have this wrong. I think I have mixed up two projects at a time when I did not really understand them. Always dodgy to do. The best explanation that I have found is here: http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf Page 34 - "Bob Boyce's high Efficiency electrolyser".

Farrah Day	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #37 on: 2012-06-29, 13:12:39 »
Group: Guest	Quote Anyway, please try not to be so all knowing, and consider others views carefully before you discard them as "rubbish". EM You are right of course EM. Sometimes I let my frustration get the better of me when people come along and post 'speculation' and 'claims' from unreliable sources as 'facts', and then go on as if they know what they are talking about, when in reality they don't have a clue. It does nothing but muddy the waters and promote pseudoscience. I just find this kind of blind faith and mindlessness rather annoying. I will endeavour to hold my tongue.

Farrah Day	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #38 on: 2012-06-29, 14:46:44 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-06-28, 15:36:07 Not exactly the same principle. In yours there is two concentric containers isolated from one another at the position of the AC electrode. No DC can flow from one to the other. In mine there is only one. I don't understand what are the yellow disks with a cross, in the bottom picture. Yellow disks with crosses simply depict LV filament lamps (or LEDs). Yes, I'm using a pulsed or AC signal to induce ionisation of the water molecules. My HV is isolated in that no current will flow, however my AC electrode is not solid as it may appear in the depiction, but an openweave coil, so an internal DC current can indeed flow. ------------------------ Water electrolysis and heating with AC CLELE3.JPG (2019.7 kB, 2664x3066 - viewed 1414 times.)

giantkiller	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #39 on: 2012-06-29, 15:38:19 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1593 Frequency equals matter...	Quote from: Paul-R on 2012-06-29, 00:13:44 The Maplins product numbers are WF56L, WF55K and WF 09K. The plastic horn flare would need to come off. They are made by Visaton. The WF56L product is here: http://www.maplin.co.uk/wide-dispersion-piezo-horn-tweeter-3265 At the moment, the Maplins site is very unstable. It may be better in a few hours. The waves are sound, sine waves. Paul-R. p.s. there is a caveat to be read before powering up. I cannot find it now but I will have it tomorrow, hopefully. Quote High power handling No crossover required Rugged low-cost solution This tweeter is designed to give a wide dispersion pattern and is therefore ideal in stereo hi-fi systems and in high quality disco and PA systems. Piezo tweeters are capacitative therefore automatically reject low frequency power and are inherently high impedance. Therefore, this can be wired directly across a woofer without the need for a crossover. Because modern amps can produce very high frequencies (typically up to 100kHz) it is recommended to wire a 47&ohm; 3W resistor (order code: W47R) in series with each tweeter to limit damaging high frequency resonance. Now why would they give a spec of damaging resonance when in all other posts in OU threads this is poo pooed as nonsense. The 555 produces square wave. This leads to non-coercive noise. Pure sine waves are necessary depending on the control aspects of the target or medium. Certain experiments done controlling the coercion of aether have stated that any extra noise causes dissapation in the effect. This applies here in this thread. It has to be noted that the level of power in conjunction with the signal format is vey important. High power noise can obliterate while low power resonance can also alter the target. Hutchison makes wooden objects jump around between two 6 inch Tesla coils. This exemplifies that free moving objects react to impacts [Action at a distance], whether direct infliction or vectored, nothing new here. With this said the medium can be controlled by the distance between or the angles of the discharge sources and the signal emission. Back to the 555: You can try pushing square waves through an amp to these horns to see what the results are. Might be the wrong signal format for the desired results you are looking for. Since you are needing sine waves try a PC based freq genrator though these might not be the purest of sine waves you need. The problem is you won't know what you are doing wrong. This is the needle in the haystack. This last statement is the one thing that is never correctly defined in any of the [successful] experiments. And since this is the case this lets all the poo poo brains ascend the box of heirarchy to state so. Pun intended... For thousands of years we have had magnets and copper wire. Nobody thought to pass the them by each other. --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

EMdevices	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #40 on: 2012-06-29, 20:53:15 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-06-29, 10:08:56 Electric. The wave is set up in the 101 plate system such that the plates are positioned where the wave crosses the axis,the y=0 position. It is the electrical potential which cracks the water, and not the current. He uses three frequencies, Keely's 42.8 khz along with one octave down and another signal an octave down on that. (You need to check out Chapter 10). Wrong explanation. Water relative permittivity: ε around 80. From from εµ₀v²=1, the electric wave speed in water is v=c/sqrt(80). Wave length: λ=v/f = 783 mtrs at f=42.8 KHz! A standing wave needs at least a half-wave length to exist (between the nodes). The distance between plates is 1mm, which is too low by many orders of magnitude. if we are dealing with conductive medium, the phase velocity is different then the formula above, which assumes no conductivity. In the document I posted in a previous reply to Farrah, on page 7 right above section 3.2, they give the equation v/c = sqrt(2 w e0/ sigma) This is the correct formula to use in a conductive medium to find the wave propagation velocity 'v', or phase velocity. 'c' is the speed of light in a vacum, w = 2 * pi * f, and e0 is the permetivity of vacum 8.85e-12. EM

Paul-R	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #41 on: 2012-06-30, 14:56:07 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: Paul-R on 2012-06-29, 00:13:44 p.s. there is a caveat to be read before powering up. I cannot find it now but I will have it tomorrow, hopefully. Here is that statement. It comes from Keelynet: http://keelynet.com/energy/docx.htm "Verification of Frequency to produce..." paragraph 6 and 7. "Dr. X took periodic readings..." It might be hysterical nonsense,but it might also be a good idea to bear in mind the possibility.

Paul-R	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #42 on: 2012-06-30, 15:26:40 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: giantkiller on 2012-06-29, 15:38:19 The 555 produces square wave. This leads to non-coercive noise. Pure sine waves are necessary Yes. How about the 8038? http://www.datasheetarchive.com/8038%20signal%20generator%20chip-datasheet.html (The first pdf after "Catalog search results".Sorry, I cannot get a directlink to work). Paul-R p.s. I wonder if a new thread is needed. The Prof may be getting very pissed off with us.

PhysicsProf	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #43 on: 2012-06-30, 19:07:59 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3017	Not "pissed off" at all, Paul-R; finding the discussion enlightening actually. Farrah Day - you surprise me with your intriguing device and running it with a Slayer exciter -- have you actually built and tested this thing? Quote from: Farrah Day on 2012-06-29, 14:46:44 Yellow disks with crosses simply depict LV filament lamps (or LEDs). Yes, I'm using a pulsed or AC signal to induce ionisation of the water molecules. My HV is isolated in that no current will flow, however my AC electrode is not solid as it may appear in the depiction, but an openweave coil, so an internal DC current can indeed flow. Finally, here's a fellow who has built a joule-thief and used it to electrolyze water -- evidently electrolysis works with low-f AC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y-s-GE69BQ (jonnydavro)

exnihiloest	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #44 on: 2012-07-01, 11:48:13 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: EMdevices on 2012-06-29, 20:53:15 if we are dealing with conductive medium, the phase velocity is different then the formula above, which assumes no conductivity. In the document I posted in a previous reply to Farrah, on page 7 right above section 3.2, they give the equation v/c = sqrt(2 w e0/ sigma) This is the correct formula to use in a conductive medium to find the wave propagation velocity 'v', or phase velocity. 'c' is the speed of light in a vacum, w = 2 * pi * f, and e0 is the permetivity of vacum 8.85e-12. EM There are big problems with this formula v_φ=c √(2ω*ε0)/σ. 1) the phase velocity tends to infinity when conductivity tends to zero 2) the phase velocity is frequency dependent 3) the order of magnitude is ridiculously small (< 1mm/s at 50 Hz)

Farrah Day	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #45 on: 2012-07-05, 09:17:44 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012-06-30, 19:07:59 Not "pissed off" at all, Paul-R; finding the discussion enlightening actually. Farrah Day - you surprise me with your intriguing device and running it with a Slayer exciter -- have you actually built and tested this thing? Finally, here's a fellow who has built a joule-thief and used it to electrolyze water -- evidently electrolysis works with low-f AC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y-s-GE69BQ (jonnydavro) AC electrolysis, apparently... sort of... yes, but I think technically not. If you look at the gas coming off the cap leg in the video, you will see that it is pulsing at the same frequency as the leds. I guess not many people have experimented with such low frequency AC electrolysis, but in reality at this frequency the cations and anions may actually have time to move and react at the electrodes. But I don't think this is the case as there does appear to be some form of rectification occurring as it is always the same leg that is evolving the H2, whereas if this was true AC electrolysis, the H2 evolving would alternate between each leg. Very interesting nevertheless. Jonny Davro does undertake some quite fascinating and often quite insightful little experiments. Work is still proceeding with my CLE. I have built a unit to test the theory and results are promising but often erratic. The key is the signal I am using to initially ionise the water - the Slayer exciter is just one one of the ccts I'm experimenting with as I'd ideally like to see the effect at very low energies. Work on-going.

PhysicsProf	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #46 on: 2012-07-05, 16:25:52 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3017	Agreed about JonnyDavro! Quote Work is still proceeding with my CLE. I have built a unit to test the theory and results are promising but often erratic. The key is the signal I am using to initially ionise the water - the Slayer exciter is just one one of the ccts I'm experimenting with as I'd ideally like to see the effect at very low energies. Work on-going. Good for you! hope you will keep us posted.

PhysicsProf	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #47 on: 2012-07-05, 17:03:46 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3017	Just came across this post at EF by Lidmotor, posted yesterday: Quote Electrolysis experiment using Super Joule Ringer 2.0 @Jonny I have a MOT that I tried to make work on your circuit and for some reason I can't get my transformer to do ANYTHING! Even setting it up as a plain old Joule Thief doesn't work very well. I don't know what is wrong with it (or me). Soooo--- I decided to just use my boxed up SJR 2.0 and see what happens if I use it for electrolysis. It makes bubbles off just one electrode!! It was very interesting to look at. How can that be? Guys I don't mean little tiny bubbles on one electrode and lots of bubbles on the other. I mean ALL the bubbles were coming off one electrode. How can that be? @PB Your explanation of how this device is putting out a lopsided pulse might account for the interesting effect. I didn't try to burn the bubbles but I imagine that they do. Could we have stumbled on a sort of Stan Meyer thing? Lidmotor

muDped	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #48 on: 2012-07-06, 00:55:31 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	Quote from: LidMotor via transcription I decided to just use my boxed up SJR 2.0 and see what happens if I use it for electrolysis. It makes bubbles off just one electrode!! It was very interesting to look at. How can that be?Huh? Guys I don't mean little tiny bubbles on one electrode and lots of bubbles on the other. I mean ALL the bubbles were coming off one electrode. How can that be? This is a common occurrence when the "plates" of the makeshift electrolyzer are active metals and the current is relatively weak. The Oxygen liberated at the Positive Electrode while still in its atomic state is capable of reacting quickly with the electrode metal to form oxides before any visible bubbles form. If salt water is used as the electrolyte then it will be atomic chlorine at the positive electrode which reacts with the metal to form comounds while eroding the metal. The tell-tale signs of this oxidation are an increasing opacity of the solution as it becomes cloudy or muddied by the metallic compounds which emanate from the positive electrode. All of the oxygen or chlorine is consumed as quickly as it is liberated. In sufficient time the positive electrode will show visible erosion and loss of metal in addition to discoloration. The result is that only hydrogen bubbles form and escape from the solution at the negative electrode which will remain shiny and clean (no discoloration.) The wave applied to the electrolyzer will accomplish electrolysis when it has sufficient DC Offset. --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

Farrah Day	Re: Water electrolysis and heating with AC « Reply #49 on: 2012-07-06, 09:18:40 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Dumped on 2012-07-06, 00:55:31 This is a common occurrence when the "plates" of the makeshift electrolyzer are active metals and the current is relatively weak. The Oxygen liberated at the Positive Electrode while still in its atomic state is capable of reacting quickly with the electrode metal to form oxides before any visible bubbles form. If salt water is used as the electrolyte then it will be atomic chlorine at the positive electrode which reacts with the metal to form compounds while eroding the metal. Agreed. It should also be stated that you don't always get chlorine evolving when using sodium chloride as an electrolyte. I researched this long ago and found that at certain current levels and salt concentrations oxygen was indeed evolving in preference to chlorine.

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