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Author Topic: Faraday's homopolar motor revisited  (Read 71874 times)
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  This may help explain, Gibbs -- an experiment involving two ring magnets, bottom one free to spin -- but it does not!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlUY3snoWI8

Note this question with the vid;  any answer to this?


Professor,

I don't know if Broli did that experiment and saw the bottom magnet spin, but I think the bottom magnet won't spin regardless of there is current drawing or not. 

   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
The field IS affixed to the magnet. If you move the magnet in any direction, the B field moves with it. This is not the same things as spinning the magnet on its axis and seeing the the B field does not change.

So, in your experiment you apply a current to the wire, which runs across the B field. If the B field was held stationary, then the wire would deflect. Since the magnet (and hence B field) and wire are attached, I believe there will be no movement.

Simple test to do.


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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It does move!!!

Movement was detected.  I just make a rectangular loop and tape a magnet on the bottom of the loop.  The loop is being hung.  Current is applied to the loop.  The force is very small so I have to pulse it like a swing to see the movement build up. 

   
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Steve, regarding your question when the magnet is replaced with a shorted disc:

What direction does the guy say the bottom magnet rotates?

To my thinking, it should rotate in the same direction as the rotating disc.

Poynt, the guy's (broli123) question was:
Note this question with the vid;  any answer to this?

Quote
Quote
""Replace the rotating magnet on the drill by a conducting disk that is shorted out from center to perimeter to form a closed circuit. Put a small bulb in this circuit to confirm there's current flow when rotating the drill above the magnet This is basically faraday's homopolar generator. But the thing I want to get at is showing what happens to the bottom magnet that can rotate freely. It should spin in the other direction. According to newton's third law..."question by Broli123"

So he predicts the bottom magnet will spin in the "other direction", you suggest " it should rotate in the same direction as the rotating disc" -- and I think it may spin in the same direction - or, the bottom magnet may not spin at all! 
 
Looks like we need an experiment to resolve the question.
   
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It does move!!!

Movement was detected.  I just make a rectangular loop and tape a magnet on the bottom of the loop.  The loop is being hung.  Current is applied to the loop.  The force is very small so I have to pulse it like a swing to see the movement build up. 



Yes, we expect that simple loop to move, as the magnetic field is quite independent as we saw also in the video.

Care to do the homopolar motor or generator experiments now?   delineated above; won't repeat here.
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
It does move!!!

Movement was detected.  I just make a rectangular loop and tape a magnet on the bottom of the loop.  The loop is being hung.  Current is applied to the loop.  The force is very small so I have to pulse it like a swing to see the movement build up.  

To verify the movement is aided by the magnet, replace the magnet with an equivalent mass, and try again. Don't be surprised if it still moves.


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Just to verify the movement is aided by the magnet, replace the magnet with an equivalent mass, and try again.

There's no need for that. I just used my hand  to hold the magnet.  I do feel a force.  So there is action reaction, therefore, my setup cannot move.   I also agree that the direction magnet should be the same of shorted disc.

What I found is that force on a current carrying wire in a B field is just attraction repulsion of a magnetic loop.   

   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
There's no need for that. I just used my hand  to hold the magnet.  I do feel a force.
Actually you do need to do it if you want to be sure the magnet has anything to do with the result. The idea was to remove the magnet completely from the experiment, and try with just the wire and an equivalent weight.

Quote
What I found is that force on a current carrying wire in a B field is just attraction repulsion of a magnetic loop.  
Not sure what you mean here.


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Gibbs,


Poynt's description of the field position being dependent upon the magnet's position is quite correct. Any motion you detected may show that the amount of movement or even the ability to move may be relative to the experiment's orientation to the Earth's poles.

The wire should move, perhaps even better, with nothing attached.

I feel the need to elaborate ....

You can say the field is affixed to the magnet or not affixed. The reason is there is no viable explanation of what a magnetic field is, other than some vector math to calculate changes in some unknown variable based upon location relative to the magnet.

Can you say the wake of a speeding boat is affixed to the boat?

Can you say the light beam created by focusing light through a lens is affixed to the lens?

I suppose the wake could be defined as part of the speeding boat because it wouldn't be there unless the boat was moving relative to the water and we weren't able to see or feel the water unless indirectly by noticing the motions of another boat. If that was the case, we could just denounce the existence of water.

Also, focused light affixed to the lens used to create it? You could and probably would say the light was part of the lens if you didn't understand the nature of light or, at least, think you understood the nature of light.

It wasn't that long ago we thought magnetism could have no effect upon light and light no effect upon magnetism. Now, almost every computer hard drive on the planet uses the latter effect, and some, also the former.

We can say almost anything we wish about magnetism as we can't really define it well until we can see and feel the water directly (reference to speeding boat, again).

The stuff contained within the space calculated using vector math that is a magnetic field is not part of the magnet nor is it affixed to the magnet except when you consider it to be the result of the magnet and an unknown media, plane or some other factor.

Saying you feel the reaction force on a magnet is an easy to understand way of putting it but that raises more questions.

I suggest picking an understandable explanation of magnetism that works in all cases then sticking with it. That is my choice  O0
« Last Edit: 2012-04-10, 03:51:35 by WaveWatcher »
   
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Thanks men,

Yes, it is possible that the earth's magnetic field is involved.  But even if the conductor is using the earth's magnetic field, it is still pushing on the earth and therefore taking the earth's momentum.   I think I'm starting to understand what makes homopolar works.  It is the relative motion between two bodies.  I haven't have much luck in making a homopolar so i will concentrate on it.  The concept may involve asymmetric capacitor, iron aether wind propulsion and more . lol 

   
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Gibbs,

For the homopolar motor and your moving wire... Lorentz explains both nicely.
   
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Gibbs,

For the homopolar motor and your moving wire... Lorentz explains both nicely.

The Lorentz forces work out nicely, agreed...  But not so sure about that angular momentum is conserved!
  unless it somehow links to the earth's B field...  but that I can restrict also I think (at home).

Tonight I completed two simple homopolar (HP) motors, both worked after a little playing with them.  Late again here; will post a photo tomorrow.
   
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...
Conductor rotate in a magnetic field generate voltage but magnetic field rotates while conductor remains stationary does not generate voltage.  Hm...
...

A magnetic field never rotates. No referential frame can be attached to a field. A magnetic field is just vectors giving B at points in space. They can dynamically change from location to location giving the illusion of a movement, as a light spot moving along a wall when nothing is really moving on the wall.

Moreover when a magnetic field source is rotating around its axis of magnetic symmetry, as a disk magnet about its axle, the field remains strictly identical to itself, i.e. the field remains the same in all space points, so the effect is the same as if the magnetic source was at rest. This is why there is no difference in the Faraday disk when the permanent magnet is rotating or at rest.

Now the question of relativity and reaction. The Lorentz magnetic force is: F = q*VxB.
The most important point is that V is the charge speed relative to the observer, neither relative to the field source nor to the field (the latter being an absurdity). This point is generally not understood and the cause of the urban legend of the absence of reaction.
It means that the action/reaction applies between the observer and the charge, not between the charge and the field or the field source (the magnetic field acts just like a catalyst).
When this is understood, the functioning of the Faraday generator or motor becomes clear and without paradox.

For the case of the Faraday disk generator, we have a conductor disk rotating in a constant magnetic field which is perpendicular to the surface of the disk.
From the viewpoint of an observer at rest, e.g. linked to the sliding contacts connecting the axle to the rim of the disk, the electrons of the disk have a tangential linear speed V and so, the observer sees the electrons deviated by a radial Lorentz force which is not counterbalanced by the electrons of the sliding contacts at rest, therefore a current flows.
From the viewpoint of electrons on the disk, there is an electric field E=BxV which is the Lorentz transform of the magnetic field, thanks to the rules of Einstein's relativity. So the electrons feel an electric force F=q*E which is the same as the Lorentz force viewed by the observer at rest.
Now about the reaction:
From the viewpoint of our observer at rest, when a current flows, the electrons of the disk are seen going radially through the magnetic field. So the observer sees that a Lorentz force is acting on them transversally, which means here tangentially, opposing the mechanical force that rotates the disk.
From the viewpoint of the electrons on the disk, they are always submitted to an electric field E'=BxV' but now V' is the resultant speed of the electrons moving under the tangential mechanical force of the disk (as previously) AND the radial electric field. Therefore there is a restoring force opposing the mechanical force, which is the tangential component of F'=q*E'.


« Last Edit: 2012-04-10, 10:20:37 by exnihiloest »
   
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Thanks Exn,

It does makes sense.  One question I have is the Faraday disk does not change polarity.  The electric field E = BxV , V does change direction when we rotate it CW or CCW, that means E changes polarity?

   
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  I'll let exn or someone handle that, Gibbs -- we're on the road again!

Here's a shot of the small hp motor I completed before leaving;  works just as well with an AA battery, and runs for a VERY long time (surprisingly stable).  Neo magnet under the battery, plus one wire -- that's all!
   
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Thanks Exn,

It does makes sense.  One question I have is the Faraday disk does not change polarity.  The electric field E = BxV , V does change direction when we rotate it CW or CCW, that means E changes polarity?



Gibbs,

I'm wondering what you are seeing. The polarity of the induced voltage can be reversed by reversing either the excitation or the direction of rotation, not both. At least, in all of these I have constructed  :o
   
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Here is a test that may shed some light on things:
   
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Well professor, If he doesn't you will have to be recommissioned as a teacher. lol

I'll try your set up.  Don't have neo mag but I'll improvise.

 ----------------------------------------

WaveW,

I just read it off Wiki that the output voltage never changes polarity.  I've been thinking about it all day long.


-------------------------------------------

Harvey,

Very nice point you made there.  I've also thought of this too.  My intuition said that only one of them work.



   
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I made the professor's version.  Keep wondering why it doesn't work, then found out the top is not abraded for conduction. lol  I have to cover the magnet with aluminum foil.

Next to the picture is my design of some serious high power turbo homopolar.  It sure is high power because I zapped it with 18V and it only move back and forth. lol  Probably too heavy and unbalance. 

   
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WaveW,

I just read it off Wiki that the output voltage never changes polarity.  I've been thinking about it all day long.


I see.  By the words 'does not change' it means the polarity doesn't require commutation or polarity reversal to make it rotate.
   
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I see.  By the words 'does not change' it means the polarity doesn't require commutation or polarity reversal to make it rotate.

Um... I mean this

----------
Description and operation
[edit] Disk-type generator
Basic Faraday disc generator

This device consists of a conducting flywheel rotating in a magnetic field with one electrical contact near the axis and the other near the periphery. It has been used for generating very high currents at low voltages in applications such as welding, electrolysis and railgun research. In pulsed energy applications, the angular momentum of the rotor is used to store energy over a long period and then release it in a short time.

In contrast to other types of generators, the output voltage never changes polarity. The charge separation results from the Lorentz force on the free charges in the disk. The motion is azimuthal and the field is axial, so the electromotive force is radial. The electrical contacts are usually made through a "brush" or slip ring, which results in large losses at the low voltages generated. Some of these losses can be reduced by using mercury or other easily liquified metal or alloy (gallium, NaK) as the "brush", to provide essentially uninterrupted electrical contact.

If the magnetic field is provided by a permanent magnet, the generator works regardless of whether the magnet is fixed to the stator or rotates with the disc. Before the discovery of the electron and the Lorentz force law, the phenomenon was inexplicable and was known as the Faraday paradox.

-----------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generators
   
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...
The electric field E = BxV , V does change direction when we rotate it CW or CCW, that means E changes polarity?
...
Hi Gibbs,

The polarity changes when the disk rotates CW or CCW. This is easily testable: you just need to rotate a conductor disk magnet with a driller while touching the center and the rim with the probes of a voltmeter.
It is what the equation says: E=BxV is a vectorial product, so if B or V is reversed E is reversed, if B and V are reversed, E remains the same.

   
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It is a classical Faraday motor whose Harvey gave the schematics in the left view (no effect is to be expected for the right view):


Due to the electric field from the battery between the center of the disk magnet and the rim, there is a radial current in the neo. The electrons are crossing the magnetic field so the Lorentz force is tangential. The electrons transfer the Lorentz force applying on them to the lattice of the metal and make rotate the magnet which would accelerate indefinitely if there was no friction.
Under the effect of braking due to losses or if we try to extract a mechanical work or during the phase of angular acceleration, there is a reaction force from the disk lattice on the electrons. Therefore the electrons move not only radially under the effect of the voltage, but also partly tangentially due to the mechanical force from the rotating metal lattice in which they are embedded. It follows that the Lorentz force onto the electrons acquires a radial component that opposes the electric force provided by the battery, and so more current is needed to maintain the rotation. Action/reaction works perfectly.

   
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Gibbs,

I see now which sentence is your reference.

This is a typical Wiki problem. The sentence was written referring to the commutation or it is written by one of those fools thinking a varying DC amplitude is an alternating polarity(AC). As long as the voltage doesn't cross zero (the reference point) it is still DC.

The first time I ran across the AC/DC argument was from a previously highly respected electrical engineer who declared that the applied transformer primary current was AC because the secondary output was AC. The transformer fried anyway  ;D
   
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Exn,

I'll do the experiment today to see if polarity change.

I've tried to analyzed the forces on Harvey's drawing.  The red line indicates Lorentz force pushing the loop out of the page.  However, notice that the blue force on the magnet section is pushing the magnet into the page.  If we add the blue to the red, the forces exactly cancel out to zero!

qV x B , V is constant so we can use q X B
q is just proportional to the segment , there are more segments in red than blue
but, even if we make the loop larger, more segment would take in less magnetic field lines.  Since field line is conservative

q(blue) x B = Q(red) x b

Therefore, the conclusion is... the net force is zero! no movement.  ;)
   
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