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Author Topic: Voltage from heat in electrochemical cells without chemical reactions  (Read 22033 times)
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img  exnihiloest
Voltage from heat in electrochemical cells without chemical reactions « on: 2012-03-11, 14:47:58 »
Group: Guest

A new academic candidate against the second law of thermodynamics is appearing:
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/48889
http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.0161

Although this cell uses graphen, the principle is the effect of heat upon the kinetic energy of ions, and this idea is not new and can concern many other kinds of cells. Near a century ago the Romanian physicist Vasilescu-Karpen invoked this effect as being the voltage source of his electrochemical cells whose one model is still working: http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2010/12/25/karpen-pile/.
It was a kind of Maxwell's daemon that contradicted the second law of thermodynamics, nevertheless several papers from him were published at the French Academy of Science (at this time the scientists were more open to challenging ideas). They are in French. He also filed a short patent that I translated: http://tinyurl.com/3yodn5q

The new article presented at physicsworld.com should make us revisit Karpen's work and experiment the principle.
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Project "kill a battery" « Reply #1 on: 2013-03-18, 00:04:31 »
Group: Guest

Peukert's law stated the battery capacity C = I^k x t .  However, the capacity is related to a fix amount of chemical energy in the battery, therefore it does not make sense that this energy varies.  For (chemical) energy conservation, k must be 1.  If k is less than 1, then we know the battery haven't used all of its stored chemical energy.  If k = 1, then the energy is all used up.  If k>1, then there is excess energy of unknown origin.  Since this law is empirical, we must accept it over energy(chemical) conservation.

So I thought can we actually kill a battery.  I've shorted a 9V battery till the volt meter reading is .2 V and continue shorting it till it completely empty.  However, the instrument cannot detect current beyond the meter's ability.  I connected the dead battery to the gate of a MOSFET to detect this current.  Lights and current from another battery source is monitored based on how much energy the dead battery put out.   The shorting will continue and recheck if the battery is truly...undead.lol
   
img  muDped
Re: Voltage from heat in electrochemical cells without chemical reactions « Reply #2 on: 2013-03-18, 02:20:11 »

Group: Tinkerer
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3055
Ex, Gibbs,

While on the topic of battery chemistry and
such, have either of you read this document?**

Hearing your take on it would be quite
interesting.

** Unfortunately, the link contains something
that the forum is blocking so the link will not
access the desired document.

The document will be found on this page.

Scroll down the listing of document links to
the document titled: "Dark Matter or Dark Energy."

The following document regarding negative resistors
in batteries is the one:

XXXXXX'S Method for forming Negative Resistors in Batteries

Other documents on the page may be worth looking
at as well.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Voltage from heat in electrochemical cells without chemical reactions « Reply #3 on: 2013-03-18, 10:48:47 »
Group: Guest
@dumped

Sorry but I must to decline anything coming from Tom Bearden. After many years of unsuccessful results from many experimenters, this guy still pretends that the MEG provides energy from the ZPE. Unable to lead real experiments with precise measurements, he makes only long fuzzy speeches, not operational, aligning many words one after the other without meaningful sentences, like droppings along a trail goats. 
I have ceased to waste time with him.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Voltage from heat in electrochemical cells without chemical reactions « Reply #4 on: 2013-03-18, 10:49:09 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: DeepCut on 2013-03-18, 10:19:03
I'm getting a 404 at that link.
...

Here is the new link:
http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Exp%e9riences/Piles/

(only the first document is in English).
   
img  tinman
Re: Voltage from heat in electrochemical cells without chemical reactions « Reply #5 on: 2013-03-18, 10:57:18 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2013-03-18, 10:48:47
@dumped

Sorry but I must to decline anything coming from Tom Bearden. After many years of unsuccessful results from many experimenters, this guy still pretends that the MEG provides energy from the ZPE. Unable to lead real experiments with precise measurements, he makes only long fuzzy speeches, not operational, aligning many words one after the other without meaningful sentences, like droppings along a trail goats. 
I have ceased to waste time with him.


Like they say -if you cant dazzle them with brilliance,baffle them with bullsh*t.
It would seem that it work's for him and many other's,as the money keeps rolling in.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Voltage from heat in electrochemical cells without chemical reactions « Reply #6 on: 2013-03-18, 12:31:07 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: DeepCut on 2013-03-18, 11:55:24
So the ambient temperature keeps the ions moving.

Ions collide with the graphene and the kinetic energy is turned into electricity ?

Can someone explain in imbecile terms how this contradicts the 2nd law ?
...

"The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system never decreases".
If you isolate the cell and its circuit from the environment and for example use it to charge a capacitor, the temperature of the cell will decrease. The energy is conserved but heat is 100% converted into useable work, the electrical energy in the capacitor. This implies that the entropy decreases.

A corrolary of the second law of thermodynamics is that no useable work can be extracted from a single thermal bath (heat engines needs two sources at different temperatures and are limited to the carnot cycle).
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Voltage from heat in electrochemical cells without chemical reactions « Reply #7 on: 2013-03-18, 22:59:14 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: Dumped on 2013-03-18, 02:20:11
Ex, Gibbs,

While on the topic of battery chemistry and
such, have either of you read this document?**

Hearing your take on it would be quite
interesting.

** Unfortunately, the link contains something
that the forum is blocking so the link will not
access the desired document.

The document will be found on this page.

Scroll down the listing of document links to
the document titled: "Dark Matter or Dark Energy."

The following document regarding negative resistors
in batteries is the one:

XXXXXX'S Method for forming Negative Resistors in Batteries

Other documents on the page may be worth looking
at as well.

Thanks Dumped,

Well, I read that the Peukert's effect is partly diffusion and partly internal resistance.  This seems to make sense, however, I am looking and hoping present of some tunneling effect.  If so, current should be steady out after certain value. 

   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Voltage from heat in electrochemical cells without chemical reactions « Reply #8 on: 2013-03-21, 15:27:42 »
Group: Guest
So, the battery has been shorted out for a while now.  The voltage keep climbing back up so I have to go to another testing method. 

This time a 10 KOhm POT is loading a single dead double A battery.  the voltage steady out at 21 mV.  That's about 2.1 uA.  I cranked the pot down till the voltage reading is 7 mV.  After a while, I crank it back up to 10 KOhm.  The voltage now climbing back to 21 mV.  I will continue to monitor if the day temperature has effect on this reading. 


   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Voltage from heat in electrochemical cells without chemical reactions « Reply #9 on: 2013-03-25, 22:27:50 »
Group: Guest
Picking up from the last episode.  I dialed the POT down to 500 Ohms and observed for a few days now.  The current reading did drop from 2 uA to 1.9 uA.  It's a sign of non perpetual energy source.   However, there is a fluctuation in current on different time of day.  It is low in the morning and get higher during the day.  I thought it could be the DMM haven't warm up in the morning.  I have 2 DMMs and it reads the same.  I throw one of them into the freezer to simulate warm up problem.  It wasn't the DMM.  One theory is the thermoelectric effect.  The heat must retain inside the battery so it heat up slower than the rest of the circuit between day and night. This creates a Peltier junction.  So I took a hair dryer and point it at the battery.  The current did increased.  I thought I'm out of luck.  Then I one last argue that if I heat up the rest of the circuit but not the battery, the voltage would drop if it's thermoelectric.  The voltage... did not drop.

   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Voltage from heat in electrochemical cells without chemical reactions « Reply #10 on: 2013-03-27, 13:18:43 »
Group: Guest
I was convinced that this is something.  After some thought of how to scale this up to usable power, I figure out that its power is proportional to surface area.  Like battery or solar cell, connect series for voltage, increase surface area per cell for current.  The heat is light in this case.  I guess dry cell with micro fabrication is the way, but that falls into business and production. 

Yet I have a thought there is something related.  A polarized capacitor is a non chemical battery.  It has high surface area and could be bought off the shelf easily.  I waited till this morning to use a hair dryer. lol  A 50K Ohms is put across a 4700 uF cap.  It is then heated with the hair dryer.  Voltage across the resistance increase similar to the battery experiment.  Wonderful indeed.
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Voltage from heat in electrochemical cells without chemical reactions « Reply #11 on: 2013-04-03, 20:22:58 »
Group: Guest
The battery connecting to 500 Ohms jumped from 2uA to 6uA now.  No doubt it has got warmer than last week so it is obvious due to temperature.  Now we need to see if this is chemical reaction.  As a general rule, reaction double every 10 degrees Kelvin.  I'll try to use this since can't think of anything else.  So far current should go down with time because reactant is being used up or oxide layer gets thicker.  So far so good.
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Voltage from heat in electrochemical cells without chemical reactions « Reply #12 on: 2013-05-14, 03:52:23 »
Group: Guest
All the shorted battery reaching .6uA through 500 Ohms resistance and locked.  It's been several weeks and I don't think it'll go down anytime for a while. 

This inspired me to make a new quest: "How much energy can you get out of a battery".

I've set up an experiment.  Two AA series battery with 294 OHms and two AA parallel battery with 147 OHms.  They both brand new out of the box.  I'm logging the voltage from time to time and calculate the total energy extracted from the battery.  The average amp hour should be 700-1000 mah .  The energy content should be roughly around 1A x 3600 sec x 1.4V = 5040 Joules each battery. 

Will the battery gives out 5040 Joules?  Will the battery exceed it?  How many joules will the battery exceed? 

   
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