Pulsing Monofilar wire

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Author Topic: Pulsing Monofilar wire (Read 9877 times)

Peterae	Pulsing Monofilar wire « on: 2010-01-20, 17:02:59 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	First Test is to Pulse a 1 Meter length of wire with 2 fet stages phase delayed from 0 to 800nS The master frequency was 100khz, Pulse Width 35nS Coil Power Supply set to 20 Volts, Wire had a 20 Ohm carbon Resistor in series. The peaks are at No Pk Time Difference Spans 1 129-130nS 2nS 2 203nS 73nS 1nS 3 298-299nS 95nS 2nS 4 405-406nS 106nS 2nS 5 483-484nS 77nS 2nS 6 561-563nS 77nS 3nS 7 659-661nS 96nS 2nS 8 742-743nS 81nS 2nS This chart plots the current vs delay phase ------------------------ Pulsing Monofilar wire PHvsI1MW.jpg (57.68 kB, 799x491 - viewed 656 times.) « Last Edit: 2010-01-21, 16:26:08 by Peterae »

Peterae	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #1 on: 2010-01-21, 15:45:30 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Same Wire, Same Test but @ 10kHz I thought these would be roughly the same, but they are not, so it looks like the master pulse frequency also alters the peak current drawn during phase shift. The Peaks are at No Pk Time Difference Spans 1 123-124nS 2nS 2 218nS 94nS 1nS 3 304-305nS 86nS 2nS 4 409-411nS 104nS 3nS 5 500-501nS 89nS 2nS 6 600-603nS 99nS 4nS 7 691-692nS 88nS 2nS 8 781-784nS 89nS 4nS ------------------------ Pulsing Monofilar wire PHvsI1MW10khz.jpg (69.49 kB, 800x481 - viewed 617 times.) « Last Edit: 2010-01-21, 16:28:50 by Peterae »

Grumpy	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #2 on: 2010-01-21, 16:23:10 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	does the impedance change?

Peterae	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #3 on: 2010-01-21, 16:34:10 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	A very good question grumpy, i would say yes, how can i measure this accurately and plot it. Because this would be very important to understand. Edit it sounds stupid of me to ask, i think what i should be asking is what else could be causing changes and what tests would you put forward for me to study this phase delay behavior.

Peterae	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #4 on: 2010-01-21, 16:50:03 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Also this is basically the experiment that lead me to the explosions in the wire, but something more was at work, i was getting false triggering of my fets which was basically misfiring the coil in random bursts which in turn was creating the conditions for the explosions, now maybe it could be because the impedance was swinging massively and the side effect was the implosion energy inside the wire. Note the above tests are carried out at 20v to the coil, but if i increase this above 50v all hell breaks loose, my controller starts crashing, and i get the re-triggering that leads to the explosions.

Grumpy	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #5 on: 2010-01-21, 17:14:25 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: Peterae on 2010-01-21, 16:34:10 A very good question grumpy, i would say yes, how can i measure this accurately and plot it. Because this would be very important to understand. Edit it sounds stupid of me to ask, i think what i should be asking is what else could be causing changes and what tests would you put forward for me to study this phase delay behavior. Google how to measure displacement current when the impedance goes sky high, the energy can not get into the wire also, if the impedance is swning like a screen door in a huricane, the permittivitty and permeability of "space" may also be changing which may imply that the density of the medium is also changing...

Grumpy	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #6 on: 2010-01-21, 17:19:36 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: Peterae on 2010-01-21, 16:50:03 Also this is basically the experiment that lead me to the explosions in the wire, but something more was at work, i was getting false triggering of my fets which was basically misfiring the coil in random bursts which in turn was creating the conditions for the explosions, now maybe it could be because the impedance was swinging massively and the side effect was the implosion energy inside the wire. Note the above tests are carried out at 20v to the coil, but if i increase this above 50v all hell breaks loose, my controller starts crashing, and i get the re-triggering that leads to the explosions. move the fets off-plane and away from the coil Might try stacking a bunch of books between the coil and the FETs. changing "space" can easily trigger switches

darkspeed	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #7 on: 2010-01-21, 19:29:52 »
Group: Guest	G, you think his gates were working like antennas and retriggering? That would in theory cause the fets to run up to their maximum switch time, i think irf840's for example will cycle around 19.9mhz

Grumpy	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #8 on: 2010-01-21, 19:45:49 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: darkspeed on 2010-01-21, 19:29:52 G, you think his gates were working like antennas and retriggering? That would in theory cause the fets to run up to their maximum switch time, i think irf840's for example will cycle around 19.9mhz like when FET's are subjected to excessive radiation, but not exactly. Would be intersting to see if nuclear-hardened FET's exhibit the same effects. BT's should have less of a problem, as I recall. Basically, the radiative BS (bull shit) moves through the FET and knocks stuff loose which triggers it to conduct like a short. The radiative BS has a "range" and it is not so far. A few feet away and getting it off-plane, or a lot of "stuff" between the FETs and the source should make all the difference. another option is to put metal plastic metal plastic arond the FET. Every time the BS goes through a different material it has to give up some juice. One more option is to try to absorb the BS with a dc-fed coil over the outside.

Peterae	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #9 on: 2010-01-21, 20:44:40 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	The trouble with moving the coil further away is that i need to use longer wires that connect to the fet's, but i can try it i guess. The re-triggering is a problem for me to study, in my first controller, i used dip siwtches to set the delays to the PW and Phase and managed to scope the re-triggering on the gate so it appeared that the re-trigger was being caused in the fet driver itself. with the next controller it's virtually impossible to get my scope in to monitor these as it's all suface mount and at the bottom of a ally diecast box, since i moved to this new controller the re-triggering is much less, but the problem here is that i need the re-triggering to study the explosions in the wire effect, which i now cant do with the new controller, now when i wind the voltage up high enough to cause the re-triggering my fets get destroyed because the voltage has to be higher to enable the re-triggering, re-triggering causes the fet to switch on much more and at higher voltages they get destroyed almost instantly. Now ultimately it is the explosions in the wire i want to study, now imagine this, i have quiet fast rise and fall times with my setup, and the re-triggering causes large random bursts of fast phase shifted pulses, so maybe the effect of these fast random phase shifted pulses are altering enormously the parameters of the coil in such a way to cause havoc almost whiplashing space time or whatever. I keep thinking about the filament in a valve at power up, it twangs, these explosions are the only thing i have seen come close, if there really is a kick i feel i am close, but what i need now to do is not fire random fast pulses to get the explosions i need to find a controlled way of producing them, then the next thing is power production. Something i need maybe to do is work out what type of energy is causing the re-triggering, maybe time to find a way of monitoring the air for energy bursts and fast magnetic fields. Oh i forgot the say that the Explosion in the wire experiment used a diode across the coil, which i dont have in the above experiments.

Peterae	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #10 on: 2010-01-21, 21:31:30 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Just in case new comers don't know what i am talking about when i mention the Explosion Experiment here is the video [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwtPIennXP4[/youtube] Here is another video that i have never shown publicly because it didn't come out. The explosions in the wire were not audible to my ear until i place the bar magnet next to the coil in the video, but the strange thing is the microphone picked them up before i placed the magnet close, so in the video you can hear them all the time. i am guessing i had the mike a lot closer than i had it in the previous experiment and therefore the mike picked them up even when they were not audible to my ear because the explsion is magnetic in nature, although i guess the mike in these headphones has to be ceramic not magnet based? [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6eDKuF8n44[/youtube]

Grumpy	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #11 on: 2010-01-21, 21:46:06 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	If you have a vtvm, try ION's RE detector. If not, try a cap charged to 50v and a 10 foot long piece of wire on each cap lead. there are other not so well-known means of detection: use something that responds to "vibration" like a piezo speaker - the little ones in toys (buzzer) - or tuning forks Why? No comment.

Peterae	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #12 on: 2010-01-22, 13:54:56 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Here's a FFT video of the phase being cycled between 0 and 300nS using a monfilar coil wound onto a pen. The psu is set to about 56 volts if i go much higher then my controller starts doing weird things, hopefully one of you clever guys can tell me why i have 3 bands of noise on the fft at certain phase settings, and then also sometimes i see very large narrow pulses show on the fft. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kakY7tjgNco[/youtube] Peter

Peterae	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #13 on: 2010-01-22, 16:34:08 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Another Test With this test i have set the delay phase to a constant value where i seem to get spurious pulses and then i start increasing the frequency, unfortunately i went to high on the drive frequency and it killed my controller in the process. GRRRR This time i was scoping across the coil [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie5mJaoMKrA[/youtube]

Peterae	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #14 on: 2010-01-24, 16:00:20 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Another Test Monofilar test I used 40v supply voltage to avoid the re-triggering, draw was 2-3ma. The coil had a 20 Ohm resistor in series, the phase was preset to the value stated in the video. 2 Tests one with an iron core and one without The pulse was present during this test, the second scope channel had a 100 Ohm resistor across it's probe tip to monitor radiated power. This was without a core [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Ini9VVR9U[/youtube] This Test used a drill bit for a core [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjDiGc9HD_g[/youtube] Peter

poynt99	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #15 on: 2010-02-04, 01:32:03 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Peter and all, Here is a paper that I think will be very helpful for reducing or eliminating parasitic oscillation and re-triggering of pulsed MOSFET's. .99 ------------------------ APT0402.pdf (224.67 kB - downloaded 342 times.) --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

BEP	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #16 on: 2010-02-04, 11:50:18 »
Group: Guest	That paper was excellent work. I wonder if that would give you aperiodic oscillations ? :

Peterae	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #17 on: 2010-02-04, 20:41:32 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Cheers Poynt Handy info indeed

Grumpy	Re: Pulsing Monofilar wire « Reply #18 on: 2010-02-04, 21:07:34 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2010-02-04, 11:50:18 That paper was excellent work. I wonder if that would give you aperiodic oscillations ? : perisitic oscillations can be eliminated with a ferrite bead and resistor : hmm switching transients...

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